Vandalshandle
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That would be best served with beer and sauerkraut.
Christ in the Book of Mormon
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That would be best served with beer and sauerkraut.
LOL! Yer a bratty bratwurst.
Because of how Avatar himself likes to disrespect other religions, particularly Islam, I could allow myself to be a hater too and just say that Moroni Bologna Macaroni was Joseph Smith's imaginary friend... if he actually believed what he was preaching. Otherwise it was just part of a tactic to get a bunch of people to follow him religiously.
BUT bein' the epic Pagan that I am...
Here is the Ashtara theory
Moroni could have been a Thoughtform, or Tulpa, that Joseph Smith created in his Mind which successfully acted as a vessel for the Forces above to help guide him into the formation of a new religion.
The Mormons believe Moroni was once human, then died, then was reincarnated as an Angel, and visited Earth to help Joseph Smith create Mormonism. If Moroni was "real", did Moroni physically manifest before Joseph Smith, or did he instead use a Tulpa as a vessel in Joseph Smith's mind to achieve the same purpose?
Let us also consider a similar theory...
Moroni (whether or not he once was human in a past Life) could have been an advanced extraterrestrial being (perhaps an "Angel" hailing from the Kolob system or some other place) who sought to guide a fraction of humanity along a certain path, and thus somehow manifested before Joseph Smith and began a chain of events that ultimately led to the creation of the Mormon religion.
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there4eyeM
unlicensed metaphysician
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We can never know what passes in the mind of another. We can never transfer thought or experience fully to another. All experience is perception. All perception is absolutely relative. All religious experience is perception. All religious experience is absolutely intimate and relative. All faith is relative and intimate. Anyone's faith is applicable only to that person. Expecting, and certainly demanding, that others share that perception is obviously insane.
there4eyeM
unlicensed metaphysician
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'God' can only be known through personal, intimate revelation.
All religion is blasphemy in that it defines the Indefinable, and thus defiles It.
All religion is blasphemy in that it defines the Indefinable, and thus defiles It.
Meriweather
Not all who wander are lost
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No, religion is not blasphemy, not when/if its primary purpose to draw people closer to God. Relying on personal information is limiting, ignoring the revelations/information already present.
The intent of scripture is to draw people closer to God. Some people study scripture with that intent. Others study it with the intent to place distance between themselves and God, or with the intent to use it to put distance between others and God.
Since we are speaking of the Book of Mormon: This Book does not draw me closer to God. I haven't a good opinion of Joseph Smith or his motives. But what is undeniable is that the Book of Mormon has drawn others closer to God--despite the clear faults of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon.
The Book of Mormon is an ancient record of the people who inhabited the American continent. It was written by prophets who lived among the people and gives testimony of the Lord Jesus Christ as he visited this land after his resurrection. It has prophecies of America and how it would be inhabited by the gentiles from Europe. It reveals the evil works of secret combinations and tells of the future of America. It is a second witness to the Bible of the Savior and Redeemer of the world, even Jesus Christ. Moroni, was the last of the prophets who placed the record of gold plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the sword of Laban and sealed them up in a stone box and buried the stone box in the earth before he died. Later he was resurrected and was commissioned by the Lord to reveal the hiding place of the record to Joseph Smith. After 3 years, Joseph Smith was allowed to remove the contents of the box and he began translating the book via the Urim and Thummim (also known as seer stones). Later this same angel returned and took the plates, Urim and Thummim, and the sword of Laban.
Three witnesses were given the privilege of viewing and handling the plates, seeing the angel Moroni, and hearing the voice of God declare the truthfulness of the work unto them. You can read their testimony at this link: Testimony of Three Witnesses
Later, eight more witnesses were given the privilege of seeing and handling the plates and have given their witness to the truthfulness of their existence: Testimony of Eight Witnesses
The Book of Mormon comes with a promise given by the prophet Moroni as follows:
Moroni 10:2-5
2 And I seal up these records, after I have spoken a few words by way of exhortation unto you.
3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
Three witnesses were given the privilege of viewing and handling the plates, seeing the angel Moroni, and hearing the voice of God declare the truthfulness of the work unto them. You can read their testimony at this link: Testimony of Three Witnesses
Later, eight more witnesses were given the privilege of seeing and handling the plates and have given their witness to the truthfulness of their existence: Testimony of Eight Witnesses
The Book of Mormon comes with a promise given by the prophet Moroni as follows:
Moroni 10:2-5
2 And I seal up these records, after I have spoken a few words by way of exhortation unto you.
3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
TheOldSchool
Diamond Member
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- #29
So how wealthy and how many wives did these 3 witnesses and Joseph Smith have when they died?
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Tithing. What does that have to do with the fact that you can get a Book of Mormon for free?
TheOldSchool
Diamond Member
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- #31
Sort of like how the government gives us roads and bridges for "free?"
Tithing. What does that have to do with the fact that you can get a Book of Mormon for free?
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1 And now, my beloved brethren, I have read these things that ye might know concerning the covenants of the Lord that he has covenanted with all the house of Israel—
2 That he has spoken unto the Jews, by the mouth of his holy prophets, even from the beginning down, from generation to generation, until the time comes that they shall be restored to the true church and fold of God; when they shall be gathered home to the lands of their inheritance, and shall be established in all their lands of promise.
3 Behold, my beloved brethren, I speak unto you these things that ye may rejoice, and lift up your heads forever, because of the blessings which the Lord God shall bestow upon your children.
4 For I know that ye have searched much, many of you, to know of things to come; wherefore I know that ye know that our flesh must waste away and die; nevertheless, in our bodies we shall see God.
5 Yea, I know that ye know that in the body he shall show himself unto those at Jerusalem, from whence we came; for it is expedient that it should be among them; for it behooveth the great Creator that he sufferethhimself to become subject unto man in the flesh, and diefor all men, that all men might become subject unto him.
6 For as death hath passed upon all men, to fulfil the merciful plan of the great Creator, there must needs be a power of resurrection, and the resurrection must needs come unto man by reason of the fall; and the fall came by reason of transgression; and because man became fallen they were cut off from the presence of the Lord.
7 Wherefore, it must needs be an infinite atonement—save it should be an infinite atonement this corruption could not put on incorruption. Wherefore, the firstjudgment which came upon man must needs haveremained to an endless duration. And if so, this flesh must have laid down to rot and to crumble to its mother earth, to rise no more.
8 O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.
9 And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformethhimself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness.
10 O how great the goodness of our God, who prepareth a way for our escape from the grasp of this awful monster; yea, that monster, death and hell, which I call the death of the body, and also the death of the spirit.
11 And because of the way of deliverance of our God, the Holy One of Israel, this death, of which I have spoken, which is the temporal, shall deliver up its dead; which death is the grave.
12 And this death of which I have spoken, which is the spiritual death, shall deliver up its dead; which spiritual death is hell; wherefore, death and hell must deliver up their dead, and hell must deliver up its captive spirits, and the grave must deliver up its captive bodies, and the bodies and the spirits of men will be restored one to the other; and it is by the power of the resurrection of the Holy One of Israel(2 Nephi 9:1-12)
This is from a sermon by Jacob who testified of the coming of Christ to redeem mankind. His brother Nephi used His testimony of Christ, His brother Jacobs testimony, and the words of Isaiah the prophet to prove to his descendants and all those who received these words that Christ lives and redemption can only be found through His atoning sacrifice. Nephi used three witnesses because the Lord has said by the mouth of two or three witnesses shall his word be established.
Nephi concluded the these testimonies with the following words.
"And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words andbelieve in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.
11 And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness.
12 And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that many of us, if not all, may be saved in his kingdom at that great and last day. (2 Nephi 33:10-12)
I can add my own witness to them. I know Jesus Christ is the savior of the world. He is my Savior and He is yours. Because of Him we are guaranteed immortality. We will rise from the dead. That's the glorious news of the gospel. That through Him death is conquered for us.
2 That he has spoken unto the Jews, by the mouth of his holy prophets, even from the beginning down, from generation to generation, until the time comes that they shall be restored to the true church and fold of God; when they shall be gathered home to the lands of their inheritance, and shall be established in all their lands of promise.
3 Behold, my beloved brethren, I speak unto you these things that ye may rejoice, and lift up your heads forever, because of the blessings which the Lord God shall bestow upon your children.
4 For I know that ye have searched much, many of you, to know of things to come; wherefore I know that ye know that our flesh must waste away and die; nevertheless, in our bodies we shall see God.
5 Yea, I know that ye know that in the body he shall show himself unto those at Jerusalem, from whence we came; for it is expedient that it should be among them; for it behooveth the great Creator that he sufferethhimself to become subject unto man in the flesh, and diefor all men, that all men might become subject unto him.
6 For as death hath passed upon all men, to fulfil the merciful plan of the great Creator, there must needs be a power of resurrection, and the resurrection must needs come unto man by reason of the fall; and the fall came by reason of transgression; and because man became fallen they were cut off from the presence of the Lord.
7 Wherefore, it must needs be an infinite atonement—save it should be an infinite atonement this corruption could not put on incorruption. Wherefore, the firstjudgment which came upon man must needs haveremained to an endless duration. And if so, this flesh must have laid down to rot and to crumble to its mother earth, to rise no more.
8 O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.
9 And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformethhimself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness.
10 O how great the goodness of our God, who prepareth a way for our escape from the grasp of this awful monster; yea, that monster, death and hell, which I call the death of the body, and also the death of the spirit.
11 And because of the way of deliverance of our God, the Holy One of Israel, this death, of which I have spoken, which is the temporal, shall deliver up its dead; which death is the grave.
12 And this death of which I have spoken, which is the spiritual death, shall deliver up its dead; which spiritual death is hell; wherefore, death and hell must deliver up their dead, and hell must deliver up its captive spirits, and the grave must deliver up its captive bodies, and the bodies and the spirits of men will be restored one to the other; and it is by the power of the resurrection of the Holy One of Israel(2 Nephi 9:1-12)
This is from a sermon by Jacob who testified of the coming of Christ to redeem mankind. His brother Nephi used His testimony of Christ, His brother Jacobs testimony, and the words of Isaiah the prophet to prove to his descendants and all those who received these words that Christ lives and redemption can only be found through His atoning sacrifice. Nephi used three witnesses because the Lord has said by the mouth of two or three witnesses shall his word be established.
Nephi concluded the these testimonies with the following words.
"And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words andbelieve in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.
11 And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness.
12 And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that many of us, if not all, may be saved in his kingdom at that great and last day. (2 Nephi 33:10-12)
I can add my own witness to them. I know Jesus Christ is the savior of the world. He is my Savior and He is yours. Because of Him we are guaranteed immortality. We will rise from the dead. That's the glorious news of the gospel. That through Him death is conquered for us.
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- #33
You shouldn't lie. I don't disrespect Islam in the slightest. I ask questions and make arguments. I get along with Muslims on this board better than a majority of people.
There are two false concepts that seem to be popular in the world today. The first is if you respect something you have to agree with everything it espouses. The second is that if you question something you disrespect or hate it.
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- #34
Sort of like how the government gives us roads and bridges for "free?"
Tithing. What does that have to do with the fact that you can get a Book of Mormon for free?
Not all all. The Book of Mormon is a free gift to you from church given from free will offerings.
I invite you to read it for yourself. Take one for your library. I'm sure you'll have fun with it. It's a fascinating book. A book, that for all intensive purposes shouldn't exist let alone become more credible over time and yet over 185 years and no one has been able to explain it away.
Course that's a subject for another thread. We are discussing Christ in the Book of Mormon.
What do you think of the theories I posted
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- #37
we don't dispute the existence of lizard people living in tunnels under salt lake city either. For the same reason.
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"And it came to pass that when Jesus had thus spoken, he cast his eyes round about again on the multitude, and beheld they were in tears, and did look steadfastly upon him as if they would ask him to tarry a little longer with them.
And he said unto them: Behold, my bowels are filled with compassion towards you.
Have ye any that are sick among you? Bring them hither. Have ye any that are lame, or blind, or halt, or maimed, or leprous, or that are withered, or that are deaf, or that are afflicted in any manner? Bring them hither and I will heal them, for I have compassion upon you; my bowels are filled with mercy.
For I perceive that ye desire that I should show unto you what I have done unto your brethren at Jerusalem, for I see that your faith is sufficient that I should heal you.
And it came to pass that when he had thus spoken, all the multitude, with one accord, did go forth with their sick and their afflicted, and their lame, and with theirblind, and with their dumb, and with all them that were afflicted in any manner; and he did heal them every one as they were brought forth unto him.
And they did all, both they who had been healed and they who were whole, bow down at his feet, and did worship him; and as many as could come for the multitude did kiss his feet, insomuch that they did bathe his feet with their tears." (3 Nephi 17:5-10)
Christ can heal us physically and spiritually. Seek Him and you will be made whole.
And he said unto them: Behold, my bowels are filled with compassion towards you.
Have ye any that are sick among you? Bring them hither. Have ye any that are lame, or blind, or halt, or maimed, or leprous, or that are withered, or that are deaf, or that are afflicted in any manner? Bring them hither and I will heal them, for I have compassion upon you; my bowels are filled with mercy.
For I perceive that ye desire that I should show unto you what I have done unto your brethren at Jerusalem, for I see that your faith is sufficient that I should heal you.
And it came to pass that when he had thus spoken, all the multitude, with one accord, did go forth with their sick and their afflicted, and their lame, and with theirblind, and with their dumb, and with all them that were afflicted in any manner; and he did heal them every one as they were brought forth unto him.
And they did all, both they who had been healed and they who were whole, bow down at his feet, and did worship him; and as many as could come for the multitude did kiss his feet, insomuch that they did bathe his feet with their tears." (3 Nephi 17:5-10)
Christ can heal us physically and spiritually. Seek Him and you will be made whole.
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