Christians and Anger

[Modbert]

i never told you that

what i DID tell you was that you had taken them out of context
which you had

Never said you did, simply telling you what I was told.

And again, not taken out of context.

 

[DiveCon]

Never said you did, simply telling you what I was told.

And again, not taken out of context.

yes, you did take them out of context
and i wasnt the only one to tell you so

 

[Care4all]

Jesus has shown some anger at times.

This is one of the more memorable ones I can remember.

BibleGateway.com - Passage*Lookup: Mt 21:11-17;

Yes He was Angry, in moderation, and His anger was perfectly appropriate for the situation of what was going on there at the temple.

In the name of God, these money changers and dove sellers were abusing God's people by charging to turn their Roman currency in to the Judeo currency needed to pay alms/worship....these were greedy capitalists as some say, but what they don't say is that it was the Holy Rabbi's and hierarchy of the religious temple, that were making the BUCK off of the religious laymen....these were their workers exchanging money and selling doves, to make a buck.... is what i have read.

 

[ABikerSailor]

yes, and the NT is available in greek

So what if it's available in Greek? Yeshua (Jesus) was a JEW! He spoke Hebrew, and taught like a rabbi.

What do the Greeks have to do with anything other than getting it wrong in the first place? Remember, since the Greeks translated from the Jews (OT), some of the things that they translated weren't able to convert from Hebrew to Greek very well....which means the translations from Greek to English are going to be screwed up also. Ever play telephone as a child?

And......if the original tree sprouts branches (like Judaism did with Christianity), doesn't that make the branches part of the tree also? If you cut it down at the trunk, the branches farther up will also die, so, it would behoove you to recognize where the root is (Judaism) and start from there. Along the way, you may find (like I did), there is a LOT of stuff in Christianity that has been twisted down through the ages.

The way that the church treated Mary after Yeshua's crucifixion was pretty shoddy too by the way, but that was because of Paul, who didn't really like women that much in leadership positions.

May wanna check again Dive Can't, Master Baiter of the Deep Blue Seas.

 

[Care4all]

So what if it's available in Greek? Yeshua (Jesus) was a JEW! He spoke Hebrew, and taught like a rabbi.

What do the Greeks have to do with anything other than getting it wrong in the first place? Remember, since the Greeks translated from the Jews (OT), some of the things that they translated weren't able to convert from Hebrew to Greek very well....which means the translations from Greek to English are going to be screwed up also. Ever play telephone as a child?

And......if the original tree sprouts branches (like Judaism did with Christianity), doesn't that make the branches part of the tree also? If you cut it down at the trunk, the branches farther up will also die, so, it would behoove you to recognize where the root is (Judaism) and start from there. Along the way, you may find (like I did), there is a LOT of stuff in Christianity that has been twisted down through the ages.

The way that the church treated Mary after Yeshua's crucifixion was pretty shoddy too by the way, but that was because of Paul, who didn't really like women that much in leadership positions.

May wanna check again Dive Can't, Master Baiter of the Deep Blue Seas.

ty for the rep on sky's behalf!

but here is what i found on it....apparently the New Testament was primarily written in Greek....and the Old testament in hebrew or aramaic...

The Bible is the central religious text of Judaism and Christianity.[1] The exact composition of the Bible is dependent on the religious traditions of specific denominations. Modern Judaism generally recognizes a single set of canonical books known as the Tanakh, or Hebrew or Jewish Bible.[2] It comprises three parts: the Torah ("Teaching", also known as the Pentateuch or "Five Books of Moses"), the Prophets, and the Writings. It was primarily written in Hebrew with some small portions in Aramaic.

The Christian Bible includes the same books as the Tanakh (referred to in this context as the Old Testament), but usually in a different order, together with twenty-seven specifically Christian books collectively known as the New Testament. Those were originally written in Greek. Among some traditions, the Bible includes books that were not accepted in other traditions, often referred to as apocryphal. Eastern Orthodox Churches use all of the books that were incorporated into the Septuagint, to which they add the earliest Greek translation of the Deuterocanonicals;[3] Roman Catholics include seven of these books in their canon; and many Protestant Bibles follow the modern Jewish canon, excluding the additional books. Some editions of the Christian Bible have a separate Biblical apocrypha section for books not considered canonical.

so, if the Bible quotes are from the New Testament then the original greek would be appropriate, and if a passage from the Tanakh, original Hebrew would be appropriate, for a better translation!

Iwas reading something yesterday that was explaining that Hebrew was a very precise language, and when translated, a lot was lost in meaning!!!

For example, the term used in the english versions, of GOD'S WRATH or wrath actually has 7 different words in hebrew, yet in english, we called them ALL ''wrath'', when most of the 7 hebrew words did not really translate to the meaning of wrath in the english language dictionary.....?

care

 

[sky dancer]

Yes He was Angry, in moderation, and His anger was perfectly appropriate for the situation of what was going on there at the temple.

In the name of God, these money changers and dove sellers were abusing God's people by charging to turn their Roman currency in to the Judeo currency needed to pay alms/worship....these were greedy capitalists as some say, but what they don't say is that it was the Holy Rabbi's and hierarchy of the religious temple, that were making the BUCK off of the religious laymen....these were their workers exchanging money and selling doves, to make a buck.... is what i have read.

This story about Jesus gets used ALOT to justify anger. I don't think it's used well.

Why is it NOT used to keep Christians from making their mega-churches profit and political machines?

I'm unfortunately disappointed in the manner some Christians use this passage to justify their anger and hatred. Anger isn't 'righteous' just because we have a reason for it.

How is the anger used? If Jesus motivation in displaying wrath in the temple was because he saw that those doing the money changing in the temple WERE HARMING THEMSELVES as well as inappropriately caring out business in a place designed for spiritual practice then I would call that anger 'righteous because the motivation is to protect others from harm.. ALL others.

What would Jesus think of Pat Robertson, James Dobson and the various Christian political powers now? Would he be happy? I don't think so.

IMO, so-called 'righteous' anger is a slippery slope.

 

[DiveCon]

So what if it's available in Greek? Yeshua (Jesus) was a JEW! He spoke Hebrew, and taught like a rabbi.

What do the Greeks have to do with anything other than getting it wrong in the first place? Remember, since the Greeks translated from the Jews (OT), some of the things that they translated weren't able to convert from Hebrew to Greek very well....which means the translations from Greek to English are going to be screwed up also. Ever play telephone as a child?

And......if the original tree sprouts branches (like Judaism did with Christianity), doesn't that make the branches part of the tree also? If you cut it down at the trunk, the branches farther up will also die, so, it would behoove you to recognize where the root is (Judaism) and start from there. Along the way, you may find (like I did), there is a LOT of stuff in Christianity that has been twisted down through the ages.

The way that the church treated Mary after Yeshua's crucifixion was pretty shoddy too by the way, but that was because of Paul, who didn't really like women that much in leadership positions.

May wanna check again Dive Can't, Master Baiter of the Deep Blue Seas.

dude, seriously
stop
you're making yourself look worse

Jesus spoke aramaic

 

[ABikerSailor]

dude, seriously
stop
you're making yourself look worse

Jesus spoke aramaic

No shit Sherlock, what was your first freaking clue? The fact that the Bible SAYS He spoke Aramaic? But......you also realize that He spent quite a bit of time in the Temple debating the Rabbis also, which means He spoke Hebrew ALSO IDIOT!

Most Jews that I know speak both Hebrew and English, with quite a few others knowing several languages beyond that.

Furthermore, God wrote the Torah, He wrote it in Hebrew, and Jesus is Gods Son, so therefore, He would more than likely speak Hebrew also.

You know.......Dive Can't is too good a nickname for you. You're so brain dead that I'm going to call you a new nickname.......

Diving Chum, as in bait.

Yep......Diving Chum, the Master Baiter of the Deep Blue Sea.

 

[DiveCon]

No shit Sherlock, what was your first freaking clue? The fact that the Bible SAYS He spoke Aramaic? But......you also realize that He spent quite a bit of time in the Temple debating the Rabbis also, which means He spoke Hebrew ALSO IDIOT!

Most Jews that I know speak both Hebrew and English, with quite a few others knowing several languages beyond that.

Furthermore, God wrote the Torah, He wrote it in Hebrew, and Jesus is Gods Son, so therefore, He would more than likely speak Hebrew also.

You know.......Dive Can't is too good a nickname for you. You're so brain dead that I'm going to call you a new nickname.......

Diving Chum, as in bait.

Yep......Diving Chum, the Master Baiter of the Deep Blue Sea.

dude, take a prozac

 

[Care4all]

This story about Jesus gets used ALOT to justify anger. I don't think it's used well.

Why is it NOT used to keep Christians from making their mega-churches profit and political machines?

I'm unfortunately disappointed in the manner some Christians use this passage to justify their anger and hatred. Anger isn't 'righteous' just because we have a reason for it.

How is the anger used? If Jesus motivation in displaying wrath in the temple was because he saw that those doing the money changing in the temple WERE HARMING THEMSELVES as well as inappropriately caring out business in a place designed for spiritual practice then I would call that anger 'righteous because the motivation is to protect others from harm.. ALL others.

What would Jesus think of Pat Robertson, James Dobson and the various Christian political powers now? Would he be happy? I don't think so.

IMO, so-called 'righteous' anger is a slippery slope.

You pose some good points....but to a degree, you put the blame where the blame does not belong, with Jesus when you speak of so called righteous anger is a slippery slope....

Righteous anger, like that of Jesus at the temple, was just that, "righteous" anger, and anger deserved.

Where the slippery slope comes in is with anger that is not righteous but labeled as such, by sinners....liars.

It is up to us to discern their evil, but this makes Christ's righteous anger no less righteous imo....( notice that he turned some tables and he chased some rotten people and animals away who were abusing lowly worshipers)

He did not punch anyone, he did not shoot anyone, he did not kill anyone....he did not touch anyone.

And i pretty much think this could be what you were saying also....?



Did Buddah ever get angry?

Care

 

[sky dancer]

You pose some good points....but to a degree, you put the blame where the blame does not belong, with Jesus when you speak of so called righteous anger is a slippery slope....

Righteous anger, like that of Jesus at the temple, was just that, "righteous" anger, and anger deserved.

Where the slippery slope comes in is with anger that is not righteous but labeled as such, by sinners....liars.

It is up to us to discern their evil, but this makes Christ's righteous anger no less righteous imo....( notice that he turned some tables and he chased some rotten people and animals away who were abusing lowly worshipers)

He did not punch anyone, he did not shoot anyone, he did not kill anyone....he did not touch anyone.

And i pretty much think this could be what you were saying also....?



Did Buddah ever get angry?
Care

No. The Buddha did not get angry.

I think you misunderstood my point. I am not blaming Jesus. I am questioning whether he was motivated by kind regard for all--incudling those he thought were harm-doers.

You did not comment on the mega-churches doing the same thing as those in the temple. Religion is big business and big politics.

 

[Care4all]

No. The Buddha did not get angry.

I think you misunderstood my point. I am not blaming Jesus. I am questioning whether he was motivated by kind regard for all--incudling those he thought were harm-doers.

You did not comment on the mega-churches doing the same thing as those in the temple. Religion is big business and big politics.

Yes the mega-churches and even some smaller churches, do the same and i do not think that Christ would be pleased! But we were forwarned about this....and those that study the Word, know to beware of wolves in sheeps clothing, False Prophets or False Doctrine spreaders or just plain evil people that use others for their own financial gain!!! These are not people of other Faiths, these are people that are within the Christian Faith....to me, the warnings we got, were about so called Christians....some people twist this or they just misunderstand the Word to make this out to be "other" faiths, but to me with my studies, it is clearly Christians spreading false Christian doctrine and proclaiming things that are outside of the true meaning of the Word.

He did no harm to those he chased away and YES I am certain He considered the doings of all involved before He did what He did and those that got his admonishment, deserved his admonishment. Thus, His Righteous anger.

care

 

[Modbert]

Yes the mega-churches and even some smaller churches, do the same and i do not think that Christ would be pleased! But we were forwarned about this....and those that study the Word, know to beware of wolves in sheeps clothing, False Prophets or False Doctrine spreaders or just plain evil people that use others for their own financial gain!!! These are not people of other Faiths, these are people that are within the Christian Faith....to me, the warnings we got, were about so called Christians....some people twist this or they just misunderstand the Word to make this out to be "other" faiths, but to me with my studies, it is clearly Christians spreading false Christian doctrine and proclaiming things that are outside of the true meaning of the Word.

He did no harm to those he chased away and YES I am certain He considered the doings of all involved before He did what He did and those that got his admonishment, deserved his admonishment. Thus, His Righteous anger.

care

To me, those warnings I quoted earlier were for other religions. Still believing in God and Jesus with a little mix wasn't a huge problem for the church of the time. The problem was people being converted to other religions which was more commonplace back then. I don't know too many people who convert from one God religion to another today. Usually it's from a religion with a god/without a god to one which is the opposite.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Well.....part of this blame should lay squarely on the Catholic church, as they are the ones that bastardized the Christian religion the most.

 

[garyd]

In the Bible what motivates your anger is the important thing. It is one thing to be angry because your ego has been pinched a bit. To be angry at injustice is to be expected of the Christian.

 

[Modbert]

In the Bible what motivates your anger is the important thing. It is one thing to be angry because your ego has been pinched a bit. To be angry at injustice is to be expected of the Christian.

And Jesus's anger at the injustice of slavery was...where?

 

[Care4all]

To me, those warnings I quoted earlier were for other religions. Still believing in God and Jesus with a little mix wasn't a huge problem for the church of the time. The problem was people being converted to other religions which was more commonplace back then. I don't know too many people who convert from one God religion to another today. Usually it's from a religion with a god/without a god to one which is the opposite.

nope robert! not other religions.....they were various Christian Churches....and even in Revelation, where Christ addresses the 7 churches, and he confronts each one, with naming the Church ministry, then proceeding to say....''i know your deeds....'' and He critics each church, showing them WHERE THEY went WRONG....

The disciples Paul, and John and the other passages/scripture you quoted was directed towards false christian ministries that were arising....this is a CONSTANT background THEME of the new testament, ending in revelation.

do you think people were different back then....than now? That everything was easy and peachy keen, with no money hungry or power hungry or deceitful, manipulative so called preachers preying on people?

BTW, the Bible WARNS of one word taken out (or added to) the Scripture that belongs in there or does not....and tells the punishment for doing such...

AS I said earlier on this thread, I don't think God would have warned us not to mess with the Scripture and layout the eternal punishment for that, IF SOME ONE OR MANY, WERE NOT GOING TO MESS WITH IT.....ya know?

So, I would be pretty certain that the Bible as it stands may not be so perfect....but God also gave us a remedy, and said we should verify certain scripture, WITH Scripture....in other words, we can not take a single passage and the meaning of it and know that it is truly inspired by God without seeing and verifying that it is supported by other Scripture and the Nature of God that the Bible has given us knowledge of, overall...

I am set to believe that we might be missing some inspired books of the Bible that the Early Church chose to leave out....shoot we have scripture in the Bible that mentions the book of jubilee, yet the book of jubilee never made it in to the Bible...? And I believe book of Jubilee was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls ....

I am totally open on this....

yes, the Bible may not be perfect....I'm ok with that because i know it could have been messed with some...

but it still does not SHAKE my faith, my belief in GOD, - Jesus, and Spirit...

Faith has A lot to do with it....no doubt!

care

 

[sky dancer]

Care--

Where do you think faith comes from?

 

[Modbert]

nope robert! not other religions.....they were various Christian Churches....and even in Revelation, where Christ addresses the 7 churches, and he confronts each one, with naming the Church ministry, then proceeding to say....''i know your deeds....'' and He critics each church, showing them WHERE THEY went WRONG....

The disciples Paul, and John and the other passages/scripture you quoted was directed towards false christian ministries that were arising....this is a CONSTANT background THEME of the new testament, ending in revelation.

do you think people were different back then....than now? That everything was easy and peachy keen, with no money hungry or power hungry or deceitful, manipulative so called preachers preying on people?

BTW, the Bible WARNS of one word taken out (or added to) the Scripture that belongs in there or does not....and tells the punishment for doing such...

AS I said earlier on this thread, I don't think God would have warned us not to mess with the Scripture and layout the eternal punishment for that, IF SOME ONE OR MANY, WERE NOT GOING TO MESS WITH IT.....ya know?

So, I would be pretty certain that the Bible as it stands may not be so perfect....but God also gave us a remedy, and said we should verify certain scripture, WITH Scripture....in other words, we can not take a single passage and the meaning of it and know that it is truly inspired by God without seeing and verifying that it is supported by other Scripture and the Nature of God that the Bible has given us knowledge of, overall...

I am set to believe that we might be missing some inspired books of the Bible that the Early Church chose to leave out....shoot we have scripture in the Bible that mentions the book of jubilee, yet the book of jubilee never made it in to the Bible...? And I believe book of Jubilee was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls ....

I am totally open on this....

yes, the Bible may not be perfect....I'm ok with that because i know it could have been messed with some...

but it still does not SHAKE my faith, my belief in GOD, - Jesus, and Spirit...

Faith has A lot to do with it....no doubt!

care

I'm not trying to convert you to Atheism care as myself am a Christian. However, you and myself could find a way to justify our points from the bible, even get the same verses and say "this is what they truly mean."

You say the bible may not be perfect, but you defended it at every turn, even when I showed the American Bible site saying slaves in that time had no rights. You said they had "biblical" rights but I never seen such a thing. All I've seen in the bible about slavery is how slaves should obey their masters and double their kindness so their masters may see some sort of light.

If God and Jesus were as perfect as we like to think, they would of spoken out about these injustices. Or how about the fact that no women served in the church as priests but rather nuns? Or they could of talked about how Homosexuality is an lifestyle that is alright to live by or at the very least should not get you killed?

Why not speak out about such injustices in the world? Because more and more I believe that the bible was merely a man made book with no God or Jesus really having no input into it.

Case and Point? The Gospel of Mary and as you mentioned the book of Jubilee being left out. The people editing this book left out anything that might of gone against anything they spoke about.

I understand men were writers at the time, but it is not a surprise that if men and women are supposedly equal as God and Jesus teach us that no women have any part of what went in the bible?

Unless I'm hugely mistake, you are a woman and this does not anger you how?

 

[Care4all]

And Jesus's anger at the injustice of slavery was...where?

what in the world is this obsession with slavery Robert? IS this some kind of requirement for Jesus to be God? WHAT is it that is eating at you?

what is it about freewill that you don't understand? Do you think God was going to give us Free will and then TAKE IT BACK and not be a so called "man of His word"?

Why didn't God step in and give women rights? Why didn't He make women be allowed to vote in the USA from the very beginning? Why didn't he stop the tsunami of 2004? Why does He allow any of the bad to happen?

Because He gave US freewill and HE is not going to renege such.....its part of why we are here on Earth.

He still mourns and He still takes the blame for what happens here....The buck stops with Him because He is the one that gave us our Freewill and decided to leave us alone and step away regarding such....is my understanding of it....

An Example is Soloman, God says He killed Soloman, then a couple of passages after this He proceeds to tell us that Soloman killed himself by falling on his own sword.

What He is telling us, is that the Buck stops with Him, because He gave Soloman freewill....

There are many instances like this throughout the Bible where God first says He did it, then later goes on to say how someone else or something else physically did it.

the "He did it" is Him saying He gave us freewill which caused it to happen, without Him intervening imo and the opinion of some other theologians...

Care