Cloture passes and I re-assess my patriotism

Little-Acorn

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Though I don't agree 100%, this fellow certainly identifies the problems clearly. He's not being hard enough on Republicans IMHO - the ones supporting the current amnesty bill are just as venal and guilty as the Democrats who support it. They're just less numerous. Maybe they are MORE guilty, since they should know better, a sentiment I cannot ascribe to many Democrats.

It is not time to give up on the Great American Experiment. Despite the exhorations of those on each side who, for very different reasons between them, seem to say it is.

---------------------------------

http://shotsacrossthebow.com/archives/002724.html

Cloture Passes and I Re-assess My Patriotism

by Rich
June 26, 2007

Remember when the Democrats told us that since 55% of the American public were against the War in Iraq that we should pull out because it was "the will of the people?"

How is it that those very same Democrats are silent while immigration policy opposed by 75+% of the American people is being shoved down our throats by a Democrat-led Senate?

I'll take hypocritical asshats for 2000, Alex.

Don't think I give the Republicans a pass, oh no. They're right in this thing because instead of voting on principle, they are playing political games with this bill, allowing President Bush just enough leeway to slide this one by. I'll give the President his due; all along, since he first started campaigning for the presidency, he's promised he would provide an immigration reform package. He hasn't flip-flopped, and as is his nature, he's pursuing the course he thinks is right with bulldog intensity, with every bit the same energy and determination he's shown with the War on Terror.

That he is as wrong as it is possible for a man to be is tragic; that he is being aided and abetted by a cynical Senator who is willing to sacrifice America's long term security for short term political gain is shameful; that our Senate as a whole is willing to disregard the loudly expressed will of the people in favor of corporate lobbyists and visions of their own electoral invincibility is a national disgrace; that our national press corps is more concerned with covering the release of an heiress convicted of a misdemeanor than covering an issue that will, regardless of the decision made, radically affect the character of our nation for generations to come is sadly typical.

What really gets me is that if you don't read the blogs, if you just listen to the news, you know almost nothing about the issue. You don't know the costs associated with this bill. You don't know about the automatic extension of benefits to those who came here illegally. You don't know that the so-called triggers are only for show, since they won't apply to the vast majority of those who are already here illegally.

You don't know, and most of you don't care.

George (Not Carlos. Gotta stop typing while listening to music) Santayana said that those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it, so let me give you a quick history lesson that applies directly to our situation today.

Roughly 500 years after the birth of Christ, the Romans were evacuating the British Isles after years of occupation. As they withdrew, the island fell into chaos, with native Celts and Woads battling with encroaching Norsemen, Angles and Saxons for control of the territories the Romans were abandoning. In this turbulent time, a king who could not control his borders soon found himself without a kingdom. One such king, by the name of Vortigern, thought he'd found a way to defend his borders against the encroaching hordes without costing him the lives of his own subjects. His insight was radical for the time; since the land was already being overrun with Anglo-Saxons, he would make a deal with them. He would trade them living space for their service as defenders of his borders.

Vortigern approached a Saxon leader by the name of Hengest to make his deal. Hengest realized that fighting to defend a land is much easier than fighting to take it, and the deal was struck. At one stroke, Vortigern had taken a liability and turned it to his advantage.

Unfortunately for Vortigern, his advantage didn't outlive him. Hengest died, and his son Horst realized that the Saxons were stronger than the Celts,and reneged on the deal his father had made. He and his men rose up and slaughtered the Celts, including their king, Vortigern, and took all the land.

Here's another example; ask a Cherokee Indian what unchecked immigration does to the native population. Or any member of a Native American tribe. Ask an aborigine in Australia.

The lesson of history is very clear; when a nation loses the ability or the will to defend its borders, it ceases to exist as a nation within a generation. Its people are replaced with a more vigorous, more robust people, a people who are willing and able to defend their territory.

Folks, this is where America is today. Just listen to the rhetoric on the pro-illegal immigration side. If you oppose this legislation, you are automatically, a bigot and a racist. You are prejudiced, and don't understand the true meaning of being an American. You are cruel and lack compassion. You are all of these things and worse, simply because you believe that we as a nation have a right to say who gets in and who doesn't.

Again, listen to what they say. We must have compassion for those who come here. After all, all they want is something better for themselves and their families. They say America should be open to all who want to come here. They say that there are too many here illegally already; there's no way we can correct the problem except by legitimizing them. They say that attempting to secure our borders is a cruel and racist act. They say that asking those who immigrate whether legally or otherwise to assimilate within our culture is wrong; that we should allow them to maintain their own national identity, even though they live and work in this nation.

Listen to what they say; they no longer believe that our borders are worth controlling.

And I have to struggle with the idea that they may be right. Is America still worth defending? Sadly, I have my doubts. I figure that there will be tremendous outrage when this bill becomes a law, but that fewer than 10% of those who vote to pass it will be defeated in their next election cycle. Remember the outrage over McCain-Feingold? How many supporters of that monstrosity were voted out? Nope, John Q is too busy surfing the internet for pictures of Britney Spears' nipple to be overly concerned about immigration legislation.

So I have to ask myself: Is this nation worth fighting for? Killing for? Dying for?

The question is very important because I have a son who is in that position right now and another who is leaning strongly that way. I served, as did my father, my uncle, and my grandfather. My ex father in law once removed (very long story, but he's good people and I'm proud to consider him part of my extended family) served, as did his son.

But would I volunteer to serve today? I really don't know. I don't know if the American people are worthy of such sacrifice, or if they would just waste it.

A few months ago, I jokingly wrote that I wasn't worried about Sharia law being implemented in America because I was pretty sure the new, fervently Catholic Hispanic majority wouldn't allow it. Whatever humor that quip once possessed has been extinguished by its increasing probability.
 

actsnoblemartin

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anyone for this bill, deserves to be voted out of office, and none of us, should give a dam, what party their from. A traitor is a traitor, whether their an ass, or an ass that eats peanuts :lol:


Though I don't agree 100%, this fellow certainly identifies the problems clearly. He's not being hard enough on Republicans IMHO - the ones supporting the current amnesty bill are just as venal and guilty as the Democrats who support it. They're just less numerous. Maybe they are MORE guilty, since they should know better, a sentiment I cannot ascribe to many Democrats.

It is not time to give up on the Great American Experiment. Despite the exhorations of those on each side who, for very different reasons between them, seem to say it is.

---------------------------------

http://shotsacrossthebow.com/archives/002724.html

Cloture Passes and I Re-assess My Patriotism

by Rich
June 26, 2007

Remember when the Democrats told us that since 55% of the American public were against the War in Iraq that we should pull out because it was "the will of the people?"

How is it that those very same Democrats are silent while immigration policy opposed by 75+% of the American people is being shoved down our throats by a Democrat-led Senate?

I'll take hypocritical asshats for 2000, Alex.

Don't think I give the Republicans a pass, oh no. They're right in this thing because instead of voting on principle, they are playing political games with this bill, allowing President Bush just enough leeway to slide this one by. I'll give the President his due; all along, since he first started campaigning for the presidency, he's promised he would provide an immigration reform package. He hasn't flip-flopped, and as is his nature, he's pursuing the course he thinks is right with bulldog intensity, with every bit the same energy and determination he's shown with the War on Terror.

That he is as wrong as it is possible for a man to be is tragic; that he is being aided and abetted by a cynical Senator who is willing to sacrifice America's long term security for short term political gain is shameful; that our Senate as a whole is willing to disregard the loudly expressed will of the people in favor of corporate lobbyists and visions of their own electoral invincibility is a national disgrace; that our national press corps is more concerned with covering the release of an heiress convicted of a misdemeanor than covering an issue that will, regardless of the decision made, radically affect the character of our nation for generations to come is sadly typical.

What really gets me is that if you don't read the blogs, if you just listen to the news, you know almost nothing about the issue. You don't know the costs associated with this bill. You don't know about the automatic extension of benefits to those who came here illegally. You don't know that the so-called triggers are only for show, since they won't apply to the vast majority of those who are already here illegally.

You don't know, and most of you don't care.

George (Not Carlos. Gotta stop typing while listening to music) Santayana said that those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it, so let me give you a quick history lesson that applies directly to our situation today.

Roughly 500 years after the birth of Christ, the Romans were evacuating the British Isles after years of occupation. As they withdrew, the island fell into chaos, with native Celts and Woads battling with encroaching Norsemen, Angles and Saxons for control of the territories the Romans were abandoning. In this turbulent time, a king who could not control his borders soon found himself without a kingdom. One such king, by the name of Vortigern, thought he'd found a way to defend his borders against the encroaching hordes without costing him the lives of his own subjects. His insight was radical for the time; since the land was already being overrun with Anglo-Saxons, he would make a deal with them. He would trade them living space for their service as defenders of his borders.

Vortigern approached a Saxon leader by the name of Hengest to make his deal. Hengest realized that fighting to defend a land is much easier than fighting to take it, and the deal was struck. At one stroke, Vortigern had taken a liability and turned it to his advantage.

Unfortunately for Vortigern, his advantage didn't outlive him. Hengest died, and his son Horst realized that the Saxons were stronger than the Celts,and reneged on the deal his father had made. He and his men rose up and slaughtered the Celts, including their king, Vortigern, and took all the land.

Here's another example; ask a Cherokee Indian what unchecked immigration does to the native population. Or any member of a Native American tribe. Ask an aborigine in Australia.

The lesson of history is very clear; when a nation loses the ability or the will to defend its borders, it ceases to exist as a nation within a generation. Its people are replaced with a more vigorous, more robust people, a people who are willing and able to defend their territory.

Folks, this is where America is today. Just listen to the rhetoric on the pro-illegal immigration side. If you oppose this legislation, you are automatically, a bigot and a racist. You are prejudiced, and don't understand the true meaning of being an American. You are cruel and lack compassion. You are all of these things and worse, simply because you believe that we as a nation have a right to say who gets in and who doesn't.

Again, listen to what they say. We must have compassion for those who come here. After all, all they want is something better for themselves and their families. They say America should be open to all who want to come here. They say that there are too many here illegally already; there's no way we can correct the problem except by legitimizing them. They say that attempting to secure our borders is a cruel and racist act. They say that asking those who immigrate whether legally or otherwise to assimilate within our culture is wrong; that we should allow them to maintain their own national identity, even though they live and work in this nation.

Listen to what they say; they no longer believe that our borders are worth controlling.

And I have to struggle with the idea that they may be right. Is America still worth defending? Sadly, I have my doubts. I figure that there will be tremendous outrage when this bill becomes a law, but that fewer than 10% of those who vote to pass it will be defeated in their next election cycle. Remember the outrage over McCain-Feingold? How many supporters of that monstrosity were voted out? Nope, John Q is too busy surfing the internet for pictures of Britney Spears' nipple to be overly concerned about immigration legislation.

So I have to ask myself: Is this nation worth fighting for? Killing for? Dying for?

The question is very important because I have a son who is in that position right now and another who is leaning strongly that way. I served, as did my father, my uncle, and my grandfather. My ex father in law once removed (very long story, but he's good people and I'm proud to consider him part of my extended family) served, as did his son.

But would I volunteer to serve today? I really don't know. I don't know if the American people are worthy of such sacrifice, or if they would just waste it.

A few months ago, I jokingly wrote that I wasn't worried about Sharia law being implemented in America because I was pretty sure the new, fervently Catholic Hispanic majority wouldn't allow it. Whatever humor that quip once possessed has been extinguished by its increasing probability.
 

lieberalism

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we need to deport every mexican back to mexico and then start with the libs. oh wait all liberals are either retards, minorities, etc. the average white male is not a liberal. that is what america is. america is not a melting pot. it is a pan of white goodness with crap on the outsides.
 

JeffWartman

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we need to deport every mexican back to mexico and then start with the libs. oh wait all liberals are either retards, minorities, etc. the average white male is not a liberal. that is what america is. america is not a melting pot. it is a pan of white goodness with crap on the outsides.
So what is your ancestry?
 

Care4all

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i heard something today that really made me think...since what is up is down and what is white is black and what is good is really bad.... that's been going on in this world of ours!

i heard someone say, that in reality, what we have without an immigration bill, is amnesty.

because in reality, this is what the illegals have now, and the employers employing them have now, without a bill....

:idea:
 

hjmick

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i heard something today that really made me think...since what is up is down and what is white is black and what is good is really bad.... that's been going on in this world of ours!

i heard someone say, that in reality, what we have without an immigration bill, is amnesty.

because in reality, this is what the illegals have now, and the employers employing them have now, without a bill....

:idea:
As long as the laws already on the books go unenforced, as long as illegal aliens, when aprehended, are not deported, this is true. However, if the government, local, state, and federal, made an effort to enforce the laws we have, there would be no need for this bill.

The people who smuggle illegal aliens into the U.S. and the people who provide illegal aliens with forged documents are already preparing for the passing of this bill. What does that tell you? It tells me that no matter how many times Congress grants amnesty to criminals, criminals will continue to break our laws. If somebody broke into your house and was aprehended, would you tell the police to let him go?

The very first act in the U.S. the people who would be most affected by this bill did is break our laws. Congress wants to reward them with citizenship? That makes no sense.

I have many friends who are immigrants, from Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, Lebanon, England, Iran, the list goes on, they all entered the U.S. legally, they all followed our laws, first acquiring a green card, the attaining legal residency, and finally citizenship, not one among them likes the idea of this bill. Many are angry, why should these people, who broke our laws, receive preferential treatment they ask. Tell me, what should I tell them? These people who worked hard and obeyed our laws, what should I tell them? For the life of me, I have no good explanation.
 

Care4all

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As long as the laws already on the books go unenforced, as long as illegal aliens, when aprehended, are not deported, this is true. However, if the government, local, state, and federal, made an effort to enforce the laws we have, there would be no need for this bill.

The people who smuggle illegal aliens into the U.S. and the people who provide illegal aliens with forged documents are already preparing for the passing of this bill. What does that tell you? It tells me that no matter how many times Congress grants amnesty to criminals, criminals will continue to break our laws. If somebody broke into your house and was aprehended, would you tell the police to let him go?

The very first act in the U.S. the people who would be most affected by this bill did is break our laws. Congress wants to reward them with citizenship? That makes no sense.

I have many friends who are immigrants, from Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, Lebanon, England, Iran, the list goes on, they all entered the U.S. legally, they all followed our laws, first acquiring a green card, the attaining legal residency, and finally citizenship, not one among them likes the idea of this bill. Many are angry, why should these people, who broke our laws, receive preferential treatment they ask. Tell me, what should I tell them? These people who worked hard and obeyed our laws, what should I tell them? For the life of me, I have no good explanation.
Once the locals capture them, the USA gvt does not come in and deport them back to Mexico or where ever they are from. There are no funds and there is no jurisdiction I believe, for the states to deport. It is a federal function. So, perhaps one of the first things we can do is MAKE CERTAIN, Congress funds the border and funds the department that is responsible for deportation. I DON'T BELIEVE Congress will EVER do this....fund a massive 12-20 million deportation....NOT that they shouldn't, but that they WILL NOT.

The other department that Congress should fund is the department responsible for charging Employers that break our immigration laws and hire illegals....perhaps some strengthening of these laws are in order?

I think we can stop it from continuing, but I do not think the fortitude is there, to do the right thing, in either political realm, or to do a single thing about those illegals here now other than just let them stay here, Amnesty.
 

Annie

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Once the locals capture them, the USA gvt does not come in and deport them back to Mexico or where ever they are from. There are no funds and there is no jurisdiction I believe, for the states to deport. It is a federal function. So, perhaps one of the first things we can do is MAKE CERTAIN, Congress funds the border and funds the department that is responsible for deportation. I DON'T BELIEVE Congress will EVER do this....fund a massive 12-20 million deportation....NOT that they shouldn't, but that they WILL NOT.

The other department that Congress should fund is the department responsible for charging Employers that break our immigration laws and hire illegals....perhaps some strengthening of these laws are in order?

I think we can stop it from continuing, but I do not think the fortitude is there, to do the right thing, in either political realm, or to do a single thing about those illegals here now other than just let them stay here, Amnesty.
Care, we are not going to deport that many people, I agree. However if the laws were enforced regarding employment and punishing the employers severely, the 'hard working' illegals would leave and try to come back legally or work on a revolt against the corrupt governments in Mexico.

We should be deporting those that come into contact with the criminal justice issues.
 

hjmick

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Care, we are not going to deport that many people, I agree. However if the laws were enforced regarding employment and punishing the employers severely, the 'hard working' illegals would leave and try to come back legally or work on a revolt against the corrupt governments in Mexico.

We should be deporting those that come into contact with the criminal justice issues.
And continue the ICE sweeps in places of employment. Enough raids will make it uncomfortable for all illegal immigrants. If Congress wants to infuse the border patrol with money, do so in a seperate bill, there is no need to tie it to what amounts to amnesty.

Good news indeed RetiredGySgt. Rumor has it that the Senate switchboard was shut down by incoming calls. When will they get the message? The people don't want this bill passed, they want the current laws enforced.
 

Care4all

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Care, we are not going to deport that many people, I agree. However if the laws were enforced regarding employment and punishing the employers severely, the 'hard working' illegals would leave and try to come back legally or work on a revolt against the corrupt governments in Mexico.

We should be deporting those that come into contact with the criminal justice issues.
So let's say a million of the 20 million come in contact with the Justice system and get deported Kathi, the other 19 million are still here, still working illegally and still holding wages down? (Amnesty for them) I can't see them running home to come in here legally...though, PERHAPS if our immigration quotas were upped bigtime, they might feel this way and go home to come in here legally.... Maybe we should just focus on the businesses that are hiring illegals? Upping the fines so high that none of them could afford to be caught, forcing them to let go their illegals and then, without work available the illegals will go home.

As far as the Mexican government doing their job and doing something about their dismal situation in Mexico....not a chance as long as they have the Bush's on their side, letting them import their workers here! A north American Union is being created as we speak, with no input or say so from our congress! :(

Mexicans are by far one of the hardest working groups of immigrants in America....you would THINK that if they were in Mexico, producing what they have produced here, their country's economy could support them all? I truely need to read more to understand what corruption is taking place to keep the Mexican economy in the gutter and not large enough to support their own citizens...
 

RetiredGySgt

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Are you dense? Perhaps cognitively impaired?

This is not some scheme that only Bush wanted. It was supported tooth and nail by Liberals. More importantly NEITHER party really wants to deport anyone.

Democrats see making illegals legal as a vote winning strategy now AND in the future. Republicans see allowing illegals to flood the work sector as a means to cheap labor.

NEITHER National Party wants a real change. Clinton aided and abetted the weakening of enforcement and made it so that local authorities were shut out on enforcement of deportation, he made it clear his admin was not interested in sending many people home that were illegal. Bush made it even worse, he completely shut down enforcement of and fines for employers hiring illegals. For at least 4 years under Bush there were almost NO cases brought.

This problem is not a single party problem, the entire powers that be, BOTH parties want no enforcement and no secure border.

I assure you those Senators did NOT get the message. From either party.
 

Annie

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So let's say a million of the 20 million come in contact with the Justice system and get deported Kathi,
right, deport those.
the other 19 million are still here, still working illegally and still holding wages down? (Amnesty for them)
The employers found employing illegals should be fined, heavily once or twice, then imprisoned. Those here to work then, will not be able to, illegally. They can certainly go back and attempt legal route, thus being able to legally work and get the benefits that go with it.
I can't see them running home to come in here legally...though, PERHAPS if our immigration quotas were upped bigtime, they might feel this way and go home to come in here legally....
which was only one of the myriad of things wrong with the immigration reform bill.
Maybe we should just focus on the businesses that are hiring illegals? Upping the fines so high that none of them could afford to be caught, forcing them to let go their illegals and then, without work available the illegals will go home.
Ah, some aggrement.
As far as the Mexican government doing their job and doing something about their dismal situation in Mexico....not a chance as long as they have the Bush's on their side, letting them import their workers here! A north American Union is being created as we speak, with no input or say so from our congress! :(

Mexicans are by far one of the hardest working groups of immigrants in America....you would THINK that if they were in Mexico, producing what they have produced here, their country's economy could support them all? I truely need to read more to understand what corruption is taking place to keep the Mexican economy in the gutter and not large enough to support their own citizens...
Those 'hardworking' Mexicans that are here illegally are probably the best hope for reform if not revolution, if they were in Mexico. But the chance of border nation, they have the alternative to run, they've been choosing that. I wouldn't say I'd do differently, but it's not in our country's best interest to allow it to continue.
 

Larkinn

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This is not some scheme that only Bush wanted. It was supported tooth and nail by Liberals. More importantly NEITHER party really wants to deport anyone.
Umm, no, actually it was not supported by Liberals. Hence why Reid kept asking Bush for support from Republicans. The Democrats who were against this bill were the far left ones...the ones you continually denigrate and insult.

The employers found employing illegals should be fined, heavily once or twice, then imprisoned. Those here to work then, will not be able to, illegally. They can certainly go back and attempt legal route, thus being able to legally work and get the benefits that go with it.
Just curious...considering our unemployment is quite low at the moment, where do you propose making up the sudden shortfall of 12 million workers?

Some food and construction costs have already gone up because of increased deportation of illegals...and as you admit the government has barely done anything so far.
 

RetiredGySgt

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Umm, no, actually it was not supported by Liberals. Hence why Reid kept asking Bush for support from Republicans. The Democrats who were against this bill were the far left ones...the ones you continually denigrate and insult.



Just curious...considering our unemployment is quite low at the moment, where do you propose making up the sudden shortfall of 12 million workers?

Some food and construction costs have already gone up because of increased deportation of illegals...and as you admit the government has barely done anything so far.
Are you also cognitively challenged? Reid ask for help because there are NOT 60 Liberals in the Senate. Lets see, Kennedy sponsored the bill, are you now claiming he is NOT a Liberal? I know lets get the list of Senators that VOTED to end debate and see what party they belong to and judge based on voting record whether they are somehow a conservative majority in the Democratic party. 43 Senators voted to end debate. I suspect most were in fact Democrats.

Prove me wrong, get us those names and a link to their voting records.
 

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