Clueless

[Semper Fi]

I don't want to come across as naive or uneducated, but I haven't really a clue of what is going on with Isreal and Palestine and whatnot. I've tried to learn (in school), but our teachers think we are the kids from The Wall and dont think we'll understand. I'm looking for facts and summaries, but anything I would appreciate. I feel like I'm missing out, and I want to expand my knowledge on current issues. Thanks.

 

[freeandfun1]

The following is a good place to start.

Teachers don't want to teach the truth about Israel for a couple of reasons. Now, I should clarify that the following two points to not apply to ALL teachers, but it does apply to the majority of today's "scholars".

1. [/list=1]
   1. To attack the actions of the Palestinians right now is not "politically correct".
   2. To teach the truth, they would have to reveal to you that the Bible foretold the events that are occurring today. The Bible clearly prophesizes that Israel will be "reborn" and I guess that just gets in their crawl. They never want to admit any validity to the Bible.
      [/list=1]Why Didn’t Muslims Create a State of Palestine?
      
      The Everlasting Hatred
      
      It has become a forgone conclusion in the Western World that there must be created a Palestinian State in the so-called “West Bank and Gaza Strip”. To this assumption, I shout a resounding, “WHY?” Now I realize even raising such a question will shock most of you who read this article. But the basis of my question is based on the policies and actions of the Muslim nations—especially those that have in the past had control of this very area.
      
      Has any Western diplomat studied the history of Muslim treatment of the people who populated this area for at least the last 200 years? I did a carefully documented study of the Palestinian territory’s history in my new book, “The Everlasting Hatred, the Roots of Jihad.” I believe that those who read my findings will be as outraged as I am at the almost criminally stupid policies that the West led by the United States is seeking to impose on the Israelis. The following is a brief summary of some of the facts I discovered. My book gives the documentation.
      
      By the beginning of the 19th Century, the Palestinian territories were a total wasteland, populated by a very few migrant sharecroppers who rented from the heartless absentee landlords of the Turkish Ottoman Empire, who were called “effendis”. The Turkish policies had so denuded the land of tress, vegetation, terraces and irrigation systems that the topsoil was eroded away, leaving only lifeless rocks. What little water was left formed malaria-ridden swamps.
      
      The only settled people in the whole territory lived in a few cities and towns, such as Jerusalem, Joppa, Safed, Tiberias, Akko, etc. A majority of these settled people were either Christian or Jewish, who endured enormous hardships to live there for religious reasons. But in between these towns, you could go for a hundred miles and not see a living soul. And when you did see someone, it was usually a band of migrant Bedouin shepherds who were constantly moving with the seasons from one region to another.
      
      It was into this devastated, unpopulated wasteland that Jews fleeing persecution in Europe began to come around the middle of the 19th Century. They bought land at greatly inflated prices from the Turkish Effendis. With Herculean effort, at the price of many deaths and much suffering, the Jews began to make the land fertile again. It was miraculous the way the land responded to their efforts. All previous Arab efforts had failed. I believe this was a literal, miraculous fulfillment of Ezekiel chapter 36.
      
      This is when a phenomenon took place that laid the foundations for our present disaster. Migrant Muslim workers began to flood into the Jewish settled areas to get jobs. Jews literally became victims of their own success. The more successful they were, the more workers from the surrounding Muslim would flock to them for jobs.
      
      By the beginning of the 20th Century, the Jewish reclaimed areas had significantly increased. This of course troubled the Muslims, especially the clerics in Jerusalem. They began to sound the alarm throughout the Muslim world that the Jews might one day take over the Holy City of Jerusalem. As a result, the Muslims stirred the migrant workers—who had greatly benefited from the jobs provided by the Jews—to claim, “The Jews stole our family lands.” Myths were created about how their families had lived in these Jewish settled areas “from time immemorial”.
      
      When the British defeated the Turkish Ottoman Empire and retook all the Arab territories including Palestine, British Christian Members of Parliament spearheaded a movement to carve out a Jewish Homeland in the Palestinian territories. At the Conference of San Remo in 1922, the League of Nations created a specific territory for this purpose and Mandated Great Britain to implement its fulfillment. The borders given included not only all of Israel, including the so-called West Bank and Gaza, but also all of what is today called the Kingdom of Jordan. The motto given for this noble policy was, “A people without a land, for a land without a people.” This reflected the known realities of that time.
      
      Of course the Arabs began to howl like wounded jackals over this. Never mind that the same League of Nations had begun to return to them the whole Middle East that had been occupied by the Ottomans for over four centuries. That wasn’t enough. They especially did not want Jews to have the dignity of their own state. And they considered it the ultimate insult to their Muslim pride that it would be established in what they considered part of the Muslim world.
      
      So enormous pressure was brought to bear upon Great Britain and the West to eliminate the possibility of a Jewish State in the region. Their first victory in this campaign was to get regional British Foreign Ministers, who were virulently anti-Jewish, to reverse the policy of their own nation and violate article five of the League of Nations Mandate. They did this by giving away without authorization the entire Trans-Jordan territory to the Arab Hashemite Tribe that had just been driven out of Arabia by the fanatical House of Saud. The Hashemites had been long-time custodians of the holy places of Mecca and Medina.
      
      Trans-Jordan represented more than 75% of the land that had been mandated by the League of Nations as a Jewish Homeland. The amazing thing is that the Jews agreed to this illegal act, providing it would be made a state where any displaced migrant workers might go and find a home.
      
      Now here is where a very important question has to be raised. Why did the British give the land to the Hashemites instead of to the migrant workers in the Palestinian territory? The most important reason is because the Hashemites were an established organized people. The migrant workers were just a disorganized band of migrant workers from many different Muslim countries. They had no idea of how to establish and run a state. They simply were not an organized, homogenous people.
      
      This is why today, The Royal Kingdom of Jordan is mostly controlled and governed by the Hashemites, who make up only about 15% of the population. The other 85% are the descendents of the migrant workers who have come to be called, Palestinians.
      
      Here is another vital question. Why did not Jordan and Egypt establish a “Palestinian State”? For nineteen years Jordan controlled the West Bank and Egypt controlled the Gaza Strip. Now these hypocritical nations demand for Israel to do what they wouldn’t have dreamed of doing—give “the disorganized migrant workers a state.”
      
      These people, who have come to be called “Palestinians”, have proven that they will never live in peace with Israel. One of the main reasons is because they have been continually cheated and brutalized by their own Muslim brothers. But there is such an endemic hatred of the Jews that dates back over 4000 years that the Muslims can easily divert the blame from themselves to the Jews. The fact that, contrary to all other historic cases of refugees, they have been kept in the squalor of refugee camps and refused repatriation into their fellow Muslim countries is blamed on the “Israeli occupation of their lands.”
      
      Let’s face facts; the ultimate goal of the Muslim Middle East is not to have two peaceful states living side by side in Palestine. Their goal is the destruction of the State of Israel and the removal of all Western influence in the Middle Eastern. True Islam sees itself at war with the culture of the Judea-Christian culture. It is incompatible with the very culturally based Islamic religion.
      
      In the light of these stark realities, it is national suicide for Israel to continue on the political path of the Oslo Agreement. It is a sure course to national and international disaster.

 

[KLSuddeth]

Thanks Free - sad to say, but I needed this too...

 

[Semper Fi]

Thank you very much. However, I am sad to say that I am still a bit confused. Your article did help me, very much so; now I have an idea of what is going on. Thanks again.

 

[Zhukov]

What, specifically, confuses you?

 

[Semper Fi]

Umm, geographically, I suppose. Like, ahhh, I dont know. Maybe what the conflict really is about, who everyone is. Im not sure of much of anything on it, I feel like Im missing out.

 

[nycflasher]

Originally posted by Semper Fi
Umm, geographically, I suppose. Like, ahhh, I dont know. Maybe what the conflict really is about, who everyone is. Im not sure of much of anything on it, I feel like Im missing out.

Um, some are Jews and some are Arabs?
Article seems pretty clear...
The whole conflict goes back so far that it is hard for outsiders to understand, I think.

Read up on the Hundred Days War.

 

[Zhukov]

Originally posted by Semper Fi
Umm, geographically, I suppose. Like, ahhh, I dont know. Maybe what the conflict really is about, who everyone is. Im not sure of much of anything on it, I feel like Im missing out.

Nutshell (all dates approximate):

The Hebrews (jews) first built a state in present-day Israel about a thousand years before Jesus.

For whatever reason, in about 200 A.D., the Roman Empire, which until then had tolerated the jewish state, up and destroyed it, and renamed it Palestine (referencing the Philistines, the jews enemies; the romans were jerks), as a province of their empire.

About 600 A.D. Islam originates, later conquers the area.

Brief period where crusaders re-take holy land. Lose it again.

After WW1, the area of Palestine is taken from the losers, the Ottoman Turks (Moslems), and given to the British

After WW2 and the holocaust, it is decided to re-create the Jewish homeland so all the jews have some place to go, since no one else wanted them. The British also gave up other land, all of which was used to create other Arab states, like Jordan.

The Arabs wanted all the land, so they attacked Israel.

Israel whooped them, and occupied land it considered strategic to it's defense.

And there we have it today.

Occupied lands:

Gaza Strip, southwest corner of Israel
West Bank (of the Jordan River), Jerusalem and eastern side of Israel
Golan Heights, northeast corner of Israel


Most moslems consider all of Israel occupied land and want to kill the inhabitants and take it all back.

 

[Zhukov]

I realize I perhaps left out an important part. But maybe it was intentional.


The Palestinians.

There is no such thing, because, as I stated earlier the Romans just made up the name Palestine to annoy the jews, that being 400 years before Islam even existed.

When the Jews occupied the land listed above, there were quite naturally moslems living there. Some were syrians, some were jordanians, whatever.

Instead of allowing these refugees to come back into Syria of Jordan, those moslem states left the refugees there, called them palestinians, and are now using them as an excuse (as if they needed one) to hate the jews more.

 

[HGROKIT]

Both explanations are very cool. I admit, I had a rough idea, but not as far back as these histories went. I think my one remaining brain cell from the '70's only let me remember from the war in '67 (?).

 

[JIHADTHIS]

This is has a very pro Israel slant, but it gives a good graphic representation including maps:

http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html

 

[HGROKIT]

So, it was originall a British problem? Intersting; even more so that they gave it to the U.N. (or League of Nations at that time?) to deal with. That pretty much explains it then

After reading through the history on the site provided, why or how exactly did we get so heavily involved? I am going to go and do some research on my own, but just curious what the thought was with you all.

 

[dilloduck]

Chritians see Israel as a homeland too and it is strategically important to the US.

 

[freeandfun1]

Originally posted by HGROKIT
So, it was originall a British problem? Intersting; even more so that they gave it to the U.N. (or League of Nations at that time?) to deal with. That pretty much explains it then

After reading through the history on the site provided, why or how exactly did we get so heavily involved? I am going to go and do some research on my own, but just curious what the thought was with you all.

We got involved at the time because, as in most instances, we were the ones that had to enforce UN mandates. If, at the time, in 1948, the US/UN had not come to Israels defence, the UN would have been rendered useless (which it has proven itself to be over and over again since).

In hindsight, we should have let the UN go the way of the League of Nations and let the Arabs defeat Israel. However, as a person that believes the scriptures, I don't believe we had that choice. God had already decided what would happen (Israel would survive) and I believe the US was just a tool used to make sure that happened.

 

[Zhukov]

Originally posted by HGROKIT
After reading through the history on the site provided, why or how exactly did we get so heavily involved? I am going to go and do some research on my own, but just curious what the thought was with you all.

To that you will get a lot of different answers from different people dependent on their worldview.

The christians will give you the biblical prophecy.

The nazis will say the jews run the world.

I myself am more of a humanist, so I will give you my historical explanation.

The state of Israel, as a democratic state, provided a good bulwark to the Soviet-supported arab states in the region at a time when the Cold War was just getting exciting. Evidence of this is given by the fact the Soviets repeatedly goaded the Arab states to attack Israel with Soviet made weapons. Though we would not intervene militarily on the side of the jews, we were more than happy to sell them weapons and give them financial aid.

Also, in line with the christian explanation, America is a christian nation and therefore, in addition to always trying to do 'the christian (read: right) thing', does possess a degree of sympathy for the jewish state. Jesus was a jew, biblical prophecy, and so forth.

Seeing a friend in the United States, in that American christians have treated jews significantly better historically then European christians, the population and therefore the political sway of jews in this country has grown over the decades.

Consequently we find ourselves in the position we are today, loved by the jews, and hated by those who hate the jews.

 

[freeandfun1]

Zhukov.....

While I totally agree with your assessment, wouldn't you agree that we had no choice (at the time) as we were trying to ensure the UN did not go the way of the League of Nations?

 

[HGROKIT]

Consequently we find ourselves in the position we are today, loved by the jews, and hated by those who hate the jews.

Hmmm - great explanation. Thanks. Until I get smarter on the subject I will offer this - seems a big price to pay for an old cold war issue. Seems to me thta from the get go, this was a regional and religious issue wherein we had no real involvement or motive to be do; Christianity motives aside.

Until the terrorism issue, it seems to me our middle east policy should have been to let them kill themselves off if that is what they wanted to do. I am not buying the oil argument. We could have and with little opposition I think, years ago made a stand on that had it not been for our involement with the Israeli's.

Just seems counterproductive to our national interests to have involved ourselves in an issue that goes back many centuries for which we had no involvement or responsibility. Seems sometimes we do that in allot of other places where in my opinion there are no clear cut implications to our interests or objectives.

Before we become the defenders of Israel or any other nation, we need to make sure our asses are covered and interests secured.

more to come after I do some more reading.

 

[Zhukov]

Originally posted by freeandfun1
Zhukov.....

While I totally agree with your assessment, wouldn't you agree that we had no choice (at the time) as we were trying to ensure the UN did not go the way of the League of Nations?

First of all, the bulk of my Cold War knowledge concerns itself primarily with the Soviet Union and it's Eastern European satellites.

Having stated that, I would say yes and no.

No, because just because the U.N. says that a jewish state should exist doesn't mean it has to exist for long just to validate the U.N., nor must it exist indefinately. If the U.N. creates a state and that state is utterly annihilated, so be it. It might look bad for the U.N., but I doubt it would have destroyed it.

Yes, insofar as at that time the U.N. was operating strongly in our favor, and therefore it was in our interests to defend the validity of it. Whether it was necessary or not.

Naturally we had a choice, and we made a very calculated one. Remember, it wasn't long before the U.N. started leveling condemnations against Israel.


But, if you think propping up the U.N. was large in the minds of American foreign policy makers at the time, more prominent than any other consideration, feel free to provide something I can read, because I've only a rudimentary knowledge of the entire conflict.

 

[freeandfun1]

My point mainly deals with the "Palestinians". If the Palestinians had, alone, attacked Israel, we most likely would have stayed out of it. However, since the Arab neighbors joined in, we had to do something. I will do a little research (I have in the past but I must find it again) and post some links on the subject.

EDIT: Here is one link on the subject

 

[Zhukov]

Originally posted by HGROKIT
Until the terrorism issue, it seems to me our middle east policy should have been to let them kill themselves off if that is what they wanted to do.

Well, considering we were selling weapons to alot of different people, one could argue that is precisely what we did do. The jews proved more resilient than anyone would have expected.

I am not buying the oil argument.

Buy it.

Don't missunderestimate the importance of oil. Everyone needs it, only a few have it, and there is only so much of it.

As crude became more important, Western powers became more involved with the going's on of the middle east. The British took control of it after WW1. The Nazi push in North Africa was a drive towards the Middle East. The Nazi push towards Stalingrad was to secure the oilfields in the south, land bordering the middle east. We didn't mind when Iran and Iraq were gassing each other, but when the Iraqis took Kuwait (and her oil fields) and threatened Saudi Arabia, indeed the whole arabian peninsula (and her oil fields), we suddenly became very interested didn't we?

Some say this latest war was all about oil. To that I would disagree. Now the problem began years before because of our interest in oil, but the last straw was a threat re-evaluation after 9/11. It was no longer a problem that could be conveniently ignored. Indeed, in retrospect, it's something that should have been taken care of in the mid 90's.

Just seems counterproductive to our national interests to have involved ourselves in an issue that goes back many centuries for which we had no involvement or responsibility. Seems sometimes we do that in allot of other places where in my opinion there are no clear cut implications to our interests or objectives.

It involves our interests because the Islamic militants want to create a theocratic Caliphate in possession of WMD to convert or destroy the world.

It is in our interests to avoid that if possible. Wouldn't you agree?