Christianity vs. Islam thread

[Said1]

Ever heard of RAWA? They've had a huge impact in Afghanistan.

Actually, I have. But I stand by what I said. When you look at progress of basic human rights, especially women's rights, theocracies do NOThave a good track record over the last 100 yrs. Afghanistan, having gone from a fairly progressive state, was thrown back into the dark ages by the Taliban and their religious rule based on Sharia law, probably worse than other theocracies.

Also, I may have strayed from my original point by saying the Mid East in response to you, but I was clearly referring to theocracies in previous posts - and am now, BTW.

 

[Mariner]

Yes, the Northeast is known for its frugality. But we're also a wealthier part of the country, so when you look at percentages given, you need to take that into account.

Why would I want to work for a Christian charity? In any case, I don't need to. As a phsycian with many poor and working poor patients, I have ample opportunity to provide services for free--to all the uninsured people that Bush is making sure we have more and more of.

I don't hate Christianity at all. I've told you many times that my wife is Catholic and that our daughter is being raised Catholic. I even attended a Lutheran school one time. My mom was educated in a Christian medical school in India (back when Harvard Medical School didn't admit women--just 50 years ago).

I do dislike when people define themselves as "good" and refuse to look at all sides of who and what they really are. I also don't like hypocrisy, talking one way but behaving another. Christianity, like all human enterprises, has its share of these problems, e.g. the Catholic church sexual abuse scandal.

I've pointed out before that you are Osama bin Laden's dream--the American incited by 9/11 to hate Islam, who will cause more Muslims to hate Christians, and ignite the final war between the religions. Your counterpart in the Islamic world is a similarly angry and rigid believer in the "one true God"--it's just a different god. Doesn't Christianity promote tolerance? Where's your tolerance to people of different religions, or your tolerance for people willing to criticize aspects of yours?

You obviously haven't gotten Nightwish's point that when you use ad hominem attacks, i.e. insulting the person instead of providing an actual argument in response, it's the debating equivalent of giving up.

Mariner.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Yes, the Northeast is known for its frugality. But we're also a wealthier part of the country, so when you look at percentages given, you need to take that into account.

Why would I want to work for a Christian charity? In any case, I don't need to. As a phsycian with many poor and working poor patients, I have ample opportunity to provide services for free--to all the uninsured people that Bush is making sure we have more and more of.

I don't hate Christianity at all. I've told you many times that my wife is Catholic and that our daughter is being raised Catholic. I even attended a Lutheran school one time. My mom was educated in a Christian medical school in India (back when Harvard Medical School didn't admit women--just 50 years ago).

I do dislike when people define themselves as "good" and refuse to look at all sides of who and what they really are. I also don't like hypocrisy, talking one way but behaving another. Christianity, like all human enterprises, has its share of these problems, e.g. the Catholic church sexual abuse scandal.

I've pointed out before that you are Osama bin Laden's dream--the American incited by 9/11 to hate Islam, who will cause more Muslims to hate Christians, and ignite the final war between the religions. Your counterpart in the Islamic world is a similarly angry and rigid believer in the "one true God"--it's just a different god. Doesn't Christianity promote tolerance? Where's your tolerance to people of different religions, or your tolerance for people willing to criticize aspects of yours?

You obviously haven't gotten Nightwish's point that when you use ad hominem attacks, i.e. insulting the person instead of providing an actual argument in response, it's the debating equivalent of giving up.

Mariner.

Why do you pretend that christians are still in a crusade mindset when we've created the most open and tolerant sociey on earth? The war is not between christians and muslims. It's Between jihadis and everyone who doesn't want to be converted to islam by force. I know it's politically correct to refuse to see actual differences in things, or analyze to a depth more detailed than a simplistic slogan, but try to get a grip on reality.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Yes, the Northeast is known for its frugality. But we're also a wealthier part of the country, so when you look at percentages given, you need to take that into account.

Why would I want to work for a Christian charity? In any case, I don't need to. As a phsycian with many poor and working poor patients, I have ample opportunity to provide services for free--to all the uninsured people that Bush is making sure we have more and more of.

I don't hate Christianity at all. I've told you many times that my wife is Catholic and that our daughter is being raised Catholic. I even attended a Lutheran school one time. My mom was educated in a Christian medical school in India (back when Harvard Medical School didn't admit women--just 50 years ago).

I do dislike when people define themselves as "good" and refuse to look at all sides of who and what they really are. I also don't like hypocrisy, talking one way but behaving another. Christianity, like all human enterprises, has its share of these problems, e.g. the Catholic church sexual abuse scandal.

I've pointed out before that you are Osama bin Laden's dream--the American incited by 9/11 to hate Islam, who will cause more Muslims to hate Christians, and ignite the final war between the religions. Your counterpart in the Islamic world is a similarly angry and rigid believer in the "one true God"--it's just a different god. Doesn't Christianity promote tolerance? Where's your tolerance to people of different religions, or your tolerance for people willing to criticize aspects of yours?

You obviously haven't gotten Nightwish's point that when you use ad hominem attacks, i.e. insulting the person instead of providing an actual argument in response, it's the debating equivalent of giving up.

Mariner.

so, you are saying that if a person is rich, they should be taxed at a higher rate, but not expected to give to charities at a higher rate?

You are simply wrong on all counts. I am OBL worst nightmare. I send letters of congratulations every time we take out a terrorist. He is NOT EFFECTIVE anymore because of people like me. I and many others here support the ongoing efforts that have stifled their attempts at terrorism on American soil to the tune of NO attacks since 9/11. 100% effective is a pretty good score.

As for criticizing the Christians, I think there is a saying, dont criticize someone untill you have walked in their shoes. Go walk the Christian path of charity for some time, then your criticism might actually carry some weight. Otherwise all your pithy comments serve only to bolster yourself and your self delusional allies who think we are the problem, not radical Islamists.

and no, attacks are NOT the equivalent of giving up. Only if they are ALL one does. I have totally destroyed many of his posts to which he hasnt responded, then he tried to take the topic off course, I called him on it, and now he declares victory cuz I wont go off topic with him. PATHETIC.

By the way, same thing with you, if you dont volunteer for some Christian charity, whatever your reason, then your opinion of what Christians do in this world isnt worth the result ends of the food I give my dog. (and that would be before it dissolves into tiny particles of plant food, you know, the stenchy stage, )

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Why do you pretend that christians are still in a crusade mindset when we've created the most open and tolerant sociey on earth? The war is not between christians and muslims. It's Between jihadis and everyone who doesn't want to be converted to islam by force. I know it's politically correct to refuse to see actual differences in things, or analyze to a depth more detailed than a simplistic slogan, but try to get a grip on reality.

Im going to add to your excellent point by saying that Muslims who do not sound out loud against terrorism by radical Islamists are also part of the problem. They are the only ones who have the power to state uncategorically that they are opposed, and Islam is opposed to violence as a means to convert and subdue.

 

[Nightwish]

Thats why IM talking about others who do the Christian charitable deeds you dweeb.

Yes, that's called advertising. It's called bragging about the good deeds of your people. It's called putting your people on a pedestal. The people who themselves are truly charitable for selfless reasons needn't advertise about it. The fact that you are so eager to advertise it makes your motives seem anything but selfless and charitable. Aggrandizing is the better word.

 

[MissileMan]

Im going to add to your excellent point by saying that Muslims who do not sound out loud against terrorism by radical Islamists are also part of the problem. They are the only ones who have the power to state uncategorically that they are opposed, and Islam is opposed to violence as a means to convert and subdue.

Do you mean in the same manner that Christians everywhere have stood up and proclaimed their outrage over the sex abuse scandals in the Catholic Church? It may be realistic to expect the leaders of of the supposed "non-hostile" Muslim nations to make statements against terrorism, but to express disappointment in the average Muslim for not abandoning their daily struggles to make ends meet in order to become political activists is quite naive.

 

[Mariner]

of your points:

1. RightWing--I do not believe that Christians are currently in a Crusader mindset. I do worry that this mindset is stimulated all too easily, and is deep in our culture. Osama bin Laden knew that, and hoped to engender exactly the type of thing LuvRPgirl represents--someone who sends congratulations letters every time a terrorist is killed, just the type of angry Christian he wants. When I've commented on the Crusades it's more often been to try to help people understand the Muslim view of an invasion or occupation, which takes them right back to the experience of the Crusades.

2. LuvRPgirl, I agree that it would help immensely if more moderate Muslims spoke openly against terrorism. I think there are two problems involved. One, it's as if their team is losing. Most Muslims do have some identification with the cause of other Muslims. It's similar to the way Irish-Americans funnelled millions to the I.R.A., even though, if you cornered them, they would have said terrorism was wrong. Second, and much more importantly, there is no tradition of speaking out individually in the Muslim culture. I read a fascinating book called "Hellfire Nation" last year. It's about the history of religion in America. One of the things I learned from it is that from the beginning, the heretical character of many American forms of Christianity meant that there was an open invitation to speak out. Any member of a congregation could speak in defiance of the preacher, and many did. Some left and formed their own new communities and new churches. This tradition, now 400 years old, was a very important part of our sense of individual power--that we can speak out for what we believe.

By contrast, Islam has a serious problem with church/state separation. The church and state are seen as one. Therefore, one's religious leaders speak for you, and you stay out of politics.

(Not all Muslims are this way. One Muslim-owned restaurant where I eat lunch frequently has a shrine to peace between Muslims and Christians. The owner is outspoken in the community, and a truly good man. His employees tell me about the intense harrassment they've suffered since 9/11. I've suffered it too, as a brown-skinned person living in an affluent suburb--I've now been stopped by the police in my town 7 times without cause.)

Mariner.

 

[Mariner]

I don't understand why you're encouraging me, a Hindu, to particpate in Christian charity... ? My charity consists of seeing uninsured patients for free and giving money to charities of my choice, none of which happen to be Christian. By the way, traditional Muslims give 1/10th of their earnings to the poor. Do you give that much?

Mariner.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I don't understand why you're encouraging me, a Hindu, to particpate in Christian charity... ? My charity consists of seeing uninsured patients for free and giving money to charities of my choice, none of which happen to be Christian. By the way, traditional Muslims give 1/10th of their earnings to the poor. Do you give that much?

Mariner.

Traditional muslims also kill their daughters for getting raped, lock girls in burning builidings because they are without their headscarves, and teach their young to spread islam through suicide bombing. Does that 1/10 to islamic charities, which eventually goes to hamas, make up for that? You really need to learn to think.

 

[Avatar4321]

I don't understand why you're encouraging me, a Hindu, to particpate in Christian charity... ? My charity consists of seeing uninsured patients for free and giving money to charities of my choice, none of which happen to be Christian. By the way, traditional Muslims give 1/10th of their earnings to the poor. Do you give that much?

Mariner.

Not true. The tithe or 1/10th is a JudeoChristian tradition. Muslims are only required to 2.5% and i believe thats 2.5% after living expenses.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/pillars/fasting/tajuddin/fast_79.html

There is more information on it.

 

[Hobbit]

Not true. The tithe or 1/10th is a JudeoChristian tradition. Muslims are only required to 2.5% and i believe thats 2.5% after living expenses.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/pillars/fasting/tajuddin/fast_79.html

There is more information on it.

Yes, as a Christian, I consider it a 10% minimum before taxes.

 

[Mariner]

figure from a history of Islam that I read last year. I'll certainly check it out.

RightWing, by "traditional" I meant the average law-abiding Muslim, of whom there are hundreds of millions. They could equally well look at America and note how violent we are. You're far safer on the streets of Delhi than on the streets of any major American city. We lock up a higher percentage of our population than any other Western country, and we're one of only a handful of countries on earth that still use capital punishment. Our culture looks violent and decadent from the traditional Muslim point of view.

(Of course I absolutely agree with you that some traditional practices that are still followed in some areas are abhorrent, just as I abhor the dowry-based bride-killings in Indian Hindu culture. I'm just saying we ought to look at our own dirty underbelly too.)

Mariner.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

figure from a history of Islam that I read last year. I'll certainly check it out.

RightWing, by "traditional" I meant the average law-abiding Muslim, of whom there are hundreds of millions. They could equally well look at America and note how violent we are. You're far safer on the streets of Delhi than on the streets of any major American city. We lock up a higher percentage of our population than any other Western country, and we're one of only a handful of countries on earth that still use capital punishment. Our culture looks violent and decadent from the traditional Muslim point of view.

(Of course I absolutely agree with you that some traditional practices that are still followed in some areas are abhorrent, just as I abhor the dowry-based bride-killings in Indian Hindu culture. I'm just saying we ought to look at our own dirty underbelly too.)

Mariner.

Do you mean the muslims living in dirt with state controlled media? Delhi is Hardly a muslim city. And people in grinding poverty like the untouchables in your fair society don't have the energy to commit crimes. If our underbelly is so filthy why don't you just leave then? WHy are you here?

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Do you mean in the same manner that Christians everywhere have stood up and proclaimed their outrage over the sex abuse scandals in the Catholic Church? It may be realistic to expect the leaders of of the supposed "non-hostile" Muslim nations to make statements against terrorism, but to express disappointment in the average Muslim for not abandoning their daily struggles to make ends meet in order to become political activists is quite naive.

You are going to compare the terrorists to the sex scandals?
What type of twisting thinking goes on inside of you?
Do the catholics who do the molesting make video tapes and proclaim they do it in the name of God?
And no, its not naive. They certainly were capable of getting in the streets and cheering when the twin towers came down. I would say you are naive, but it goes waaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyy beyond that.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

of your points:

1. RightWing--I do not believe that Christians are currently in a Crusader mindset. I do worry that this mindset is stimulated all too easily, and is deep in our culture..

Your a whacked paranoid psychotic.

Osama bin Laden knew that, and hoped to engender exactly the type of thing LuvRPgirl represents--someone who sends congratulations letters every time a terrorist is killed,.

HAHAHHAHAH, Yea, thats why OBL is so effective these days eh? AHHAHAHAHHAHAHAH
Ohhhhh, let me clue you in. Since we started attacking the terrorists in just the way I support, we havent had any, zero, terrorist attacks on US soil. OBL, your hero, is no longer effective.

just the type of angry Christian he wants. When I've commented on the Crusades it's more often been to try to help people understand the Muslim view of an invasion or occupation, which takes them right back to the experience of the Crusades.

2. LuvRPgirl, I agree that it would help immensely if more moderate Muslims spoke openly against terrorism. I think there are two problems involved. One, it's as if their team is losing. Most Muslims do have some identification with the cause of other Muslims. It's similar to the way Irish-Americans funnelled millions to the I.R.A., even though, if you cornered them, they would have said terrorism was wrong..

Your a fucking wacko dude. I would like to see you go to an Irish pub and say things like that. VERY< VERY few Irish in America supported killing civilians in any way shape or form.

Second, and much more importantly, there is no tradition of speaking out individually in the Muslim culture. I read a fascinating book called "Hellfire Nation" last year. It's about the history of religion in America. One of the things I learned from it is that from the beginning, the heretical character of many American forms of Christianity meant that there was an open invitation to speak out. Any member of a congregation could speak in defiance of the preacher, and many did. Some left and formed their own new communities and new churches. This tradition, now 400 years old, was a very important part of our sense of individual power--that we can speak out for what we believe.

By contrast, Islam has a serious problem with church/state separation. The church and state are seen as one. Therefore, one's religious leaders speak for you, and you stay out of politics.

(Not all Muslims are this way. One Muslim-owned restaurant where I eat lunch frequently has a shrine to peace between Muslims and Christians. The owner is outspoken in the community, and a truly good man. His employees tell me about the intense harrassment they've suffered since 9/11. I've suffered it too, as a brown-skinned person living in an affluent suburb--I've now been stopped by the police in my town 7 times without cause.)

Mariner.

Uh, sorry to tell you this, but the Muslim leadership also hasnt denounced the terrorists.

Psss, hey Mariner, c'mon now. Just between me and you, this is some sort of a college frat prank eh? You dont really believe the dribble you post do you? I mean, nobody can be that stupid eh? Well, other than the two smartest guys on the board.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

I don't understand why you're encouraging me, a Hindu, to particpate in Christian charity... ? My charity consists of seeing uninsured patients for free and giving money to charities of my choice, none of which happen to be Christian. By the way, traditional Muslims give 1/10th of their earnings to the poor. Do you give that much?

Mariner.

If you dont participate just to find out what most of Chrisitianity is involved in, then you have no business writing such judemental statements. It destroys what little credibility you have.

Do I give that much, hell no...I give way more.

 

[Mariner]

that you put your money where your mouth is, and happy to learn that I do have a shred of credibility on this board.

Mariner.

 

[MissileMan]

You are going to compare the terrorists to the sex scandals?

I wasn't comparing the misdeeds, I was comparing the reaction to them. But, all things considered, I would have to say that ruining someone's life is pretty close to as bad as ending it.

Do the catholics who do the molesting make video tapes and proclaim they do it in the name of God?

No, but they use their positions in the service of God to gain access to and the trust of their victims. It's as least as despicable.

And no, its not naive. They certainly were capable of getting in the streets and cheering when the twin towers came down. I would say you are naive, but it goes waaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyy beyond that.

A few thousand out of millions? C'Mon...your expectations are unrealistic.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

I wasn't comparing the misdeeds, I was comparing the reaction to them. But, all things considered, I would have to say that ruining someone's life is pretty close to as bad as ending it..

sorry, not even close. But you ignored the REASONS I gave why they arent comparable. The terrorists and their liberal sympathizers give excuses why their murderous acts arent wrong. I dont see anyone, including the priests themselves, claiming what they did was ok. Hence, no need to cry out against the priests by the Christian faithful.

No, but they use their positions in the service of God to gain access to and the trust of their victims. It's as least as despicable..

again, I put it that way to show how much different it is than the terrorists, and why it isnt necessary for Christians to cry out against it. We all know Christians are opposed. We dont know who and which Muslims support or oppose the terrorists. Terrorists are sometimes funded by tithing by some muslims. Do some Christian churches send money from their tithing to support priests to go molest? The comparision you made was ludicrous at best.

A few thousand out of millions? C'Mon...your expectations are unrealistic.

You dont hold your arguements to the same standards you hold mine. If a few thousand could get into the streets and cheer the twin towers, why couldnt they do that to oppose terrorism too? Oppps, that because they were CHEERING IT ON. I dont see Christians going to the streets celebrating molesting priests.