Cheney Calls for full Release of Memos

[Zoom-boing]

One of the reasons Obama is releasing this stuff is for transparency. How is it transparent if only partial information is released?

If harsh interrogation techniques are no longer used how will our guys get intel from terrorists?

 

[catzmeow]

Why do you think I wouldn't have the 'stones' to do it?

Gang members killed ten times as many people last year as did the 2001 attacks. Hence, gang members are more dangerous than terrorists. You would willingly relinquish your rights for "safety" from terrorists you've never even seen in your community. Why on earth would you relinquish the safety of your living room for an urban war zone?

 

[catzmeow]

I've always said that. if they fought as hard for this country as they did to bring President Bush down I might garner up a little respect for them.. sadly it's not the case..

I voted for W, you ignorant twit. TWICE. That doesn't mean he didn't break the law.

 

[Zoom-boing]

You know what I'd like to see?

Cheney, Bush Jr., Rumsfailed and Condi Rice all thrown in jail at Spandau Prison.

Waterboard the men 6 times a day, and Condi 3 times a day for a month.

THEN let's see if they still think torture was a good idea.

If you believe water boarding is torture and torture is wrong, why do you suggest this be done to Cheney, Bush, Rumsfeld and Rice? Or is it ok if you really, really hate the people or think they did something wrong or committed a crime?

 

[Zoom-boing]

They didn't care when 3000 Americans died and they certainly don't give a shit about the people saved by slapping terrorists in the fact and waterboarding them.

Exactly because the very same looney left twits that whined and whined that Bush didn't do enough to stop 9-11. Are the very same assclowns who are now whining that he prevented another attack in California and Washington because he put a catapillar on a terrorist.

I wonder if they would have gotten more information if they had used a tarantula?

 

[catzmeow]

I don't understand precisely what is conservative about selling out the Bill of Rights.

I don't understand precisely what is conservative about giving a president unlimited powers to put even AMERICANS in a secret prison without access to an attorney, and then torture them.

I don't understand precisely what is conservative about failing to uphold the international treaties on torture that allow US to claim the moral high ground and protect our military service personnel.

WHAT IN THE HELL HAS HAPPENED TO CONSERVATIVISM if these advocates for torture consider themselves the Republican party's self-appointed spokespeople?

Let me clue you idiots up...TORTURE BY ANY GOVERNMENT is not something that a true conservative would endorse.

I am far more frightened of my government having unlimited powers to snoop, imprison and torture than I will ever be afraid of a bunch of unorganized towel-headed criminals.

What is so hard to understand about that?

REAL CONSERVATIVES understand the inherent dangers of giving a political leader impunity from prosecution and coupling that impunity with unlimited powers that violate the Bill of Rights and international law.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

I don't understand precisely what is conservative about selling out the Bill of Rights.

I don't understand precisely what is conservative about giving a president unlimited powers to put even AMERICANS in a secret prison without access to an attorney, and then torture them.

I don't understand precisely what is conservative about failing to uphold the international treaties on torture that allow US to claim the moral high ground and protect our military service personnel.

WHAT IN THE HELL HAS HAPPENED TO CONSERVATIVISM if these advocates for torture consider themselves the Republican party's self-appointed spokespeople?

Let me clue you idiots up...TORTURE BY ANY GOVERNMENT is not something that a true conservative would endorse.

I am far more frightened of my government having unlimited powers to snoop, imprison and torture than I will ever be afraid of a bunch of unorganized towel-headed criminals.

What is so hard to understand about that?

REAL CONSERVATIVES understand the inherent dangers of giving a political leader impunity from prosecution and coupling that impunity with unlimited powers that violate the Bill of Rights and international law.

See, this too rational. They won't get it.

 

[catzmeow]

What a load of juvenile nonsense. Grow up.

God, I love inadvertent irony.

 

[catzmeow]

See, this too rational. They won't get it.

My boyfriend, who is career military (served for a year in Tikrit, voluntarily), and I ended up talking about this exasperating thread today at lunch. He and I are in agreement on the whole torture issue, and he basically said, "As a member of the armed forces, I need my government to be beyond reproach because their actions will determine HOW I AM TREATED AS A POW."

We are both conservatives on many issues, including this war, and yet, we cannot fathom how people can justify this behavior by their government...state-sanctioned torture.

How do we then justifiably turn around and express outrage about the human rights violations of Cuba or China or North Korea, when WE BEHAVE THE SAME DAMN WAY?

It boggles the mind.

 

[Iriemon]

You ask a lot of questions. See my answers above.

I did. And that is why I asked these question. It should only take you a couple minutes to answer them. You can handle it.

You do realize I answered your questions, right?

Sorry I hadn't noticed. Thanks.

 

[Newby]

I don't understand precisely what is conservative about selling out the Bill of Rights.

I don't understand precisely what is conservative about giving a president unlimited powers to put even AMERICANS in a secret prison without access to an attorney, and then torture them.

I don't understand precisely what is conservative about failing to uphold the international treaties on torture that allow US to claim the moral high ground and protect our military service personnel.

WHAT IN THE HELL HAS HAPPENED TO CONSERVATIVISM if these advocates for torture consider themselves the Republican party's self-appointed spokespeople?

Let me clue you idiots up...TORTURE BY ANY GOVERNMENT is not something that a true conservative would endorse.

I am far more frightened of my government having unlimited powers to snoop, imprison and torture than I will ever be afraid of a bunch of unorganized towel-headed criminals.

What is so hard to understand about that?

REAL CONSERVATIVES understand the inherent dangers of giving a political leader impunity from prosecution and coupling that impunity with unlimited powers that violate the Bill of Rights and international law.

It depends on how you define 'torture', water boarding is not torture. No one is advocating real torture of anyone, but it's easier to be irrational than to really talk about the true topic. If they find evidence of real torture, then you would see a different reaction, justifiably so.

 

[catzmeow]

It depends on how you define 'torture', water boarding is not torture. No one is advocating real torture of anyone, but it's easier to be irrational than to really talk about the true topic. If they find evidence of real torture, then you would see a different reaction, justifiably so.

Are you fucking kidding me? Waterboarding IS torture.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l34Tx9oAHZo&feature=related[/ame]


Did you know that waterboarding is a war crime? In 1947, a Japanese soldier who used water boarding against a U.S. citizen during World War II was sentenced to 15 years in U.S. prison for committing a war crime. (http://science.howstuffworks.com/water-boarding1.htm)

 

[CrimsonWhite]

See, this too rational. They won't get it.

My boyfriend, who is career military (served for a year in Tikrit, voluntarily), and I ended up talking about this exasperating thread today at lunch. He and I are in agreement on the whole torture issue, and he basically said, "As a member of the armed forces, I need my government to be beyond reproach because their actions will determine HOW I AM TREATED AS A POW."

We are both conservatives on many issues, including this war, and yet, we cannot fathom how people can justify this behavior by their government...state-sanctioned torture.

How do we then justifiably turn around and express outrage about the human rights violations of Cuba or China or North Korea, when WE BEHAVE THE SAME DAMN WAY OUT OF CONVENIENCE AND EXPEDIENCE?

It boggles the mind.

See more rational. You just qualified you and your veteran husband as pinko commie liberal fags in the minds of those like Sinatra.

His argument failed because he is ass backward on conveneince and morality. He may have realized this and it could be the reaso he is now absent from this thread. It is never convenient to what is moral and good. It never has been since the beginning of time. That what makes it moral.

RGS has made the best arguments for torture that I have seen on this board and he ahsn't swayed me at all. Torture is wrong. It violates numerous international treaties and is a black eye on the reputation of our Great Nation. We have prosecuted war criminals in the past for using the same techniques that we are using against these extremists now. What does that say about our society? Nothing good.

 

[ABikerSailor]

You know what I'd like to see?

Cheney, Bush Jr., Rumsfailed and Condi Rice all thrown in jail at Spandau Prison.

Waterboard the men 6 times a day, and Condi 3 times a day for a month.

THEN let's see if they still think torture was a good idea.

If you believe water boarding is torture and torture is wrong, why do you suggest this be done to Cheney, Bush, Rumsfeld and Rice? Or is it ok if you really, really hate the people or think they did something wrong or committed a crime?

Yes, I believe torture is wrong. But.......if they do it to someone else, they should have it done to them.

You've obviously never been in the military, have ya? One of the deals is that before you are allowed to do certain things (practicing certain techniques), you must have it done to you.

Cheney and Bush Jr. did it to them, so therefore they should have it done to them.

Think of it as poetic justice. But......if ya want my true opinion?

Chain 'em all to a steel post and fire at 'em with a Bushmaster artillery weapon. Make the shells explode about 10 ft in front of them, midair.

 

[Article 15]

I don't understand precisely what is conservative about selling out the Bill of Rights.

I don't understand precisely what is conservative about giving a president unlimited powers to put even AMERICANS in a secret prison without access to an attorney, and then torture them.

I don't understand precisely what is conservative about failing to uphold the international treaties on torture that allow US to claim the moral high ground and protect our military service personnel.

WHAT IN THE HELL HAS HAPPENED TO CONSERVATIVISM if these advocates for torture consider themselves the Republican party's self-appointed spokespeople?

Let me clue you idiots up...TORTURE BY ANY GOVERNMENT is not something that a true conservative would endorse.

I am far more frightened of my government having unlimited powers to snoop, imprison and torture than I will ever be afraid of a bunch of unorganized towel-headed criminals.

What is so hard to understand about that?

REAL CONSERVATIVES understand the inherent dangers of giving a political leader impunity from prosecution and coupling that impunity with unlimited powers that violate the Bill of Rights and international law.

It depends on how you define 'torture', water boarding is not torture. No one is advocating real torture of anyone, but it's easier to be irrational than to really talk about the true topic. If they find evidence of real torture, then you would see a different reaction, justifiably so.

It was torture when we tried the Japanese for it after World War II ended.

 

[catzmeow]

It is never convenient to do what is moral and good. It never has been since the beginning of time. That what makes it moral.

This is why our founding fathers based our country on the rule of law and not the emotional sway of demagoguery.

I can't say that in the grip of some harm being done to my child, I wouldn't pursue anyone who harmed her/him by ANY MEANS POSSIBLE. But, this society cannot survive on that basis. Vigilantism is always justifiable in the minds of vigilantes, but no stable society can exist where vigilantism is the rule of the day.

We should never make laws in the heat of emotion, when we are panic-stricken and filled with fear. We should make laws and set policy under the cold sway of reason, to TIDE US THROUGH THE DAYS OF EMOTION, and keep us from unraveling into barbarism.

RGS has made the best arguments for torture that I have seen on this board and he ahsn't swayed me at all. Torture is wrong. It violates numerous international treaties and is a black eye on the reputation of our Great Nation. We have prosecuted war criminals in the past for using the same techniques that we are using against these extremists now. What does that say about our society? Nothing good.

I agree, wholeheartedly.

I compare this to dirty cops. There were a few cops who felt that gang members were getting away with all kinds of crimes in Los Angeles, and that they would create some fake cases and put those gang members away, off the streets, and "protect the people."

The ultimate outcome of those actions: The LAPD's gang unit (CRASH) was disbanded and disgraced. Gang crime went up. Community confidence in law enforcement dropped, dramatically. The lives of average street cops got more dangerous. The people were not safer. More harm was done than good.

Use of torture did not make any of us one bit safer. In fact, a government that approves, sanctions, and endorses torture threatens ALL OF US.

The end does not justify the means. it never has. It never will.

 

[Yurt]

You betray your ignorance there - you fail to understand morality.

You are a liar.

But take comfort - the convenience to vocalize your moral lie has been paid for in blood. Others stood strong so that you could remain weak.

Crimson served. DID YOU, muthafucka?

the, at best irony, of those who claim to be against torture and tyranny cursing down those who do not agree with them...

what great american principles

 

[CrimsonWhite]

I don't understand precisely what is conservative about selling out the Bill of Rights.

I don't understand precisely what is conservative about giving a president unlimited powers to put even AMERICANS in a secret prison without access to an attorney, and then torture them.

I don't understand precisely what is conservative about failing to uphold the international treaties on torture that allow US to claim the moral high ground and protect our military service personnel.

WHAT IN THE HELL HAS HAPPENED TO CONSERVATIVISM if these advocates for torture consider themselves the Republican party's self-appointed spokespeople?

Let me clue you idiots up...TORTURE BY ANY GOVERNMENT is not something that a true conservative would endorse.

I am far more frightened of my government having unlimited powers to snoop, imprison and torture than I will ever be afraid of a bunch of unorganized towel-headed criminals.

What is so hard to understand about that?

REAL CONSERVATIVES understand the inherent dangers of giving a political leader impunity from prosecution and coupling that impunity with unlimited powers that violate the Bill of Rights and international law.

It depends on how you define 'torture', water boarding is not torture. No one is advocating real torture of anyone, but it's easier to be irrational than to really talk about the true topic. If they find evidence of real torture, then you would see a different reaction, justifiably so.

Tell that to Colonel Chase Nielson. I'm pretty sure that he would say it was torture.

 

[catzmeow]

the, at best irony, of those who claim to be against torture and tyranny cursing down those who do not agree with them...

what great american principles

Americans are against profanity?

LMFAO.

Someone should tell Dick Cheney that.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

It is never convenient to do what is moral and good. It never has been since the beginning of time. That what makes it moral.

This is why our founding fathers based our country on the rule of law and not the emotional sway of demagoguery.

I can't say that in the grip of some harm being done to my child, I wouldn't pursue anyone who harmed her/him by ANY MEANS POSSIBLE. But, this society cannot survive on that basis. Vigilantism is always justifiable in the minds of vigilantes, but no stable society can exist where vigilantism is the rule of the day.

We should never make laws in the heat of emotion, when we are panic-stricken and filled with fear. We should make laws and set policy under the cold sway of reason, to TIDE US THROUGH THE DAYS OF EMOTION, and keep us from unraveling into barbarism.

RGS has made the best arguments for torture that I have seen on this board and he ahsn't swayed me at all. Torture is wrong. It violates numerous international treaties and is a black eye on the reputation of our Great Nation. We have prosecuted war criminals in the past for using the same techniques that we are using against these extremists now. What does that say about our society? Nothing good.

I agree, wholeheartedly.

I compare this to dirty cops. There were a few cops who felt that gang members were getting away with all kinds of crimes in Los Angeles, and that they would create some fake cases and put those gang members away, off the streets, and "protect the people."

The ultimate outcome of those actions: The LAPD's gang unit (CRASH) was disbanded and disgraced. Gang crime went up. Community confidence in law enforcement dropped, dramatically. The lives of average street cops got more dangerous. The people were not safer. More harm was done than good.

Use of torture did not make any of us one bit safer. In fact, a government that approves, sanctions, and endorses torture threatens ALL OF US.

The end does not justify the means. it never has. It never will.