Zone1 Christian Zionism

[alang1216]

Sure I have. The Tower of Babel is the allegorical account of the migration away from the cradle of civilization - Mesopotamia. That is the historical event. The elements are same language, same region to different languages and different regions. The narrative of why the account was embellished (i.e. God was angered and scattered the people) is debatable. It's not covenant related. It could be obedience related. As in they were trying to find another way to heaven other than the way that God had already determined. Or it could simply be that they were describing God intended for diversity.

The whole world had the same language and the same words. When they were migrating from the east, they came to a valley in the land of Shinar and settled there. They said to one another, “Come, let us mold bricks and harden them with fire.” They used bricks for stone, and bitumen for mortar. Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the sky, and so make a name for ourselves; otherwise we shall be scattered all over the earth.” The LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the people had built. Then the LORD said: If now, while they are one people and all have the same language, they have started to do this, nothing they presume to do will be out of their reach. Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that no one will understand the speech of another. So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. That is why it was called Babel, because there the LORD confused the speech of all the world. From there the LORD scattered them over all the earth.

I agree the account is an embellishment to explain why there are so many different languages. (It likely an ancient myth even in the bronze age). Can you find an account where we disagree?

No. You haven't.

Have to.

 

[ding]

I agree the account is an embellishment to explain why there are so many different languages. (It likely an ancient myth even in the bronze age). Can you find an account where we disagree?

You tell me. The flood? Killing all men, women and children? Lot?

Have to.

Your post #397 says otherwise. And you know it.

 

[ding]

I agree the account is an embellishment to explain why there are so many different languages.

Do you agree there is an historical basis? Do you agree they used stories to pass down knowledge, wisdom and history?

(It likely an ancient myth even in the bronze age).

Yes, the timeline is from when there was a shared culture (Sumerian times) but was a predominantly polytheistic culture.

 

[alang1216]

Where did it say Jesus came down to preach? It doesn't.

What did he preach? He didn't.

Why was his preaching embellished? It wasn't. In fact he asked that what he had done not be told to anyone.

"When Jesus came down from the mountain, great crowds followed him. And then a leper approached, did him homage, and said, “Lord, if you wish, you can make me clean.” He stretched out his hand, touched him, and said, “I will do it. Be made clean.” His leprosy was cleansed immediately. Then Jesus said to him, “See that you tell no one, but go show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses prescribed; that will be proof for them.”

You're grasping a straws. Jesus was an itinerant preacher, that is what he did. Jesus didn't come down from the mountain to open an iHop. Whatever Jesus said or did, the embellishment ended being in the #1 best seller of all time.

 

[alang1216]

You tell me. The flood? Killing all men, women and children? Lot?

All OT stuff? Go with Lot.

Your post #397 says otherwise. And you know it.

Disagree

 

[alang1216]

Except you can't explain what was and wasn't being embellished and why it was being embellished for any of them.

I have for everyone you offered up.

 

[ding]

You're grasping a straws. Jesus was an itinerant preacher, that is what he did. Jesus didn't come down from the mountain to open an iHop. Whatever Jesus said or did, the embellishment ended being in the #1 best seller of all time.

That would be you grasping at straws. Jesus coming down a mountain is not a historical event like a flood or a battle or a migration from the cradle of civilization. By your definition Jesus eating a meal was a historical event. And you adding to the account is pure fiction. No where did it say he came to preach. No where did it say what he preached.

 

[alang1216]

Do you agree there is an historical basis?

No. There was never a time when all men spoke one language.

Do you agree they used stories to pass down knowledge, wisdom and history?

Yes.

 

[ding]

I have for everyone you offered up.

No you haven't and you know it.

Let's take Matthew 12:21-28. What was the historical event? What was embellished and why was it embellished?

Then Jesus went from that place and withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. And behold, a Canaanite woman of that district came and called out, “Have pity on me, Lord, Son of David! My daughter is tormented by a demon.” But he did not say a word in answer to her. His disciples came and asked him, “Send her away, for she keeps calling out after us.” He said in reply, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” But the woman came and did him homage, saying, “Lord, help me.” He said in reply, “It is not right to take the food of the children* and throw it to the dogs.” She said, “Please, Lord, for even the dogs eat the scraps that fall from the table of their masters.” Then Jesus said to her in reply, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed from that hour.

 

[ding]

No. There was never a time when all men spoke one language.

We aren't really talking about all men. We are talking about a specific region, Mesopotamia. It seems you chose to answer the question I wasn't asking. Is there a historical basis for migrations? Would the people of that time realized that people migrated to and fro? Is that historical?

 

[ding]

Yes.

So then would it make sense that they used stories to pass down history, wisdom and knowledge?

 

[alang1216]

No you haven't and you know it.

Let's take Matthew 12:21-28. What was the historical event? What was embellished and why was it embellished?

Then Jesus went from that place and withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. And behold, a Canaanite woman of that district came and called out, “Have pity on me, Lord, Son of David! My daughter is tormented by a demon.” But he did not say a word in answer to her. His disciples came and asked him, “Send her away, for she keeps calling out after us.” He said in reply, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” But the woman came and did him homage, saying, “Lord, help me.” He said in reply, “It is not right to take the food of the children* and throw it to the dogs.” She said, “Please, Lord, for even the dogs eat the scraps that fall from the table of their masters.” Then Jesus said to her in reply, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed from that hour.

Event: Jesus preached in the region of Tyre and Sidon to non-Jews
Embellishment: He must be an agent of God since he could perform miracles.

 

[alang1216]

So then would it make sense that they used stories to pass down history, wisdom and knowledge?

and myths and entertainments too

 

[ding]

Event: Jesus preached in the region of Tyre and Sidon to non-Jews
Embellishment: He must be an agent of God since he could perform miracles.

That's not what it says. It does not say he preached in the region of Tyre and Sidon to non-Jews. It says he went there. Why are you adding stuff?

Where does it say Jesus must be an agent of God since he could perform miracles?

What does the account say?

 

[ding]

and myths and entertainments too

Not really. They used embellishment primary to teach and to make the accounts more memorable so that they could be easier to remember and pass down. Because that's how knowledge was passed down. Orally. Try googling it.

 

[ding]

I have for everyone you offered up.

How about Matthew 14:34-36? What was the historical event? What was embellished and why was it embellished?

After making the crossing, they came to land at Gennesaret. When the men of that place recognized him, they sent word to all the surrounding country. People brought to him all those who were sick and begged him that they might touch only the tassel on his cloak, and as many as touched it were healed.

 

[ding]

I have for everyone you offered up.

How about Matthew 8:16-17? What was the historical event? What was embellished and why was it embellished?

When it was evening, they brought him many who were possessed by demons, and he drove out the spirits by a word and cured all the sick, to fulfill what had been said by Isaiah the prophet; “He took away our infirmities and bore our diseases.”

 

[alang1216]

That's not what it says. It does not say he preached in the region of Tyre and Sidon to non-Jews. It says he went there. Why are you adding stuff?

Why was he there if not to preach?

Where does it say Jesus must be an agent of God since he could perform miracles?

Pagans were transactional.

What does the account say?

It says what the writers wanted to say and they were more concerned with theology than history.

 

[alang1216]

Not really. They used embellishment primary to teach and to make the accounts more memorable so that they could be easier to remember and pass down. Because that's how knowledge was passed down. Orally. Try googling it.

All the pagan myths were transmitted orally, doesn't mean they actually happened.

 

[alang1216]

How about Matthew 14:34-36? What was the historical event? What was embellished and why was it embellished?

After making the crossing, they came to land at Gennesaret. When the men of that place recognized him, they sent word to all the surrounding country. People brought to him all those who were sick and begged him that they might touch only the tassel on his cloak, and as many as touched it were healed.

This getting redundant.
Event: Jesus came to preach in Gennesaret.
Embellishment: He healed the sick to demonstrate the power of his god versus other gods.