China accuses US of 'stirring up' South China Sea tensions

[JoeB131]

I saw this in various places in southern Africa. In Inhambane in Mozambique the only supermarket was Chinese. The locals would sit around with their sheet and their produce on top waiting for people to buy their stuff, but the supermarket was way more convenient.

Wow...it kind of sounds like what happens in the American Hood... except those stores are owned by Koreans.

Essentially since 2010 the GDP per capita has remained the same. Doesn't seem like China's influence is having much impact there.

Their inability to improve their own country is China's fault?

Yes, there were bad decisions made in Montenegro. But Montenegro went to the west first, and the west said "this isn't good for your country". China will do things that benefit China, and only China. China, had they bothered, would have seen it could never really benefit Montenegro.

Seems like it didn't really benefit China that much. Montenegro owes them a shitload of money that will probalby never be paid back.

This mostly seems like a European problem. The Balkans are the poorest part of Europe, but Europe never steps up to the plate to improve it.

Mao oversaw the biggest loss of life of any leader of China during his reign. There are only estimates of how many millions died, 30 million? 40 million? Certainly a lot.

Yes, he did. But political turmoil in China ALWAYS has a huge loss of life due to the population density. 22 million people died during the Second Sino-Japanese War (which eventually merged into World War II.) 20-30 million people died during the Taiping Rebellion (where some nutjob thought he was the Brother of Jesus and tried to establish his own kingdom). 25 million people died during the fall of the Ming Dynasty to the Qing Dynasty (At a time when the population of China was 200 million).

He also did nothing for the economy. His problem was he was a bit like Trump. He was more interested in himself than he was in improving the country. He latched onto the Communist movement, but wasn't Communist himself, just power hungry and he could never get power through the old system.

See, this is where you are being dishonest. Mao took a country that had been devasted by decades of foreign invasion and civil war and made it one of the worlds largest economies. Compared to Trump, who had lackluster GDP Growth before he crashed the economy with Covid.

Sure, there were mistakes, like the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution.

 

[JoeB131]

Firstly China had the coronavirus because of the system. The Wuhan politicians were too afraid to tell Xi. Xi's system, Xi's power, caused this.

This is kind of a touchy subject for me, because my wife's brother, who still resided in Chengdu, died of Covid in 2022. (He also had been sick for a very long time.)

But... um... it seems that we knew about Covid pretty early on. The first reports of it were in November 2019. The rest of the world failed to take it seriously (especially Trump).

Then China forced countries to remain open, like Pakistan and possibly Indonesia. They threatened them, if they closed their borders to China, they'd suffer economically.

Pakistan only had 34,000 Covid Deaths. Indonesia only had 161,000, and most of those in the later phase of the pandemic.

They kept the lockdown way too long, a lockdown they couldn't possibly hope to have as effective, which is one reason they opened up so suddenly. It was causing political problems and it wasn't dealing with the coronavirus well any more.

And since they opened up, it's not been much of a problem at all. The politicians were afraid, and they had good reasons to be afraid, because of how things happened at the beginning and the whole origins issues.

Did anyone handle the Lockdown and initial response well?

Spoken like a bigmouth who has never seen what "autonomy" really is permitted by the communist occupiers there.

For your average Tibetan, life under the Communists is probably better than life under the Lamas.

 

[Unkotare]

...



For your average Tibetan, life under the Communists is probably better than life under the Lamas.

Not according to your average Tibetan, you communist apologist.

 

[Blaster]

Fuck China.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Wow...it kind of sounds like what happens in the American Hood... except those stores are owned by Koreans.



Their inability to improve their own country is China's fault?



Seems like it didn't really benefit China that much. Montenegro owes them a shitload of money that will probalby never be paid back.

This mostly seems like a European problem. The Balkans are the poorest part of Europe, but Europe never steps up to the plate to improve it.



Yes, he did. But political turmoil in China ALWAYS has a huge loss of life due to the population density. 22 million people died during the Second Sino-Japanese War (which eventually merged into World War II.) 20-30 million people died during the Taiping Rebellion (where some nutjob thought he was the Brother of Jesus and tried to establish his own kingdom). 25 million people died during the fall of the Ming Dynasty to the Qing Dynasty (At a time when the population of China was 200 million).



See, this is where you are being dishonest. Mao took a country that had been devasted by decades of foreign invasion and civil war and made it one of the worlds largest economies. Compared to Trump, who had lackluster GDP Growth before he crashed the economy with Covid.

Sure, there were mistakes, like the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution.

First it's China's helping them, providing all kinds of things, then it's just their own fault they're not improving.

Which is it? Is it China doing good around the world or is it China gaining and its allies and friends not????



China benefited from Montenegro. Yes, Montenegro owes them lots of money, but Chinese workers and Chinese companies worked on this, they made money. The loans that China gave Montenegro will be paying interest for decades and maybe even centuries, unless Montenegro defaults or does a deal with China.

But what China really wants, in Lesotho, in Montenegro, is political influence. The chance to go to the UN and say "Hey, we don't want this, we want that" and all these small countries, easy to be bought countries will follow what China wants...

Mao didn't turn China into anything.

GDP in 1960 was $90 per person. When he died it was $165 per person.

Inflation Calculator | Find US Dollar's Value From 1913-2024

Easily calculate how the buying power of the U.S. dollar has changed from 1913 to 2024. Get inflation rates and U.S. inflation news.

www.usinflationcalculator.com

Great, it went up... except US dollar inflation from 1960 means $90 was $173 by 1976... yeah, in 16 years, the economy did NOT increase.

By 1992, another 16 years later, the GDP was at $366 per person. Even then this was well below inflation for a rise with $426 per person being $90 in 1960.

By 2001 though, it had doubled, why? Because Mao was DEAD and had been DEAD long enough that his idiotic policies weren't impacting the country any more.

"Sure, there were mistakes," That's a massive understatement. Just about EVERYTHING Mao did was a mistake.

 

[frigidweirdo]

This is kind of a touchy subject for me, because my wife's brother, who still resided in Chengdu, died of Covid in 2022. (He also had been sick for a very long time.)

But... um... it seems that we knew about Covid pretty early on. The first reports of it were in November 2019. The rest of the world failed to take it seriously (especially Trump).



Pakistan only had 34,000 Covid Deaths. Indonesia only had 161,000, and most of those in the later phase of the pandemic.



Did anyone handle the Lockdown and initial response well?



For your average Tibetan, life under the Communists is probably better than life under the Lamas.

There were reports about the coronavirus early, but people didn't know if it'd spread from humans to humans. Either way the initial problem was that China was trying to do what China always does and that's having everyone trying to protect their careers. Imagine that the mayor of Wuhan got fired... why? It wasn't his fault.

Poorer countries had "low" death RATES for the coronavirus simply because they didn't report them.

Perhaps life for Tibetans is better than it was in the past. I think life for most people in 2023 is better than it was in 1923. Doesn't much matter who's in charge.

 

[JoeB131]

First it's China's helping them, providing all kinds of things, then it's just their own fault they're not improving.

Which is it? Is it China doing good around the world or is it China gaining and its allies and friends not????

China benefited from Montenegro. Yes, Montenegro owes them lots of money, but Chinese workers and Chinese companies worked on this, they made money. The loans that China gave Montenegro will be paying interest for decades and maybe even centuries, unless Montenegro defaults or does a deal with China.

But what China really wants, in Lesotho, in Montenegro, is political influence. The chance to go to the UN and say "Hey, we don't want this, we want that" and all these small countries, easy to be bought countries will follow what China wants...

Your rant aside, how is what China is doing any different than what we've been doing since the end of World War II? They are going into the areas that we've neglected because we don't care about them.

Just can't get worked up about this.

Mao didn't turn China into anything.

Except a unified country whose power was so respected, Nixon - the great anti-Communist - went there to make deals. Remember the old Vulcan expression, "only Nixon could go to China." (Star Trek VI callback!)

There were reports about the coronavirus early, but people didn't know if it'd spread from humans to humans. Either way the initial problem was that China was trying to do what China always does and that's having everyone trying to protect their careers. Imagine that the mayor of Wuhan got fired... why? It wasn't his fault.

China coronavirus: mayor of Wuhan admits mistakes

Zhou Xianwang says public information should have been released more quickly

www.theguardian.com

Except he took the blame at the time.

Zhou Xianwang wore a mask for protection as he told the Chinese state broadcaster CCTV: “We haven’t disclosed information in a timely manner and also did not use effective information to improve our work.”

He said he would resign if it helped with public opinion but pointed out the local government was obliged to seek permission before fully disclosing information about the virus, and that their response had since become “tougher than others”.

Oh, and he wasn't "fired", he served until January 2021 and then moved up to the provincial planning committee.

Zhou Xianwang - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Perhaps life for Tibetans is better than it was in the past. I think life for most people in 2023 is better than it was in 1923. Doesn't much matter who's in charge.

Well, okay, so let's look at that. China and Tibet were in a real mess in 1923, the country was undergoing what was called the "Warlord Period". So,um, yeah, thing got better in that the country was unified, and built into a stronger nation.

Not according to your average Tibetan, you communist apologist.

I know, man, they can't get dripping poop porn over there.... I'm sure that gives you the sads.

(Just for fun, everyone needs to Google "Unkotare". Please do not click on the image search. )

 

[Unkotare]

...



I know, man, ...

Have you ever spoken to even ONE actual Tibetan there or here, big mouth bigot? You're all talk.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Your rant aside, how is what China is doing any different than what we've been doing since the end of World War II? They are going into the areas that we've neglected because we don't care about them.

Just can't get worked up about this.



Except a unified country whose power was so respected, Nixon - the great anti-Communist - went there to make deals. Remember the old Vulcan expression, "only Nixon could go to China." (Star Trek VI callback!)

China coronavirus: mayor of Wuhan admits mistakes

Zhou Xianwang says public information should have been released more quickly

www.theguardian.com

Except he took the blame at the time.

Zhou Xianwang wore a mask for protection as he told the Chinese state broadcaster CCTV: “We haven’t disclosed information in a timely manner and also did not use effective information to improve our work.”

He said he would resign if it helped with public opinion but pointed out the local government was obliged to seek permission before fully disclosing information about the virus, and that their response had since become “tougher than others”.

Oh, and he wasn't "fired", he served until January 2021 and then moved up to the provincial planning committee.

Zhou Xianwang - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Well, okay, so let's look at that. China and Tibet were in a real mess in 1923, the country was undergoing what was called the "Warlord Period". So,um, yeah, thing got better in that the country was unified, and built into a stronger nation.



I know, man, they can't get dripping poop porn over there.... I'm sure that gives you the sads.

(Just for fun, everyone needs to Google "Unkotare". Please do not click on the image search. )

No rant. I'm saying what I think, what I've learned etc. It's not a rant, if you have a problem with it, you can argue back. It doesn't need you trying to attack me for some supposed "rant"

I didn't say China was doing anything different. They're getting friends just like the US, the USSR etc have been doing for a long time. I'm not getting worked up about it, I'm point out and providing evidence that this is what they're doing.

But they're doing things in their own way. Somethings might be similar in the larger picture to the US, and lower down they will be different. It wants influence around the world, but doesn't invade and put up sanctions. Instead it threatens countries with a trade embargo with China if it chooses to trade with Taiwan.

Yes, Mao almost unified the country, the mainland at least. Power that is respected... the thing is the world changed a hell of a lot during Mao's time in power. The US got to the Moon, for example. China was always going to change, weaponry changed, technology changed, without needing China to make it change. China utilized this to change... but still remained poor.

Yes, China got rid of war lords, that's not really much for nearly 30 years in power, is it?

"Except he took the blame at the time."

Sure "You, take the blame or we'll execute you and we'll take all your family's assets. If you take the blame you can live a decent life with your family afterwards"

Yeah... do you think he had much choice in taking the blame?

Did he get fired or not? Hard to tell in China. Certainly his new job is a pointless, powerless job, it certainly seems like a step down from running one of the biggest cities in the country.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

I think we need to stop intentionally provoking China over issues of her national sovereignty. They tend to get a little touchy about that.

This is the biggest mistake we make in dealing with China. China underwent what they call "The Century of Humiliation", which started when the British launched the First Opium War and ended with the establishment of the People's Republic. We see Hong Kong, Tibet, Taiwan, the Uighurs, and the South China Sea in terms of "freedom," "Democracy," and "international law"; they see it as their territorial sovereignty being violated.





I'm not.

First, the US pulls the same shit with all these little Islands in the Pacific we claim.

View attachment 867756

Secondly, we have a bad habit of still thinking of the Philippines as a "colony", which they are not.

Third, China has the resources to exploit the mineral and fishing rights of the region. The Philippines and Vietnam do not.

^ Official CCP Spokesperson chimes in

 

[JoeB131]

Have you ever spoken to even ONE actual Tibetan there or here, big mouth bigot? You're all talk.

No, and neither did you, dripping poop.

I didn't say China was doing anything different. They're getting friends just like the US, the USSR etc have been doing for a long time. I'm not getting worked up about it, I'm point out and providing evidence that this is what they're doing.

But they're doing things in their own way. Somethings might be similar in the larger picture to the US, and lower down they will be different. It wants influence around the world, but doesn't invade and put up sanctions. Instead it threatens countries with a trade embargo with China if it chooses to trade with Taiwan.

You mean they are doing exactly what the US would do if Florida had declared itself an independent country. Hey, what did the US do when the inbreds of the Confederacy try to secede? They hit up Britain and France and the rest of the world not to trade with them. And they succeeded, to. The loss of international trade doomed the Confederacy to defeat.

"Waaahhh, China is acting like we would in the same situation, but are showing a LOT more restraint!"

Yes, Mao almost unified the country, the mainland at least. Power that is respected... the thing is the world changed a hell of a lot during Mao's time in power. The US got to the Moon, for example. China was always going to change, weaponry changed, technology changed, without needing China to make it change. China utilized this to change... but still remained poor.

Yes, China got rid of war lords, that's not really much for nearly 30 years in power, is it?

Actually, it was quite a lot. Let's look at China in the 30 years before the Communists took power. They had warlords. They were invaded by Japan. Tibet, Inner Mongolia, Manchuria and Xinjiang were defacto independent or under foreign influence. The country had famines on a regular basis. During those first 30 years, the rest of the world tried their best to isolate China. (We have this funny habit of screwing countries when they pick forms of government we don't like) but yet Mao brought her into the first class of world powers, to the point where even the US had to acknowledge her.

Now, not to say Mao wasn't an absolutely ruthless bastard, because he was. He had to be. You weren't going to fix China by playing nice.

"Except he took the blame at the time."

Sure "You, take the blame or we'll execute you and we'll take all your family's assets. If you take the blame you can live a decent life with your family afterwards"

Yeah... do you think he had much choice in taking the blame?

Actually, Zhou Xianwang (I actually bothered to look him up) took the blame because he deserved a lot of the blame. For instance, he hosted a banquet for Chinese New Year that 40,000 families attended, just as the virus was starting to spread.

You see, as much as you try to claim China is this dystopian place, there's actually quite a lot of media activity, and there was a lot of PUBLIC criticism of Zhou's leadership, which is why he felt obligated to apologize.

Did he get fired or not? Hard to tell in China. Certainly his new job is a pointless, powerless job, it certainly seems like a step down from running one of the biggest cities in the country.

Sounds more like he got "kicked upstairs". I just can't get worked up about it.

Look, man if you want to believe there's a Chinese hiding under your bed, knock yourself out.

 

[Unkotare]

No, and neither did you,...

Oh yes I have. Many, many times.

 

[frigidweirdo]

No, and neither did you, dripping poop.



You mean they are doing exactly what the US would do if Florida had declared itself an independent country. Hey, what did the US do when the inbreds of the Confederacy try to secede? They hit up Britain and France and the rest of the world not to trade with them. And they succeeded, to. The loss of international trade doomed the Confederacy to defeat.

"Waaahhh, China is acting like we would in the same situation, but are showing a LOT more restraint!"



Actually, it was quite a lot. Let's look at China in the 30 years before the Communists took power. They had warlords. They were invaded by Japan. Tibet, Inner Mongolia, Manchuria and Xinjiang were defacto independent or under foreign influence. The country had famines on a regular basis. During those first 30 years, the rest of the world tried their best to isolate China. (We have this funny habit of screwing countries when they pick forms of government we don't like) but yet Mao brought her into the first class of world powers, to the point where even the US had to acknowledge her.

Now, not to say Mao wasn't an absolutely ruthless bastard, because he was. He had to be. You weren't going to fix China by playing nice.



Actually, Zhou Xianwang (I actually bothered to look him up) took the blame because he deserved a lot of the blame. For instance, he hosted a banquet for Chinese New Year that 40,000 families attended, just as the virus was starting to spread.

You see, as much as you try to claim China is this dystopian place, there's actually quite a lot of media activity, and there was a lot of PUBLIC criticism of Zhou's leadership, which is why he felt obligated to apologize.


Sounds more like he got "kicked upstairs". I just can't get worked up about it.

Look, man if you want to believe there's a Chinese hiding under your bed, knock yourself out.

The reality with the coronavirus in Wuhan is that things happened because of national politics, rather than local politics.

How do you get promoted in the CCP? You have to play the game. You have to present statistics to those higher up than you, and you have to make those statistics look good. Regardless of whether they are or not.

There was a situation a few years back where they took all the economic data from all the provinces and then produced a national economic statistic that was different to what all the provincial statistics said. Why? Because they knew the provinces were boosting their own stats and they compensated for that.

Like I said before, China forced countries to remain open to China at the beginning of the coronavirus period. IMAGINE IS EVERYTHING, and China wanted to present the imagine that everything was normal, carry on as before. The same with this banquet. Cancelling it would have sent the "wrong signal". Certainly that banquet happening or not, wouldn't have changed anything.

The Mayor would have been playing the game that was there to be played. A game where people lose their jobs simply because they made the "wrong decision", which they'd never have been able to judge whether it was wrong or not until afterwards, and it'd all depend on how someone with hindsight would judge it.

Yeah, there's a lot of "media activity" and it's all controlled. Xi's control of it, and the fact that Xi can't be criticized no matter what happens, means if it's Xi's fault, someone else will take the flak for it.

A lot of public criticism? Well, the people are easy to manipulate. You say "oh, he held a banquet for 40,000 people" and all the manipulated people will see this and say "oh, that's bad, it MUST be his fault". Yet they don't see the bigger picture, they don't see the politics that was going, they don't see the things Zhou couldn't do, they don't see the political game he had to play for his career. They see what they're told to see.

A year ago there was the blank paper movement. It didn't happen. It's been wiped from Chinese history. At least in China. Hardly anyone remembers the day China opened up. Had this been in a country with proper media, it'd have been commemorated.

But for the CCP it was real public criticism and they'd attacked it to make sure nobody remembers that the CCP was forced into a situation by the people. Why? Because the CCP is ALWAYS RIGHT, no matter how wrong they are.

Yes, you can get kicked upstairs, upstairs to a pointless job that does nothing.

I don't understand your comment about there being a Chinese person under my bed.

China is what it is. I'm not here to create a bogeyman, I'm not here to create a narrative. I'm here to A) explain what I see and B) talk about it because I might understand things more.

I certainly don't understand everything, I don't study this stuff. I see things and I try and put them together, it's complicated and a lot of CCP stuff is secret. But I talk to people, try and understand how the Chinese mentality works etc. It's very, very complex.

 

[JoeB131]

Like I said before, China forced countries to remain open to China at the beginning of the coronavirus period. IMAGINE IS EVERYTHING, and China wanted to present the imagine that everything was normal, carry on as before. The same with this banquet. Cancelling it would have sent the "wrong signal". Certainly that banquet happening or not, wouldn't have changed anything.

Okay, and how was this any different than Trump saying, "Covid will be over by Easter," "It's the New Hoax," and encouraging his mass-spreader rallies? China did stupid shit at the beginning of this. We did stupid shit all throughout the pandemic. We made mask-wearing and vaccines cultural issues. You still have idiots on this board claiming that Covid was an overblown flu used to destroy the one True Messiah, Donald Trump.

Yeah, there's a lot of "media activity" and it's all controlled. Xi's control of it, and the fact that Xi can't be criticized no matter what happens, means if it's Xi's fault, someone else will take the flak for it.

A lot of public criticism? Well, the people are easy to manipulate. You say "oh, he held a banquet for 40,000 people" and all the manipulated people will see this and say "oh, that's bad, it MUST be his fault". Yet they don't see the bigger picture, they don't see the politics that was going, they don't see the things Zhou couldn't do, they don't see the political game he had to play for his career. They see what they're told to see.

Or maybe Zhou just messed up.

Honestly, I wish we had Xi running our covid response in this country rather than Trump.

I don't understand your comment about there being a Chinese person under my bed.

You don't? You seem to think China is this scary country that is out to get you. Oh, my gosh, they are building three aircraft carriers that are half the size of the 11 we already have! Eek, they are claiming small islands in the South China Sea! Oh, noes, they have a legitimate claim to Taiwan as part of their territory (that they haven't acted on in 70 years).

China is what it is. I'm not here to create a bogeyman, I'm not here to create a narrative. I'm here to A) explain what I see and B) talk about it because I might understand things more.

I certainly don't understand everything, I don't study this stuff. I see things and I try and put them together, it's complicated and a lot of CCP stuff is secret. But I talk to people, try and understand how the Chinese mentality works etc. It's very, very complex.

But are you understanding everything. Three years ago, I thought I understood China pretty well and was sympathetic to it. Then I married a Chinese woman and realized I had no clue, really. The Chinese are a lot more like us than you want to think they are.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Okay, and how was this any different than Trump saying, "Covid will be over by Easter," "It's the New Hoax," and encouraging his mass-spreader rallies? China did stupid shit at the beginning of this. We did stupid shit all throughout the pandemic. We made mask-wearing and vaccines cultural issues. You still have idiots on this board claiming that Covid was an overblown flu used to destroy the one True Messiah, Donald Trump.



Or maybe Zhou just messed up.

Honestly, I wish we had Xi running our covid response in this country rather than Trump.



You don't? You seem to think China is this scary country that is out to get you. Oh, my gosh, they are building three aircraft carriers that are half the size of the 11 we already have! Eek, they are claiming small islands in the South China Sea! Oh, noes, they have a legitimate claim to Taiwan as part of their territory (that they haven't acted on in 70 years).



But are you understanding everything. Three years ago, I thought I understood China pretty well and was sympathetic to it. Then I married a Chinese woman and realized I had no clue, really. The Chinese are a lot more like us than you want to think they are.

Can you imagine China, with professional politicians who don't need to get elected, getting down to the level of Trump?

A lot of people used covid as a reason to do idiotic things, and the FPTP system was creaking badly in the US, in the UK too with dumb ass leaders more intent on image than anything else.

China is obsessed with image over everything in general. However the issue is about the mayor of Wuhan and he was made a scapegoat, because of the Chinese political system and because people at the top made sure they were not seen in a bad light.

You can say Zhou messed up, but for me that would be a simplistic answer to a very complex political system that you need to understand in order to understand what happened at this time.

As I've said the politicians are protecting their careers, vague policies from the top, a culture of fear that goes right down the system. Image being everything, making sure your bosses see the good and don't see the bad. In democracies people would be attacking those bad things, politicians would be trying to manipulate people, in China it just gets hidden by threatening anyone who might find out.

Saying Xi is better than Trump isn't really a revelation. However I'd have preferred Merkel, or some leader from some country with PR as the electoral system.

"You don't? You seem to think China is this scary country that is out to get you. "

Depends what you mean. The US is a scary country, Russia is a scary country in terms of their politicians. I've been to scarier countries, but they're scary because they're HUGE. They have so much power simply from having the money, the resources, to literally do whatever they like.

The US decided back in 2001, when Bush got elected, that OPEC was a problem. They invaded two, deposed the leaders, had a coup against another, and heavy sanctions against this country and another. And China is looking at this and seeing how it can manipulate and do things.

How they reacted in Hong Kong shows what they'll do. The exact nature of what they did is unknown, but it's pretty obvious that Beijing was manipulating the situation to get whatever it wanted. Just as politicians that reach the top will manipulate situations to get whatever they want.

No, I don't understand everything, my Chinese isn't good enough to understand everything.

I'd say the Chinese aren't like people in the west at all. They have a completely different mindset. There are so many small things that are different, and it takes a lot of time to figure such things out and then understand why they are like they are. Clearly Japan, Korea, China and south east Asia are different, they have lower crime, they have a harder working mindset and value education a lot more than other countries.

This manifests itself in many different ways, from the worst myopia in the world, to the banning of after school education (in both South Korea and China). But they manifest themselves in many ways because the politicians will act on these small mindsets.

 

[JoeB131]

Can you imagine China, with professional politicians who don't need to get elected, getting down to the level of Trump?

No, actually, I can't. The sad thing about Trump is that he's what results when people don't take their responsibilities as voters seriously. He's a reality TV rodeo clown who had no business in the Presidency. Yet there's a pretty good chance he might end up there again. God Help Us all.

China, on the other hand, is a technocracy run by a committee. Not saying this is a good thing, because it isn't. But it's certainly more efficient.

A lot of people used covid as a reason to do idiotic things, and the FPTP system was creaking badly in the US, in the UK too with dumb ass leaders more intent on image than anything else.

Countries where the leadership took the problem seriously contained it (like Japan and Germany). Countries will assclowns in charge, like Trump and Boris Johnson, had it much worse.

China is obsessed with image over everything in general. However the issue is about the mayor of Wuhan and he was made a scapegoat, because of the Chinese political system and because people at the top made sure they were not seen in a bad light.

You can say Zhou messed up, but for me that would be a simplistic answer to a very complex political system that you need to understand in order to understand what happened at this time.

Actually, it's not complicated at all. He messed up. He didn't realize how serious the situation was and tried to carry on with business as usual.

As I've said the politicians are protecting their careers, vague policies from the top, a culture of fear that goes right down the system. Image being everything, making sure your bosses see the good and don't see the bad. In democracies people would be attacking those bad things, politicians would be trying to manipulate people, in China it just gets hidden by threatening anyone who might find out.

Saying Xi is better than Trump isn't really a revelation. However I'd have preferred Merkel, or some leader from some country with PR as the electoral system.

Um, we have half the country that STILL won't hold Trump accountable for Covid. Again, glass houses, buddy.

The US decided back in 2001, when Bush got elected, that OPEC was a problem. They invaded two, deposed the leaders, had a coup against another, and heavy sanctions against this country and another. And China is looking at this and seeing how it can manipulate and do things.

Wow.... you think the War on Terror was about "OPEC"? Really?

I'd say the Chinese aren't like people in the west at all. They have a completely different mindset. There are so many small things that are different, and it takes a lot of time to figure such things out and then understand why they are like they are. Clearly Japan, Korea, China and south east Asia are different, they have lower crime, they have a harder working mindset and value education a lot more than other countries.

This manifests itself in many different ways, from the worst myopia in the world, to the banning of after school education (in both South Korea and China). But they manifest themselves in many ways because the politicians will act on these small mindsets.

Why not just say, "Them slanty-eyes are different!" It'd be more honest.

 

[Unkotare]

...

I'd say the Chinese aren't like people in the west at all. ...

Nonsense.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Why not just say, "Them slanty-eyes are different!" It'd be more honest.

Well, that's the end of this conversation.

 

[Unkotare]

Tibet is anything but "autonomous" under PRC control. People don't self-immolate for no reason.

 

[Mac-7]

The sad thing about Trump is that he's what results when people don't take their responsibilities as voters seriously.

Thank God that Trump came along when he did

In 2016 there were far more apologists in the west posting glowing reports about china than we see now

JoeB131 is practically a museum piece today compared to the pro china drum beaters just 10 years ago

Before trump you could easily sell the claim that china is a benign victim of western colonialism and just making up lost ground from the Opium Wars

But now western companies are moving production from china to vietnam and india where labor is cheaper and the government is not our sworn enemy