Conservatives Battle Liberals In The Classroom

[rdean]

I'd say almost half of the teachers in my school vote Republican. And most of them send their kids to private school. What's that tell ya?

That they shouldn't be teachers. Thank you for proving my point. Much appreciated.

 

[rdean]

I didn't say "drilling" was bad, but it can become bad very fast. By concentrating on "memorizing" you take away the "fun" in learning. Kids learn to hate math because they aren't taught the joy of problem solving.

Alas, you cannot reliably solve problems with a calculator unless you can solve them without a calculator. The calculator has become central to teaching math, to the point that children cannot perform any math without it and have no clue when they punch the wrong keys that they have the wrong answer.
Kids learn to hate math because too many elementary education teachers spout nonsense like "Don't worry if it confuses you, math is hard." and "I was never any good at math."


Where do you get this crap? From some liberal rag disguised as news? Talk about indoctrination.

Sorry, wrong answer. How were those statistics compiled? How was the questionnaire worded? These are critical issues. Asking a scientist
Do you vote
a - Always Republican
b - Always Democrat
c - It depends on the candidate
could easily get a result of "c" from any reasonable person.
And then be used by a pollster to show only a small percent of the group polled were "Republicans"

Many conservatives are the last people who should be teaching children. Because they aren't teaching. They are performing "indoctrination".

Many liberals are the last people who should be teaching children. Because they aren't teaching. They are performing "indoctrination".

What you need are Teachers to do the teaching.

Hey, hey, hey-

Now you just leave Deanie-weenie alone!

Spanking him is my job, after all I selected him as the dumbest poster on USMB.

(And we try to encourage him, part of his therapy)

Still waiting for that first "spank". So far, you have missed every single time.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Here is the original quote to which you refer:
" The document presented standards for grades K–12, including algebra. The underlying goals of the standards—never made clear to the general public—were social, not academic."

Never made clear to the general public is what I take issue with. That's always the start of a snow job.

The article is by Sandra Stotsky. Sandra Stotsky is a professor of education reform at the University of Arkansas and holds the 21st Century Chair in Teacher Quality. Would you like to compare your credentials to hers?

Don't know her. Do you usually make a practice of agreeing with folks with enough titles behind their name, or only when they seem to support your arguments?



Nothing wrong with that.




Your quoted article owes it to the reader to actually list these questionable goals. The above section reads like the start of a conspiracy theory. The article in full is not much better.

"University education departments began to tell future grammar school teachers that they should replace the traditional teacher-centered curriculum, aimed at producing educated citizens who embraced a common American ethic, with a new, child-centered approach that treats every pupil’s “personal development” as different and special.

Nothing wrong here. Teachers have known for years that students learn, and respond, to different methods of teaching. That's why a really good teacher is willing to change up their methods from time to time to reach a particular class. I've had to do it even at the University level.

The fault lies in your failure to see the bigger picture, in all of education, and the devolution of society.

That quote tells me pretty much all I need to know about you.

I haven't seen anyone do this many bends and turns since the last time I played Twister.

It seems clear that you are not educable on this topic, fine, but your ability to ignore the 800-pound gorilla is astounding:
Since the 'progressives' took over education, , the scores of American students have plummeted.

You get full credit for effectuating 'Liberal Libretto' rule #6 b:

6. Claim to misunderstand, obfuscate, deflect and change the subject, and, if all else fails, allege that you misspoke.
a. Remember, left-wingers may make a ‘mistake,’ for right-wingers, it is a lie!
b. When relating a series of events that lead to a conclusion, if it is a right-wing conclusion, we must never see the connection!
c. Any exposure of detrimental information must be referred to as either ‘fear-tactics,’ or ‘red-baiting.’
d. No matter how strong the opposition argument or data, always respond with “you falsely claimed…” or “I exposed your lies…” of “I destroyed your argument…” etc.

And "That quote tells me pretty much all I need to know about you..." Is that supposed to be some sort of insult?
You must be pretty dense if you had any difficulty understanding what I am about: I never "hide my light under a bushel."


For anyone on the fence re: the deleterious effects of liberal-progressive-left-wing control of education, compare the following statement about the English of some 80 years ago, consider this:

On Wednesday, June 6, 1928 the Oxford English Dictionary was completed. In The Meaning of Everything, Simon Winchester discusses the English of the time as follows:
“The English establishment of the day might be rightly derided at this remove as having been class-ridden and imperialist, bombastic and blimpish, racist and insouciant- but it was marked undeniably also by a sweeping erudition and confidence, and it was peopled by men and women who felt they were able to know all, to understand much, and in consequence to radiate the wisdom of deep learning.”

It is my fondest wish that America could reattain that level of erudition. It won't happen with liberals in charge of education.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Alas, you cannot reliably solve problems with a calculator unless you can solve them without a calculator. The calculator has become central to teaching math, to the point that children cannot perform any math without it and have no clue when they punch the wrong keys that they have the wrong answer.
Kids learn to hate math because too many elementary education teachers spout nonsense like "Don't worry if it confuses you, math is hard." and "I was never any good at math."


Where do you get this crap? From some liberal rag disguised as news? Talk about indoctrination.

Sorry, wrong answer. How were those statistics compiled? How was the questionnaire worded? These are critical issues. Asking a scientist
Do you vote
a - Always Republican
b - Always Democrat
c - It depends on the candidate
could easily get a result of "c" from any reasonable person.
And then be used by a pollster to show only a small percent of the group polled were "Republicans"


Many liberals are the last people who should be teaching children. Because they aren't teaching. They are performing "indoctrination".

What you need are Teachers to do the teaching.

Hey, hey, hey-

Now you just leave Deanie-weenie alone!

Spanking him is my job, after all I selected him as the dumbest poster on USMB.

(And we try to encourage him, part of his therapy)

Still waiting for that first "spank". So far, you have missed every single time.

Wow!

What a zinger!
I can't wait for you to move all the way up to "I know you are but what am I?"

 

[editec]

Anybody who thinks that America hasn't dummied down its schools?

I invite you to visit Children's Books Online; the Rosetta Project to see what sorts of books kids read in our grandfather's day. When I test books for reading levels that were clearly used in elementary schools in the nation a century ago, they test out at junior and sometimes senior high school level for reading levels.

What you will find is that pedagogs didn't teach down to their kids they taught UP to the kids, thus forcing them to learn new vocabularly and how to read more difficult reading content.

Naturally, this makes it rather difficult for me to decide what reading level I should be putting these books into for today's audience

I have decided that I'll put books into the reading levels I think the old timers might have put them, and to hell with the modern dumbed down view of what kids can learn.

Basically now, I assume that the story line and subject matter are the keys to the reading levels, regardless of how they come out when I test them for reading levels using standardized testing systems

Somebody has to do it!

Our kids will become as ignorant as we allow them to become, folks.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

I haven't seen anyone do this many bends and turns since the last time I played Twister.

It seems clear that you are not educable on this topic, fine, but your ability to ignore the 800-pound gorilla is astounding:
Since the 'progressives' took over education, , the scores of American students have plummeted.

You get full credit for effectuating 'Liberal Libretto' rule #6 b:

6. Claim to misunderstand, obfuscate, deflect and change the subject, and, if all else fails, allege that you misspoke.
a. Remember, left-wingers may make a ‘mistake,’ for right-wingers, it is a lie!
b. When relating a series of events that lead to a conclusion, if it is a right-wing conclusion, we must never see the connection!
c. Any exposure of detrimental information must be referred to as either ‘fear-tactics,’ or ‘red-baiting.’
d. No matter how strong the opposition argument or data, always respond with “you falsely claimed…” or “I exposed your lies…” of “I destroyed your argument…” etc.

And "That quote tells me pretty much all I need to know about you..." Is that supposed to be some sort of insult?
You must be pretty dense if you had any difficulty understanding what I am about: I never "hide my light under a bushel."


For anyone on the fence re: the deleterious effects of liberal-progressive-left-wing control of education, compare the following statement about the English of some 80 years ago, consider this:

On Wednesday, June 6, 1928 the Oxford English Dictionary was completed. In The Meaning of Everything, Simon Winchester discusses the English of the time as follows:
“The English establishment of the day might be rightly derided at this remove as having been class-ridden and imperialist, bombastic and blimpish, racist and insouciant- but it was marked undeniably also by a sweeping erudition and confidence, and it was peopled by men and women who felt they were able to know all, to understand much, and in consequence to radiate the wisdom of deep learning.”

It is my fondest wish that America could reattain that level of erudition. It won't happen with liberals in charge of education.

A simple: "I don't have a way to refute the correct things you said" would have been sufficient, and measurably more honest.

Everyone knows there's a problem and I have acknowledged several issues that need resolution in this thread. Your shortcoming is that you're attempting to fit all of the issues into a Conservative vs. Liberal mindset and will only rest when you're sure that these issues are somehow someone else's fault.

And yes, at this point I know what you're about. Your quote from 1928 pretty much confirms what I thought about you.

 

[Charles Stucker]

Anybody who thinks that America hasn't dummied down its schools?

I invite you to visit Children's Books Online; the Rosetta Project to see what sorts of books kids read in our grandfather's day.

Our kids will become as ignorant as we allow them to become, folks.

I'm not experienced in teaching Reading, but your views on the topic seem plausible. They also follow the trend I have noticed in Math - new methods for teaching have resulted in poorer performance.
The same trend occurs in other fields - history for example. I recently met a kid who was attending a local junior college; he had no clue who Winston Churchill was, same for Erwin Rommel. Despite him claiming to be a military history buff.

Teaching requires more than just money; teachers in Texas make far better wages relative to other careers than they did fifty years ago, yet the quality of instructors has slipped markedly. Teaching requires local authority and parents who support the schools.

With local authority, school districts could demand better teachers; with current wages the only stumbling blocks are the NEA with its extreme form of "union protectionism" and the massive paperwork required by federal/state "mandates"
The Red Cross can teach a competent swimmer to teach swimming in a few weeks. The same principles used in teaching swimming can be used for teaching Mathematics. Thus it follows that you could teach anyone competent in a given field to teach in a few weeks. Instead a "teaching certificate" requiring 20+ hours of college credits in education and a semester of "student teaching" (which resembles teaching about like riding a bicycle resembles driving a car) and then "refresher" courses every summer or two. Those courses focus on jargon and slogans, not teaching.
Multiculturalism is a primary offender. I had a multicultural expert once ask me my favorite black author. "Steve Barnes" - she had never heard of Barnes. He's a black science fiction writer, so the MC expert told me I had the wrong idea. A black author is one who writes about the black experience. "Mark Twain" also failed her criteria for the obvious reason (I was being stubborn at that point). Then I asked her favorite Japanese author. She had none. Ditto for Chinese, Korean, Hindu, Persian, and Native American. She never understood the idiocy of calling it "multiculturalism" when it was about a single culture.
Yes, this is a pet peeve of mine.
Math is multicultural without having to add any extra PC lesson nonsense. Greece, Egypt, India, and China all added elements to modern Mathematics at a fundamental level. Modern Math is developed around the globe. Black, White, Brown, Yellow, none of that matter to math. But the PC police insist that you teach about particular mathematicians.

Modern liberal though in the classroom has, in my experience, stressed a lot of different things, but never the need to push the students. That is the fundamental problem with the "liberal" approach - the lack of concern with success. that lack is apparent in their refusal to address the failure of their tenets as seen in the systemic decline in results following the adoption of their ideals.

I use liberal here as it applies to education, not politics. Politically I oppose a lot of liberal ideals, but support some. In education I have yet to find a liberal ideal which worked as claimed.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

With local authority, school districts could demand better teachers; with current wages the only stumbling blocks are the NEA with its extreme form of "union protectionism" and the massive paperwork required by federal/state "mandates"

We could debate a lot other points in your post (in particular, I'm have issues with some of the "alternative" certification methods employed by certain states...), but one thing I think we can agree on is the need for greater local authority. I think the NEA in particular has been too gung-ho at protecting bad teachers.

I don't think increased local authority alone will resolve all the problems todays schools face. I know high school teachers (good ones mind you) that have to carry malpractice insurance because giving little Johnny a failing grade might result in a lawsuit. How does that make sense? There's also the issue that seniority is king in public schools and with that mentality comes several detrimental effects.

 

[Charles Stucker]

We could debate a lot other points in your post (in particular, I'm have issues with some of the "alternative" certification methods employed by certain states...), but one thing I think we can agree on is the need for greater local authority. I think the NEA in particular has been too gung-ho at protecting bad teachers.

I'm only familiar with Texas' alternative certification - there you start teaching and within two years are expected to complete the classroom curricula for certification. It's not really that different from regular certification since the courses required don't actually teach anything useful for teaching. The problem is people hate all the nonsensical paperwork foisted on them from above. One teacher I know who retired in the 90's observed she had more free time in the 60's while raising three kids and teaching than in the 90's because of the enormous increase in paperwork.
Competence in the subject matter plus basic teaching techniques and some classroom management (like keep on your feet and move around the room to better observe the students) are the requirements for a good teacher. What the NEA and current certification push is a rigid adherence to their doctrine. A flawed doctrine.

I know high school teachers (good ones mind you) that have to carry malpractice insurance because giving little Johnny a failing grade might result in a lawsuit. How does that make sense? There's also the issue that seniority is king in public schools and with that mentality comes several detrimental effects.

Yes, I agree we have to get rid of lawyers who will do anything for a buck. They are the cause of the "Teacher malpractice" issue.
The same teacher I mentioned above had experience as an engineer, programming early computers to solve problems, and after several years teaching Math and Computer classes in one district had moved to another. That district was just then starting their computer course, and she went when offered a chance to set their curriculum. A Coach decided he wanted such a fun class and she was forced to take extra shifts of pre-algebra while the coach played on the computers. All because the coach has seniority (actually in Texas football is like a religion, so being a coach probably helped too)

A telling point in mathematics is that the failure of elementary teachers to instill any arithmetic skill in students makes the job of high school teachers nigh impossible. If it is a case of elementary education majors knowing too little math then perhaps the certification process should teach more math with rigorous standards (none of the calculator bull for example, unless someone insists a calculator class is needed, and then only in that class)

 

[Dr.Traveler]

A telling point in mathematics is that the failure of elementary teachers to instill any arithmetic skill in students makes the job of high school teachers nigh impossible.

I think we're closer in agreement than it might appear. I want to be clear: I am not against drilling in arithmetic. I do think its important. I would also like to see some sort of "intuition" instilled into the computation so that later on we can increase success in courses that resist a simpler "drill and kill" approach.

For example: I have students that sit down to work a compound interest problem. If asked to invest $1000 at 1.2% for 5 years, they give back answers like $1,000,0000 or sometimes answers like $500.

Even the best students will make a numerical mistake, so the above answer can't be simply written off as a lack of arithmetic skill (though that may be an issue). What is disturbing to me is that the student lacks any kind of intuition that the above answers could be wrong. I routinely tell my college students that there is room for common sense in mathematics, but by this point they are so hardwired to stop thinking and work that they simply don't believe me. That's an issue and that needs to be addressed at some point.

I also agree there are a great deal of non-mathematical issues in public education too. Resolving those is a whole other issue.

 

[Charles Stucker]

For example: I have students that sit down to work a compound interest problem. If asked to invest $1000 at 1.2% for 5 years, they give back answers like $1,000,0000 or sometimes answers like $500.

Because they don't realize the answer (in this case) is very close to the simple interest answer of $1060. As you say, they have not spent enough time developing their mathematical skills. Another part of the problem you see is an indifference to correct answers.

I also agree there are a great deal of non-mathematical issues in public education too. Resolving those is a whole other issue.

I would argue that the base issues for all subjectss are
1 Teachers need to know the subjects they teach
2 Teachers must know how to present material in a comprehensive understandable way
3 Classroom discipline must be maintained
4 Standards must be enforced

Just those four things, but they require getting the NEA and federal government out of the game and forcing parents to take control of their own children. Three tasks which are each Sisyphean in scope.

 

[midcan5]

We use a curriculum pretty much as you outline it, and, of course, don't allow calculators.

Slide rule, abacus, or fingers?

PC, any comments here: http://www.usmessageboard.com/conspiracy-theories/95300-serious-conspiracy-theorist-question.html


Charles Stucker, Dr.Traveler, interesting discussion. My wife maintains strict order and is eventually liked ,even loved, by her students. Math scores are excellent, calculator is OK, and she has a no excuse policy. And Several best teacher awards. But order is key and work on time essential. Too much extracurricular activity is an issue too, esp sports.

 

[PoliticalChic]

We use a curriculum pretty much as you outline it, and, of course, don't allow calculators.

Slide rule, abacus, or fingers?

PC, any comments here: http://www.usmessageboard.com/conspiracy-theories/95300-serious-conspiracy-theorist-question.html


Charles Stucker, Dr.Traveler, interesting discussion. My wife maintains strict order and is eventually liked ,even loved, by her students. Math scores are excellent, calculator is OK, and she has a no excuse policy. And Several best teacher awards. But order is key and work on time essential. Too much extracurricular activity is an issue too, esp sports.

1. None of the above. My 5th grader learned her multiplication tables, I believe it was last year.

2. I don't understand what you are asking me to comment on (sorry to end the sentence with a preposition). If it is to ascertain my political perspectives, certainly I have never hidden where I stand. You know full well.

3. I, too, would be proud of your wife, and her accomplishments. But her excellent performance is outside the scope of this discussion as a dispositive response.

It is the overall performance of American children vis-s-vis the performance of children of other nations, specifically those who don't subscribe to 'progressive' education.

I have often noted that I believe that data should inform policy, and I suspect that the excellent math teacher in your family would agree with that formulation.

From the OP article: progressive institutes "the employment of trendy, though empirically unsupported, pedagogical and organizational methods that essentially dumb down math content. Math educators proclaimed a brand-new objective—conveniently indefinable and immeasurable—called “deep conceptual understanding.”

And 'progressives"insisting instead on the value of student-developed algorithms—this despite research by cognitive psychologists strongly supporting a curriculum that simultaneously develops conceptual understanding, computational fluency with standard algorithms, and problem-solving skills as the best way to prepare students for algebra

And "Teacher-directed learning goes out the window, despite its demonstrated benefits for students with learning problems..."


"The panel found little if any credible evidence supporting the teaching philosophy and practices that math educators have promoted in their ed-school courses and embedded in textbooks for almost two decades. Despite the proven effectiveness of these strategies [recommended by the Paned], many math educators view most of them with disdain—most likely because they entail more traditional, structured teaching."

Did your wife have an opinion on the OP?

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Too much extracurricular activity is an issue too, esp sports.

Don't get me started on the disproportionate amount of time/money wasted on sports at all levels of education. I'm of the opinion that if a sports program can not pay for itself out of ticket revenue or alumni donation, that program should be abolished. Not one cent of tax payer or tuition dollars should go to fund extra-curriculars that distract and detract from the classroom.

 

[xotoxi]

Since this thread has clearly been derailed several times, by both the OP and others, I'd like to take a closer look at this...

Let's say that your mother has Alzheimer's and breaks her hip. Let's say that all the bioethicists on the hospital ethics committee have degrees in behavioral economics, psychology, decision theory or sociology. Would you find that reassuring? When tough decisions have to be made about her future, would you expect them to treat your mother as a unique human being with inalienable dignity? Probably not. Probably the thought would cross your mind that these guys may know a lot about quality-adjusted life years, but not a lot about how precious a human life is. In fact, the thought might cross your mind that this looks more like a death panel than an ethics committee.

As a physician, the above scenario is not a rare reality. So I ask you, what should be done if the above lady (say she is 90s) with Alzheimers (say it is severe enough that she is in bed or a wheelchair most of the time) was to fracture her hip.

What do YOU think should be done? Based on your answers, we will continue the discussion.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

...Math educators proclaimed a brand-new objective—conveniently indefinable and immeasurable—called “deep conceptual understanding.”
...—this despite research by cognitive psychologists strongly supporting a curriculum that simultaneously develops conceptual understanding, computational fluency with standard algorithms, and problem-solving skills as the best way to prepare students for algebra

Ummm...don't look now but your article contradticts itself. How is deep conceptual understanding "indefinable and immesaurable" when its put foward as an objective when researchers arguing in support of an algorithmic approach can provide research saying their way "develops conceptual understanding".

Fostering conceptual understanding of the material absolutely should be a goal. Arithmetic mistakes will happen no matter how much drilling you do. Conceptual understanding increases the chance that a ridiculous answer can be recognized and discarded, while at the same time fostering reasoning skills sorely missing when a student moves on to advanced mathematics.

 

[PoliticalChic]

...Math educators proclaimed a brand-new objective—conveniently indefinable and immeasurable—called “deep conceptual understanding.”
...—this despite research by cognitive psychologists strongly supporting a curriculum that simultaneously develops conceptual understanding, computational fluency with standard algorithms, and problem-solving skills as the best way to prepare students for algebra

Ummm...don't look now but your article contradticts itself. How is deep conceptual understanding "indefinable and immesaurable" when its put foward as an objective when researchers arguing in support of an algorithmic approach can provide research saying their way "develops conceptual understanding".

Fostering conceptual understanding of the material absolutely should be a goal. Arithmetic mistakes will happen no matter how much drilling you do. Conceptual understanding increases the chance that a ridiculous answer can be recognized and discarded, while at the same time fostering reasoning skills sorely missing when a student moves on to advanced mathematics.

I've noticed that a dead give-away to a smug, sneering, pedantic post is when one begins with "Ummm..."

And, another perception that I have had, all of those who use "dr." in their avatar are sorely in need of one.

But enough chit-chat.

This has been quite a long thread, and everyone has expressed his/her viewpoint.


But- (not 'ummm') the 800 lb. gorilla in the room, or in this case, in the argument, is the fact that scores have fallen precipitously since liberals, 'progressives,' have taken over the school system.

"Americans have been dissatisfied with their public schools for several decades. There are
many reasons for this. It is well known, for instance, that the achievement of American students,
when compared with that of students from other industrialized nations, is consistently near the
bottom (166-167).1 Employers complain that many high school graduates lack even the most
basic skills in reading, writing and mathematics. Colleges and universities must offer remedial
work for large numbers of incoming students before they are prepared to do college level work."
http://www.macalester.edu/~reedy/h2.pdf


So, (not 'ummm") aside from the minutiae, how do we account for the seemingly related factors of the installation of progressive theory, and falling grades?

Coincidence? Artifact of statistics?

How many decades are necessary before we scrap these new and trendy theories, and return to those that have actually shown results?

I'd agree to mitigate some of the criticism of progressive education, by stipulating that the progressive direction in society is even more to blame.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

...Math educators proclaimed a brand-new objective—conveniently indefinable and immeasurable—called “deep conceptual understanding.”
...—this despite research by cognitive psychologists strongly supporting a curriculum that simultaneously develops conceptual understanding, computational fluency with standard algorithms, and problem-solving skills as the best way to prepare students for algebra

Ummm...don't look now but your article contradticts itself. How is deep conceptual understanding "indefinable and immesaurable" when its put foward as an objective when researchers arguing in support of an algorithmic approach can provide research saying their way "develops conceptual understanding".

Fostering conceptual understanding of the material absolutely should be a goal. Arithmetic mistakes will happen no matter how much drilling you do. Conceptual understanding increases the chance that a ridiculous answer can be recognized and discarded, while at the same time fostering reasoning skills sorely missing when a student moves on to advanced mathematics.

I've noticed that a dead give-away to a smug, sneering, pedantic post is when one begins with "Ummm..."

And, another perception that I have had, all of those who use "dr." in their avatar are sorely in need of one.

But enough chit-chat.

This has been quite a long thread, and everyone has expressed his/her viewpoint.


But- (not 'ummm') the 800 lb. gorilla in the room, or in this case, in the argument, is the fact that scores have fallen precipitously since liberals, 'progressives,' have taken over the school system.

"Americans have been dissatisfied with their public schools for several decades. There are
many reasons for this. It is well known, for instance, that the achievement of American students,
when compared with that of students from other industrialized nations, is consistently near the
bottom (166-167).1 Employers complain that many high school graduates lack even the most
basic skills in reading, writing and mathematics. Colleges and universities must offer remedial
work for large numbers of incoming students before they are prepared to do college level work."
http://www.macalester.edu/~reedy/h2.pdf


So, (not 'ummm") aside from the minutiae, how do we account for the seemingly related factors of the installation of progressive theory, and falling grades?

Coincidence? Artifact of statistics?

How many decades are necessary before we scrap these new and trendy theories, and return to those that have actually shown results?

I'd agree to mitigate some of the criticism of progressive education, by stipulating that the progressive direction in society is even more to blame.

So yet again, you have no actual response to the point I brought up?

 

[PoliticalChic]

Ummm...don't look now but your article contradticts itself. How is deep conceptual understanding "indefinable and immesaurable" when its put foward as an objective when researchers arguing in support of an algorithmic approach can provide research saying their way "develops conceptual understanding".

Fostering conceptual understanding of the material absolutely should be a goal. Arithmetic mistakes will happen no matter how much drilling you do. Conceptual understanding increases the chance that a ridiculous answer can be recognized and discarded, while at the same time fostering reasoning skills sorely missing when a student moves on to advanced mathematics.

I've noticed that a dead give-away to a smug, sneering, pedantic post is when one begins with "Ummm..."

And, another perception that I have had, all of those who use "dr." in their avatar are sorely in need of one.

But enough chit-chat.

This has been quite a long thread, and everyone has expressed his/her viewpoint.


But- (not 'ummm') the 800 lb. gorilla in the room, or in this case, in the argument, is the fact that scores have fallen precipitously since liberals, 'progressives,' have taken over the school system.

"Americans have been dissatisfied with their public schools for several decades. There are
many reasons for this. It is well known, for instance, that the achievement of American students,
when compared with that of students from other industrialized nations, is consistently near the
bottom (166-167).1 Employers complain that many high school graduates lack even the most
basic skills in reading, writing and mathematics. Colleges and universities must offer remedial
work for large numbers of incoming students before they are prepared to do college level work."
http://www.macalester.edu/~reedy/h2.pdf


So, (not 'ummm") aside from the minutiae, how do we account for the seemingly related factors of the installation of progressive theory, and falling grades?

Coincidence? Artifact of statistics?

How many decades are necessary before we scrap these new and trendy theories, and return to those that have actually shown results?

I'd agree to mitigate some of the criticism of progressive education, by stipulating that the progressive direction in society is even more to blame.

So yet again, you have no actual response to the point I brought up?

So yet again, you have no actual response to the larger point I brought up!

 

[Dr.Traveler]

So yet again, you have no actual response to the larger point I brought up!

I've addressed it here, here, and here, as well as addressing other posters in this thread about some of the issues that have come up. In case you missed it, a few of us have had a constructive dialogue on the issues in school.

So far, all you've added is reposting your op in various forms as well as tired Liberal vs. Conservative talking points. At this point it is very clear you are not actually interested in the problem or a solution, but in assigning blame to "progressives."

When you are interested in actually debating the issues and attempting to address them, come on back. I gather from your posts so far that you're either a teacher, or are posing as one. Maybe you have something constructive to add.