Comparing the Best of the Allied Fighters with the Best of the Luftwaffe

Vrenn

Vrenn

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Let's have a little fun. Let's compare the best of Luftwaffe with the long ranged fighters of the Allies. They have to have been introduced in enough numbers to have an impact so no P-51H types.

Allied

Republic-P-47N-Thunderbolt.jpg

P-47N
  • A special model which went into service in Europe early in 1945 as the M for the ETO while the N had 18inchs longer wing span and was used in the Pacific.
  • Fitted with a P-47D wing.
  • P-47N fuselage and a 2,100 hp Pratt & Whitney R-2800-57 engine with larger supercharger and improved water-injection system.
  • Was claimed to be the fastest airscrew-driven airplane in service at that time and to be successful in combating German jet propelled fighters.
  • Maximum speed (P-47N): 467 mph at 32,500 ft with the M being able to fly at over 473mph.
  • The M had a combat radius of 530 miles while the N had a range of over 800 miles.
  • For the P-47M and N, think of a TA-152 on steroids. At a high altitude, nothing could out turn either of these including the other Allied and Axis Fighters.
250px-XP-51F.jpg

P-51D/K
General characteristics

Performance

  • Maximum speed: 440 mph (710 km/h, 383 kn)
  • Cruise speed: 362 mph (583 km/h, 315 kn)
  • Stall speed: 100 mph (160 km/h, 87 kn)
  • Range: 1,650 mi (2,660 km, 1,434 nmi) with external tanks
  • Service ceiling: 41,900 ft (12,800 m)
  • Rate of climb: 3,200 ft/min (16 m/s)
  • Lift-to-drag: 14.6
  • Wing loading: 39 lb/sq ft (190 kg/m2)
  • Power/mass: 0.162 / 0.187 hp/lb (0.266 / 0.307 kW/kg) (without / with WEP)
  • Recommended Mach limit 0.8
Armament

Notable appearances in media​

Main article: Aircraft in fiction § P-51 Mustang


General characteristics
Performance
  • Maximum speed: 440 mph (710 km/h, 383 kn)
  • Cruise speed: 362 mph (583 km/h, 315 kn)
  • Stall speed: 100 mph (160 km/h, 87 kn)
  • Range: 1,650 mi (2,660 km, 1,434 nmi) with external tanks
  • Service ceiling: 41,900 ft (12,800 m)
  • Rate of climb: 3,200 ft/min (16 m/s)
  • Lift-to-drag: 14.6
  • Wing loading: 39 lb/sq ft (190 kg/m2)
  • Power/mass: 0.162 / 0.187 hp/lb (0.266 / 0.307 kW/kg) (without / with WEP)
  • Recommended Mach limit 0.8
Armament
The p-51D had an advantage over all other prop fighters from 18,000 to about 21,000 feet. Right where the bombers were flying. Higher than that and others performed better. Below that and others performed better. Funny how the P-38J/L owned the skies below 18,000 feet over all single engine fighters.

250px-Lockheed_F-5_Lightning.jpg

P-38J/L

General characteristics
Performance
Armament
  • Guns:
  • Rockets: 4× M10 three-tube 4.5 in (112 mm) M8 rocket launchers; or:
    • Inner hardpoints:
      • 2× 2,000 lb (907 kg) bombs or drop tanks; or
        • 4× 500 lb (227 kg) bombs or
        • 4× 250 lb (113 kg) bombs; or
      • 6× 500 lb (227 kg) bombs; or
      • 6× 250 lb (113 kg) bombs
      • 10× 5 in (127 mm) HVARs (High Velocity Aircraft Rockets); or
      • 2× 500 lb (227 kg) bombs; or
      • 2× 250 lb (113 kg) bombs
Out of the top 3 long ranged Allied Fighters, this one had the longest legs and was used as both a bomber escort and a bomber. The Bomber Mafia hated this strange bird since it carried as heavy a payload as a B-17 set up for a long ranged bomb run. When the US flew the F and G models, the Luftwaffe could dive to disengage and the P-38 would not follow. But with the introduction of the Dive Flaps, that trick didn't work anymore and after diving thousands of feet down, they would see the P-38L had only lost a bit of distance and would make up for it fast. Plus, since they would be below 18,000 feet, the P-38L could not only out turn them but out climb them. the P-38J was the first fighter to get the Fowler Flaps which aided their turning at lower speeds.

Sorry, the British never really offered a long ranged fighter. And there were only 3 KI-100 Japanese fighters that would have been a real handful for the 3 long range Allied Fighters. While the KI-100 was introduced, it just didn't have enough numbers to make much of a difference.

Yes I know, Germany didn't have any real long ranged fighters to speak of but we will use their top 3 (excluding the Jets).

BF-109 and the ME-109K-4
Messerschmitt-Bf109-G-14-5.jpeg

BF-109G6

  • Wingspan: 9,92 m
  • Length: 8,85 m
  • Height: 3,40 m
  • Top speed: 685 km/h
  • Service ceiling: 12,500 m
  • Max. weight: 2,900 kg
  • Drive: Daimler Benz DB 605
  • Power: 1350 hp
  • Crew/passengers: 1
  • Display: Flying
This was a boom and zoom fighter that started out as being able to turn and burn with everything thrown at it. This is the most numerous Luftwaffe Fighter. The problem is, it just got too long on the tooth so a replacement had to be found.

ME-109K-4
They upped the power of the engine and added a bit more fire power but the weight went up. At high altitude, (above 20,000 feet) this was more than a formidable fighter. Below that and the P-38L and the P-51D would be able to more than handle it. But at over 20,000 feet, it would take a P-47M to compete with it which at that point would depend on the pilot more than the Aircraft. It often flew high escorting the FW-190s who would strafe the bombers while the 109K-4 would dive down on the accompanying fighters in a Boom and Zoom attack.

FW-190A, FW-190D Dora.
When the 190A was first introduced in 1941, There was nothing in the skies that could handle it until late 1943 when the P-38J/L and the P-51B/C first hit the skies. The early models would eat a Spitfire alive. But due to a bit of luck, the Brits ended up with a fully functional FW-190A so they could figure out why and come up with tactics to combat it. The Spitfire design was updated to meet it's performance but never to exceed it. This was the most produced of all the 190s and it wasn't until the later 1943 that the P-51B/C and the P-38J/L was introduced to exceed it's performance. The 190 did most of the shooting down of the allied Bombers since it had the guns, speed and could take a lot of punishment.

The Dora was introduce a little late in the war and was used as the platform to make the TA-152. This thing was a beast at medium altitude where the bombers operated at. And could sustain a whole bunch of damage and keep fighting. I think a close comparison would be that of the P-47D.


Which one was better? It all depended on the year, model and altitude. No single one is the winner in this one.
 
Also are we not including the Beast that was the Tempest? 4 20MM cannon plus rockets and bombs will ruin your day.
1755027795794.webp
 
The ME-262 if mass produced and used properly may have delayed the war's end by two years.
 
Zincwarrior said:
Where my Corsair at! And it could land on a carrier.
View attachment 1148409
Click to expand...

With a combat range that can only be measured with a yardstick, it didn't make the cut. To the best of my knowledge only two carrier birds (both jets) would have made a long distance and that would be the F-14 and A-5C. Maybe, if we stretch it a bit, maybe the A-7E or the A-1
 
Zincwarrior said:
Where my Corsair at! And it could land on a carrier.
View attachment 1148409
Click to expand...

With a combat range of 328 miles, it could barely get halfway across France and have to return. At least the P-47N could get inside Germany before having to return. The Hurricane had more than 200 miles more of range and it was not on this list. You had better bring a combat range of at least 800 miles to compete on this list and nothing during WWII out of Britain made that grade. Well, except for bombers.
 
John Edgar Slow Horses said:
The ME-262 if mass produced and used properly may have delayed the war's end by two years.
Click to expand...
Nope. Unlike Meteors they could not mass produce and maintain the Jumo engines. US versions with the Brit engine design were also available in 1945. Plus Berlin is radioactive in August....
 
Vrenn said:
With a combat range of 328 miles, it could barely get halfway across France and have to return. At least the P-47N could get inside Germany before having to return. The Hurricane had more than 200 miles more of range and it was not on this list. You had better bring a combat range of at least 800 miles to compete on this list and nothing during WWII out of Britain made that grade. Well, except for bombers.
Click to expand...
These aren't the best allied fighters. They are only deep bomber escorts. What is the range of the 109 and Dora?
 
John Edgar Slow Horses said:
The ME-262 if mass produced and used properly may have delayed the war's end by two years.
Click to expand...
Not with engines that had a service life of ten to twenty five hours. The Germans lacked the metals to make the alloys for turbine blades that could survive service use. The GE J-31 that powered the P-59 weighed half as much as the Jumo 004 that powered the Me-262, the J-31 had a thrust to weight ratio of 1.94 to 1 the 004 had one of 1.25 to 1. The American turbo-jet engines had a seervice life in the high hundreds of hours. I can't find a exact figure.
 
That is an allegation without proof. Berlin had 14 months to outproduce and use the jets correctly.

The allies would still have been in France in May of 1945.

However, I don't think the Nazis would have had the bomb. Truman would have dropped it on Berlin.



Zincwarrior said:
Nope. Unlike Meteors they could not mass produce and maintain the Jumo engines. US versions with the Brit engine design were also available in 1945. Plus Berlin is radioactive in August....
Click to expand...
 
If the bombs were used in Europe, and no more would be available by Spring of 1946, would the Allies gone ahead with the invasion of Japan? I think probably so.

I also think the USSR would have been very tempted to attack western Europe.
 
Vrenn said:
With a combat range of 328 miles, it could barely get halfway across France and have to return. At least the P-47N could get inside Germany before having to return. The Hurricane had more than 200 miles more of range and it was not on this list. You had better bring a combat range of at least 800 miles to compete on this list and nothing during WWII out of Britain made that grade. Well, except for bombers.
Click to expand...
You are confusing range with combat radius. the Corsair's range on internal fuel was 1,015 miles. The one or two drop tanks it could carry extended that significantly. They contained another 154 gallons almost half the 237 gallons of internal fuel for one or 408 gallons for two. The single tank would probably double the combat radius, two tanks would easily triple or quadruple it. The P-47N had a range of 2,340 miles, that's more than the 2,000 mile range of a B-17 carrying a 6,000 pound bomb load. The P-47D had about the same range on internal fuel as the F4U (not much of a surprise as they used the same engine; the Pratt and Whitney R-2800).
 
John Edgar Slow Horses said:
If the bombs were used in Europe, and no more would be available by Spring of 1946, would the Allies gone ahead with the invasion of Japan? I think probably so.

I also think the USSR would have been very tempted to attack western Europe.
Click to expand...
The US had plans to produce more than twenty Nukes in 1945 which were cancelled due to the Japanese surrender.
 
The three nukes were expended by the first ten days of August: the test, and the two used in Japan.

There would have been a gap of at least four months (end of December to some time in January) before active nukes could be delivered to the eastern Pacific base of operations.

If the war with Germany was still continuing, that is where they would have been used. Germany was always priority over Japan.
 
Best planes? Germany was busy building advanced weapons after WW1 in violation of the surrender agreement while FDR was clueless and the U.S. military and manufacturing was in the doldrums during the Great Depression. Harry Truman had to hijack a Nazi scientist after the war to put the U.S. on the right track.
 
whitehall said:
Best planes? Germany was busy building advanced weapons after WW1 in violation of the surrender agreement while FDR was clueless and the U.S. military and manufacturing was in the doldrums during the Great Depression. Harry Truman had to hijack a Nazi scientist after the war to put the U.S. on the right track.
Click to expand...
The best quote I ever heard about the space race was that it was a competition between Russia’s German scientists and our’s.
 
15th post
One factor to remember is gasoline quality.
Allies, as in USA and UK, had use of 100 octane which helped top out the max engine performance.
Germany stayed with 87 octane because it could nearly double gasoline production with that compared to going for 100 octane.

BTW, don't recall seeing the Spitfire here yet, or any Russian fighters.
 
AZrailwhale said:
The best quote I ever heard about the space race was that it was a competition between Russia’s German scientists and our’s.
Click to expand...
One version after Sputnik beat the USA as first to orbit, was a quip;
"Guess their German rocket scientists are better than our German rocket scientists."

Actually the scientists were fairly equal in quality. It was numerous factors and chance that had the Russians beat the USA by a couple of months. Differences in quality would show over the next few years. And of course, we put people on the Moon, Russia never did.
 
Zincwarrior said:
These aren't the best allied fighters. They are only deep bomber escorts. What is the range of the 109 and Dora?
Click to expand...

After BofB, it really didn't matter the range of the 190 and 109 since they were already in the battle area just above their home fields. Without them, there would have been no war nor any reason to build the long ranged fighters by the USA. Without the BF109, Franco would have his ass handed to him in Spain.
 
AZrailwhale said:
You are confusing range with combat radius. the Corsair's range on internal fuel was 1,015 miles. The one or two drop tanks it could carry extended that significantly. They contained another 154 gallons almost half the 237 gallons of internal fuel for one or 408 gallons for two. The single tank would probably double the combat radius, two tanks would easily triple or quadruple it. The P-47N had a range of 2,340 miles, that's more than the 2,000 mile range of a B-17 carrying a 6,000 pound bomb load. The P-47D had about the same range on internal fuel as the F4U (not much of a surprise as they used the same engine; the Pratt and Whitney R-2800).
Click to expand...


The M and N of the P-47 had more internal fuel. Hence the increase in combat radius. Okay, once you drop your tanks, you are limited by your own internal fuels. If you are carrying enough fuel to go 350 miles internally, that means if you are above Germany, you won't have the gas to get back to England. This is why the P-47D had to be the second leg of a long bomber flight while the first leg was with the Spitfire. The last leg would have to be either the P-51 or the P-38 which had the combat range to get home on.
 
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