Child Support is unfair

[Aristotle]

So you can't relate one example of support given to women but not men. Noted.

You could relive it to the point that you could make a specious claim about it, I note. You just find it too traumatizing to relate SPECIFIC examples of support provided to moms but not dads.

i gave you WIC. there were also a number of non-profits, not federal programs, for housing assistance and the like that catered exclousively to women.

i stopped playing.

and yes, it was pretty traumatic if you must know. i had physicaal custody of my child since he was three. his mother left him with me. her boyfriend was a millionaire. i was paying child support, child care, his care, working, etc. i said this has got to stop so i decided to seek custody legally. the judge says "a child belongs with his mother" (she had broken up with her boyfriend at this time.) three years later, he was so messed up in his life, her grandparents were hiding him from me,, she was back with her boyfriend and who knows where. finally i found out what was going on...and i was given legal custody.

and yeah, a whole lot of other bad stuff too so it was pretty traumatic and i really don't even like to talk about it...and i stopped playing the game and accepted thaat i would have to do it myself.

the law says women should et equal pay. they don't.

the law says no discrimination because of race. it still goes on.

you can say single parents, the law can, but de facto discrimination against fathers still occurs, even today, and i was, at the time, in a state that a father seeking custody of their child would only get it about one percent of the time.

the saddest part. he joined the navy and the postcard home was now a big letter. it contained his insurance and benificiary information and on the box that said "mother" it said "no mother named." i never wanted him to say that.

gender bias doesn't only happen to women.

I am sorry this happened to you bro. I commend you for doing your best. Any advice you would give me as a young man with no kids?

 

[koshergrl]

And I proved you incorrect about WIC. Wic is certainly available to single fathers. They cannot access it for THEMSELVES because they don't get pregnant or breast feed, and WIC is in a nutritional program meant to supplement the diets of pregnant/breastfeeding women and children. That's not support being denied to fathers because fathers don't get pregnant or breastfeed.

But they can certainly get all the benefits for the children.

As far as you, Aristotle, I (and others) have shown you to be short on knowledge and long on prejudice and urban legend when it comes to this topic. You continue to bloviate about how women who have primary custody should be penalized for that, and all the reasons why men shouldn't have to shoulder a reasonable portion of financial responsibility for their offspring. You can claim victory, but you haven't proven anything at all, except that you're interested in nothing so much as penalizing women and excusing deadbeats.

 

[koshergrl]

So you can't relate one example of support given to women but not men. Noted.

You could relive it to the point that you could make a specious claim about it, I note. You just find it too traumatizing to relate SPECIFIC examples of support provided to moms but not dads.

i gave you WIC. there were also a number of non-profits, not federal programs, for housing assistance and the like that catered exclousively to women.

i stopped playing.

and yes, it was pretty traumatic if you must know. i had physicaal custody of my child since he was three. his mother left him with me. her boyfriend was a millionaire. i was paying child support, child care, his care, working, etc. i said this has got to stop so i decided to seek custody legally. the judge says "a child belongs with his mother" (she had broken up with her boyfriend at this time.) three years later, he was so messed up in his life, her grandparents were hiding him from me,, she was back with her boyfriend and who knows where. finally i found out what was going on...and i was given legal custody.

and yeah, a whole lot of other bad stuff too so it was pretty traumatic and i really don't even like to talk about it...and i stopped playing the game and accepted thaat i would have to do it myself.

the law says women should et equal pay. they don't.

the law says no discrimination because of race. it still goes on.

you can say single parents, the law can, but de facto discrimination against fathers still occurs, even today, and i was, at the time, in a state that a father seeking custody of their child would only get it about one percent of the time.

the saddest part. he joined the navy and the postcard home was now a big letter. it contained his insurance and benificiary information and on the box that said "mother" it said "no mother named." i never wanted him to say that.

gender bias doesn't only happen to women.

I am sorry this happened to you bro. I commend you for doing your best. Any advice you would give me as a young man with no kids?

Ask him why her family wanted to hide the child from him, and why the child doesn't know who his mom is?

If he has custody, then it's all him.

 

[Vast LWC]

The only unfair thing about child support the one who is paying it can't use it as a tax deduction I pay a thousand a month for one child and can't use it as a deduction

Now that is a good point.

If your paying child support, then that child is surely a dependent, by any definition of the word.

In addition, if you are forced to pay alimony, then your ex-wife should certainly count as a dependent for tax purposes as well.

 

[koshergrl]

No, the child is not a dependent, unless you are actually paying 1/2 of all costs associated with the kid and the kid lives in your household. This eliminates the eligibility of the majority of non-custodial parents since they are, by definition, non-custodial so the child doesn't reside in their household.

 

[Borillar]

So you can't relate one example of support given to women but not men. Noted.

You could relive it to the point that you could make a specious claim about it, I note. You just find it too traumatizing to relate SPECIFIC examples of support provided to moms but not dads.

i gave you WIC. there were also a number of non-profits, not federal programs, for housing assistance and the like that catered exclousively to women.

i stopped playing.

and yes, it was pretty traumatic if you must know. i had physicaal custody of my child since he was three. his mother left him with me. her boyfriend was a millionaire. i was paying child support, child care, his care, working, etc. i said this has got to stop so i decided to seek custody legally. the judge says "a child belongs with his mother" (she had broken up with her boyfriend at this time.) three years later, he was so messed up in his life, her grandparents were hiding him from me,, she was back with her boyfriend and who knows where. finally i found out what was going on...and i was given legal custody.

and yeah, a whole lot of other bad stuff too so it was pretty traumatic and i really don't even like to talk about it...and i stopped playing the game and accepted thaat i would have to do it myself.

the law says women should et equal pay. they don't.

the law says no discrimination because of race. it still goes on.

you can say single parents, the law can, but de facto discrimination against fathers still occurs, even today, and i was, at the time, in a state that a father seeking custody of their child would only get it about one percent of the time.

the saddest part. he joined the navy and the postcard home was now a big letter. it contained his insurance and benificiary information and on the box that said "mother" it said "no mother named." i never wanted him to say that.

gender bias doesn't only happen to women.

I am sorry this happened to you bro. I commend you for doing your best. Any advice you would give me as a young man with no kids?

1.) About half of all marriages end in divorce. Be very careful in picking a mate.
2.) Decide whether or not you want to have kids. If not, get a vasectomy. If yes, then always use birth control unless you are prepared to have that child.
3.) Don't believe anyone telling you they are on the pill, or need fertility, etc. Always use protection. The 20 minutes of pleasure isn't worth the 20 years of pain if it results in an unplanned or unwanted pregnancy.
4.) If you do father a child, then man up and take responsibility and support your kid. Don't expect anyone else to do it for you.

 

[Aristotle]

i gave you WIC. there were also a number of non-profits, not federal programs, for housing assistance and the like that catered exclousively to women.

i stopped playing.

and yes, it was pretty traumatic if you must know. i had physicaal custody of my child since he was three. his mother left him with me. her boyfriend was a millionaire. i was paying child support, child care, his care, working, etc. i said this has got to stop so i decided to seek custody legally. the judge says "a child belongs with his mother" (she had broken up with her boyfriend at this time.) three years later, he was so messed up in his life, her grandparents were hiding him from me,, she was back with her boyfriend and who knows where. finally i found out what was going on...and i was given legal custody.

and yeah, a whole lot of other bad stuff too so it was pretty traumatic and i really don't even like to talk about it...and i stopped playing the game and accepted thaat i would have to do it myself.

the law says women should et equal pay. they don't.

the law says no discrimination because of race. it still goes on.

you can say single parents, the law can, but de facto discrimination against fathers still occurs, even today, and i was, at the time, in a state that a father seeking custody of their child would only get it about one percent of the time.

the saddest part. he joined the navy and the postcard home was now a big letter. it contained his insurance and benificiary information and on the box that said "mother" it said "no mother named." i never wanted him to say that.

gender bias doesn't only happen to women.

I am sorry this happened to you bro. I commend you for doing your best. Any advice you would give me as a young man with no kids?

1.) About half of all marriages end in divorce. Be very careful in picking a mate.
2.) Decide whether or not you want to have kids. If not, get a vasectomy. If yes, then always use birth control unless you are prepared to have that child.
3.) Don't believe anyone telling you they are on the pill, or need fertility, etc. Always use protection. The 20 minutes of pleasure isn't worth the 20 years of pain if it results in an unplanned or unwanted pregnancy.
4.) If you do father a child, then man up and take responsibility and support your kid. Don't expect anyone else to do it for you.

Good advice.

 

[Care4all]

the cost of taking care of YOUR CHILD 24/7 is more than a dollar figure....the man can easily run off with any woman and marry again...the man can have a full time career and add to his retirement for old age, the mother is limited to such full time good paying careers, as the single parent caring for your child, again 24/7....she has much less opportunity to remarry and to add to her own retirement and to succeed in life with a good career, mainly because she is the 24/7 parent for your child, while you are free as a bird....

there is more to this than buying your kid a hot dog for dinner....who cooks it for them, who cleans the dishes afterwards, who puts your child to bed at night, who washes them in the tub every night, who takes them to the doctor when sick and who has to miss work in order to do it, who dresses your kid and who has to take them to school or make certain they make it safe to school?

She can put out and get with some rich dude, ending up with more opportunity.
Women are just as capable as men, if not, more capable.

not that easy when she's got a kid, stuck to her hip....most all women 'put out' now a days, why would the rich sugar daddy you think she can get, want her kid as baggage when plenty of hot women that are single are available?

 

[koshergrl]

If it were true, all single moms would have rich sugar daddies.

Rich men typically aren't all that keen to raise the children of deadbeat fathers.

 

[sealadaigh]

So you can't relate one example of support given to women but not men. Noted.

You could relive it to the point that you could make a specious claim about it, I note. You just find it too traumatizing to relate SPECIFIC examples of support provided to moms but not dads.

i gave you WIC. there were also a number of non-profits, not federal programs, for housing assistance and the like that catered exclousively to women.

i stopped playing.

and yes, it was pretty traumatic if you must know. i had physicaal custody of my child since he was three. his mother left him with me. her boyfriend was a millionaire. i was paying child support, child care, his care, working, etc. i said this has got to stop so i decided to seek custody legally. the judge says "a child belongs with his mother" (she had broken up with her boyfriend at this time.) three years later, he was so messed up in his life, her grandparents were hiding him from me,, she was back with her boyfriend and who knows where. finally i found out what was going on...and i was given legal custody.

and yeah, a whole lot of other bad stuff too so it was pretty traumatic and i really don't even like to talk about it...and i stopped playing the game and accepted thaat i would have to do it myself.

the law says women should et equal pay. they don't.

the law says no discrimination because of race. it still goes on.

you can say single parents, the law can, but de facto discrimination against fathers still occurs, even today, and i was, at the time, in a state that a father seeking custody of their child would only get it about one percent of the time.

the saddest part. he joined the navy and the postcard home was now a big letter. it contained his insurance and benificiary information and on the box that said "mother" it said "no mother named." i never wanted him to say that.

gender bias doesn't only happen to women.

I am sorry this happened to you bro. I commend you for doing your best. Any advice you would give me as a young man with no kids?

thank you.

the only advice i would give is to get the situation out of the courts and have a guardian ad litum appointed, whether things are amicable at the time or not.

the courts are adversarial and positioned based and while all the legal judgements come from them, they listen to the guardian ad litum, who is interest based and solution oriented. the main focus of the guardian ad litum is on the child but he or she also realises that two parents co-operating is in the child's very best interest.

things have changed dramatically since i went through this, and at the time, most agencies and non profits had no idea as to what to do with a single custodial father and most of us just went our own ways and kept quiet.

losher girl acts like it wasn't traumatic. i was an older father, i was 35 when my son was born and he is just shy of his 28th birthday now. i haven't really dealt with a lot of the bad stuff that went on, there really was no need. i try focusing on things like how i taught him how to ride his bike and stuff becaause who needs to feel bad and dwell on unhappy times, but i can tell you this. nothing in my life has benn more traumatic,and i was in southeast asia once with a lot of other american kids in the early seventies.

 

[koshergrl]

I don't know if it was traumatic or not. I can't get any specifics out of you. It isn't debate to say "it's true but I can't tell you what it is."

And if you can't debate, you shouldn't be in here.

 

[sealadaigh]

i gave you WIC. there were also a number of non-profits, not federal programs, for housing assistance and the like that catered exclousively to women.

i stopped playing.

and yes, it was pretty traumatic if you must know. i had physicaal custody of my child since he was three. his mother left him with me. her boyfriend was a millionaire. i was paying child support, child care, his care, working, etc. i said this has got to stop so i decided to seek custody legally. the judge says "a child belongs with his mother" (she had broken up with her boyfriend at this time.) three years later, he was so messed up in his life, her grandparents were hiding him from me,, she was back with her boyfriend and who knows where. finally i found out what was going on...and i was given legal custody.

and yeah, a whole lot of other bad stuff too so it was pretty traumatic and i really don't even like to talk about it...and i stopped playing the game and accepted thaat i would have to do it myself.

the law says women should et equal pay. they don't.

the law says no discrimination because of race. it still goes on.

you can say single parents, the law can, but de facto discrimination against fathers still occurs, even today, and i was, at the time, in a state that a father seeking custody of their child would only get it about one percent of the time.

the saddest part. he joined the navy and the postcard home was now a big letter. it contained his insurance and benificiary information and on the box that said "mother" it said "no mother named." i never wanted him to say that.

gender bias doesn't only happen to women.

I am sorry this happened to you bro. I commend you for doing your best. Any advice you would give me as a young man with no kids?

Ask him why her family wanted to hide the child from him, and why the child doesn't know who his mom is?

If he has custody, then it's all him.

the mother was in a rprivate rehab/mental health facility at the time, her boyfriend paid for it.

she "escaped" from that acility.

the mother was later in her life diagnosed with histrionic and narcissistic personality disorder.

her family did not want to hide my son from me. they apologised. she had told them she would lose custody and, frankly, they were afraid of her. they caame clean because i had to ile a contempt motion so i could have my visitation.

my child does know who his mom is. i never spoke ill of her and when he was old enough, i non-judgementally and gently explained her personality disorder to him. i still haven't told him everything. i probably won't. he doesn't need to know. occasionally, he will call her a "bitch" and i tell him "don't use that word around me and do not refer to your mom that way."

all this occurred between 20-25 years ago...there abouts. men didn't get custody of their children, computer use was not common in the rural area where i lived, and yes, when i went into DSHS, they told me i was ineligble for WIC and sent me to a few non-profits where i was also told "sorry.' that is fine and i understand. most of them dealt wirth women who had come out of a bad relationship or something. the country wasn't set up for single custodial fathers to be honest with you, i had never even met one myself before until several years later.

now, if you want to approach this as a "right" v "wrong" fine. i tend to actually not approach issues that way and willingly acknowledge that you are "right" and i am "wrong" because i don't think that really matters as to child support and the fair adjudication to these matters.

personally, i think you are opening a big can of worms that need not be opened. i would prefer to see calmer heads prevail.

 

[koshergrl]

And, as has already been pointed out to you, WIC serves children and pregnant/nursing women. YOU couldn't receive wic, but the children could have. If you were told they were ineligible because they were with you, whoever told you that was wrong. DHS has nothing to do with WIC except as a reference. You should have called the WIC people yourself.

And again, you're not specific about what services you were denied.

The problem that we came up against when it came to winning custody for fathers (which we did) was that fathers who would come in to pursue custody often hadn't paid support for their kids, had missed visitations, hadn't been the primary care provider during the marriage. The court looks at those situations and determines the mother is the more committed parent, and the one the children are most comfortable with.

We did have cases where the mother was crazy, and for whatever reason we couldn't get full custody...but in every one that I can think of, the father didn't show well, either, because he got drawn into playing these horrific games with the mom over the children. In those cases, you have a really hard time getting the kids away from the parent they are already placed with.

And that is a universal truth...the parent who initially gets custody is most likely to keep custody. So fathers who don't file first and ask for custody initially are not likely to be able to wrest custody away from the mom a year later, when the divorce/custody arrangement is finalized, and the kids have settled in with mom.

I do feel for you and your experience, but it is impossible to make a point if you are unwilling to cite specifics. This is a debate forum. You make the claim repeatedly that men are denied benefits provided to women, but getting you to clarify is like pulling teeth. I appreciate the reasons for your reticent, but it just has no place here. If you're going to make a claim, you need to specify what it is, and back it up...or recognize that you aren't prepared to debate.

 

[koshergrl]

Specifics about the claims you make.

I'm old enough that I was helping with custody trial prep, cross examination in the courtroom, drafting visitation and custody orders, and interviewing clients and witnesses in custody cases 25 years ago..while raising my own two boys on my own.

 

[saveliberty]

I think statistics bear out that all other factors being equal, women get custody koshergrl. I was fortunate to have nearly equal custody. I took me pay child support (she made more by far than me) and all the tax deductions to her as well. Oh, I also paid until they graduated COLLEGE. Small price to pay in my opinion.

I disagree with the statement child support is unfair though. Divorce is usually unfair to the kids. Using child support as a weapon against an ex spouse is wrong.

 

[SuMar]

Fathers shouldn't have to pay child support if they made it clear they never wanted a child, but the woman got pregnant anyway. A woman should have no right to force a man to become a father, because he has no legal right to force her to become a mother. Its reverse discrimination.

Whether the man wanted a child or not, he still did the deed which makes him equally responsible. Why punish the child? Makes more sense for both parents to do there part in taking care of the child than to waste tax dollars in raising the child.

 

[sealadaigh]

Fathers shouldn't have to pay child support if they made it clear they never wanted a child, but the woman got pregnant anyway. A woman should have no right to force a man to become a father, because he has no legal right to force her to become a mother. Its reverse discrimination.

while i may disagree with you on some things, i am remarkably impressed by the consistancy of your thought and your commitment to egalitarian principles and beliefs.

 

[sealadaigh]

Fathers shouldn't have to pay child support if they made it clear they never wanted a child, but the woman got pregnant anyway. A woman should have no right to force a man to become a father, because he has no legal right to force her to become a mother. Its reverse discrimination.

Whether the man wanted a child or not, he still did the deed which makes him equally responsible. Why punish the child? Makes more sense for both parents to do there part in taking care of the child than to waste tax dollars in raising the child.

now we will get into the can of worms that i had mentioned earlier.

a woman has a right to decide whether to terminate the pregnancy or not.

so far, men do not have any part in thet decision.

get ready. that issue is coming and will be argued in the courts some way or another, i am sure.

 

[koshergrl]

Fathers shouldn't have to pay child support if they made it clear they never wanted a child, but the woman got pregnant anyway. A woman should have no right to force a man to become a father, because he has no legal right to force her to become a mother. Its reverse discrimination.

Whether the man wanted a child or not, he still did the deed which makes him equally responsible. Why punish the child? Makes more sense for both parents to do there part in taking care of the child than to waste tax dollars in raising the child.

The courts won't punish the child based on a man's desire not to be responsible. It's an extremist and anti-child view that thankfully only deadbeats and their apologists will ever support.

 

[sealadaigh]

Fathers shouldn't have to pay child support if they made it clear they never wanted a child, but the woman got pregnant anyway. A woman should have no right to force a man to become a father, because he has no legal right to force her to become a mother. Its reverse discrimination.

Whether the man wanted a child or not, he still did the deed which makes him equally responsible. Why punish the child? Makes more sense for both parents to do there part in taking care of the child than to waste tax dollars in raising the child.

The courts won't punish the child based on a man's desire not to be responsible. It's an extremist and anti-child view that thankfully only deadbeats and their apologists will ever support.

i think a man who realizes that he cannot financially provide for a child and makes the fact that he doesn't want a child is being responsible.

i question your "only deadbeats and their apologists will ever support." that certainly seems like a statement of "global truth" to me.

are you at all familiar with child custody cases. they are handled at the state court level and it really might be best to confine your statements to the particular state you have had experience in. also, family courts really don't mete out punishment, per se, other than for contempt. as a para-legal you really should be aware of that.