Charlie Gard has passed

[SassyIrishLass]

The parents and guardians speak for the rights of those who cannot speak for themselves. Unless you live in a country with socialized medicine then the government and the courts decide. You belong to them. Your child belongs to them. It's not a difficult truth to grasp.

There are parents who would deny their children treatment because of their own personal religious beliefs. Who speaks up for the child then ?

Irrelevant.
Stop talking, admit you are wrong, be an adult. It won't hurt.

Im not sure that I can simplify the question any further. Who speaks for the child when the parents are wrong ?

If parents have the funds for any treatment it's THEIR decsion. To prevent them from pursing it is WRONG.

At some point the child might have had a chance. Why was it denied?

He had no chance and there was no cure. The child was in pain and the Medics wanted to prevent him fro suffering needlessly. They are better qualified than the parents or even you internet experts.

How do you know the experimental treatment wouldn't have helped?

You don't sit down and shut up

 

[DarkFury]

Charlie Gard gave his life to show millions of Americans the true failure of social medicine.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Again you are misinformed. The British Govt plays no part in this. Dr Hirano was actually invited over by GOSH on more than one occasion but did not bother to do so. The decisions on Charlies care were taken by the Doctors at GOSH in line with the accepted standards in the UK. The parents disagreed and it went to court. The Judges,all independent, heard the evidence and backed the hospital. The courts in the UK have a duty to consider the childs best interest. I understand that isnt the case in the US.

You seem to be looking for a bad guy when there isnt one.

Think about it for a while. The easiest thing for the hospital would have been to have sent him to the US. No fuss and no comebacks. They should be applauded for sticking up for the poor child.

That's a whimpy ass dodge.. And you're just defending the indefensible because of the partisan stick up you ass.

American doctors and researchers are NOT wasting their time as POLITICAL ADVOCATES. They have no standing in the rights of the child or the parents. So you could invite an ENTIRE SYMPOSIUM of Americans over for a wasteful debate on gene therapy for mitochondrial diseases, but LAWS and COURTS stood in the way of parental ADVOCACY and rights.

Well I will say it slowly.
The hospital invited Dr Hirano over to see if he could help. Nobody was standing in the way of that. The courts nor the evil left wing communist tory government were not parties to that.
He was invited as an expert in the field and nothing else.
I am not clear what debate you are referring to.You seem to be trying to drag a load of baggage into what is a straightforward situation.

You're obviously not aware of Remote Medicine technology. They do SURGERY from 1000s of miles away. I think they can electronically send all the relative medical records and test results across the Atlantic now.

What they CAN'T DO is send a $80M specialized biochem lab on a plane with Dr Hirano..

What he could have done is look at the childs records. He could have done that in his own bedroom. You havent given one reason why that could not have happened.
Is it possible he only came to the UK when he found out how much money the Gards were sitting on ?

Researchers should have free access to ANY of the medical records. UNLESS Brit Health blocked that move by the parents. WHICH IN ITSELF is fucking sinister thing to do.. There is no reason to visit. The kid needed the specialized services of the Lab in the US. What part of that don't you understand?

I just told you, you can't put an $80M specialized lab and the folks that know the protocols on a plane. Since you don't understand the tactical challenges here -- maybe you should STFU....

And with all this access to the data the lab didnt bother to read any of it.Until they found out the parents had money. Maybe you should stfu and stop making politics out of this.

 

[flacaltenn]

I think this child has been used, and it's a bit shameful. I listened to a British politician (conservative) being interviewed on this. Out of everyone arguing for the treatment outside the parents - none had seen the medical evidence on the child's condition. Not even the doctor offering the supposed treatment (who had a financial interest in it). He was invited to Britain in January to see the child and all his medical records and he didn't go. American politicians - in the current political atmosphere of repealing ACA are using it as political weapon against "socialized" medicine - that is exactly why there is so much attention focused on him. But it's not a fight between "socialized medicine" and a baby's life. As this conservative MP pointed out - socialized medicine is not perfect, but in this case it's medical ethics vs. the parents. She also pointed out that the unacknowledged tragedy of this was prolonging the baby's agony and prolonging the parents agony when they needed to come to terms with the reality of their baby's condition. The baby became a political pawn.

I addressed WHY researchers in the US are not ADVOCATES for dragging folks into experimental programs. They cannot assess this remotely. No NEED to go to Britain. They can get access to every test and record without traveling. What they NEEDED was for Charlie to be in THEIR unique and very specialized lab in order to determine the eligibility for treatment. Researchers should NOT beg for experimental patients --- ever. Or get entangled in LEGAL disputes about transferring care from one system to another.

It WAS a fight between "socialized medicine" and family rights. And families lost. All of the excuses about what the RESEARCHERS did or didn't do are MUTE -- if the Courts are gonna back up the arrogance and insensitivity of the Brit Health system... Again -- researchers are not advocates or salespeople. Don't expect them to get entangled in this.

Charlie could have HELPED hundreds of other children afflicted with this disease. Now he's just dead....

No, he is beyond pain.

What do you mean NO?? You don't realize that his misfortune could save THOUSANDS of lives in the future? EVEN IF he wasn't the 15 to 50% remission result...

Give me ONE REASON why the parents were not allowed to take that child for treatment. And stop the f'ing horseshit about "how much money" they might have had. Because that just makes you more like a socialist class warrior than anyone concerned about choices, freedom, and individual sovereignty..

 

[SassyIrishLass]

That's a whimpy ass dodge.. And you're just defending the indefensible because of the partisan stick up you ass.

American doctors and researchers are NOT wasting their time as POLITICAL ADVOCATES. They have no standing in the rights of the child or the parents. So you could invite an ENTIRE SYMPOSIUM of Americans over for a wasteful debate on gene therapy for mitochondrial diseases, but LAWS and COURTS stood in the way of parental ADVOCACY and rights.

Well I will say it slowly.
The hospital invited Dr Hirano over to see if he could help. Nobody was standing in the way of that. The courts nor the evil left wing communist tory government were not parties to that.
He was invited as an expert in the field and nothing else.
I am not clear what debate you are referring to.You seem to be trying to drag a load of baggage into what is a straightforward situation.

You're obviously not aware of Remote Medicine technology. They do SURGERY from 1000s of miles away. I think they can electronically send all the relative medical records and test results across the Atlantic now.

What they CAN'T DO is send a $80M specialized biochem lab on a plane with Dr Hirano..

What he could have done is look at the childs records. He could have done that in his own bedroom. You havent given one reason why that could not have happened.
Is it possible he only came to the UK when he found out how much money the Gards were sitting on ?

Researchers should have free access to ANY of the medical records. UNLESS Brit Health blocked that move by the parents. WHICH IN ITSELF is fucking sinister thing to do.. There is no reason to visit. The kid needed the specialized services of the Lab in the US. What part of that don't you understand?

I just told you, you can't put an $80M specialized lab and the folks that know the protocols on a plane. Since you don't understand the tactical challenges here -- maybe you should STFU....

And with all this access to the data the lab didnt bother to read any of it.Until they found out the parents had money. Maybe you should stfu and stop making politics out of this.

Britain's failed socialized medicine made it political. You clowns can't get anything right

 

[flacaltenn]

That's a whimpy ass dodge.. And you're just defending the indefensible because of the partisan stick up you ass.

American doctors and researchers are NOT wasting their time as POLITICAL ADVOCATES. They have no standing in the rights of the child or the parents. So you could invite an ENTIRE SYMPOSIUM of Americans over for a wasteful debate on gene therapy for mitochondrial diseases, but LAWS and COURTS stood in the way of parental ADVOCACY and rights.

Well I will say it slowly.
The hospital invited Dr Hirano over to see if he could help. Nobody was standing in the way of that. The courts nor the evil left wing communist tory government were not parties to that.
He was invited as an expert in the field and nothing else.
I am not clear what debate you are referring to.You seem to be trying to drag a load of baggage into what is a straightforward situation.

You're obviously not aware of Remote Medicine technology. They do SURGERY from 1000s of miles away. I think they can electronically send all the relative medical records and test results across the Atlantic now.

What they CAN'T DO is send a $80M specialized biochem lab on a plane with Dr Hirano..

What he could have done is look at the childs records. He could have done that in his own bedroom. You havent given one reason why that could not have happened.
Is it possible he only came to the UK when he found out how much money the Gards were sitting on ?

Researchers should have free access to ANY of the medical records. UNLESS Brit Health blocked that move by the parents. WHICH IN ITSELF is fucking sinister thing to do.. There is no reason to visit. The kid needed the specialized services of the Lab in the US. What part of that don't you understand?

I just told you, you can't put an $80M specialized lab and the folks that know the protocols on a plane. Since you don't understand the tactical challenges here -- maybe you should STFU....

And with all this access to the data the lab didnt bother to read any of it.Until they found out the parents had money. Maybe you should stfu and stop making politics out of this.

You're the ONLY one concerned here with politics and money and controlling power. The rest of us want loving families to take advantage of EVERY OPPORTUNITY to save a young child like that. And it should never be a "HERD decision".......

 

[flacaltenn]

If Brit Health wasted even a WEEK of that child's life trying to restrain the parents from transferring him, they HELP deny him that chance. And helped to deny 1000s of future Charlies the benefit of research...

 

[flacaltenn]

The parents and guardians speak for the rights of those who cannot speak for themselves. Unless you live in a country with socialized medicine then the government and the courts decide. You belong to them. Your child belongs to them. It's not a difficult truth to grasp.

There are parents who would deny their children treatment because of their own personal religious beliefs. Who speaks up for the child then ?

You are saying that only the government has the power to deny treatment no matter that the patient can pay. They don't even need to give a reason.

The government has no say in this. It is a matter for the Drs, parents and the court. The Drs made a decision that the treatment would not benefit the child. The parents disagreed, the court looked at the evidence,including the testimony of Hirano and agreed with GOSH.
Are you really saying that the Drs at GOSH would deliberately deny the child treatment that might save him ?
This isnt America you know.

It is the government who said they couldn't take the kid.
Not the doctors.

And they did deliberately deny him treatment, by refusing to release him to be taken elsewhere. "You don't like your current treatment, fuck you!"

Sigh . Our courts are independent of the government. Our Judges are independent and are not political appointees. And there was no treatment that could help this child , which is why the court made the decision that it did. You obviously have zero understanding of how things are in the UK.

Why do you persist in abusing this child by trying to make him a political football ?

It is the government who said they couldn't take the kid.
Not the doctors.

Just take a moment and consider the utter stupidity of this statement.

Do you think that the "deep state" sit around looking for ways to oppress this infant ?

Why would they do that ?

To save money ? Nope, they would have saved money by sending him to the States.
To make themselves popular ? Hardly.
To undermine the Medics ? Nope, the Medics were responsible for all of this.
To direct a verdict through the courts ? Well it might work like that in the US but British Judges are used to telling the government to fuck off.

You got nothing apart from some ignorant half baked shite that you have speed read off some nutty fundie website.

Here is a FACT - nobody,not one, medical expert, thought that shipping this child to the US would benefit him.

Here's an alternate fact.. The researchers DID offer a chance. It wasn't in Brit Health Services interests to allow the US researchers a chance to save the child. Especially after this whole circus made front page news. Arrogant repressive bureaucracies tend to dig in when threatened with looking bad.

Not up to them to determine that a 15 to 50% chance of remission was NOT in the family interest. These assholes even denied "home hospice care" to the parents after it was too late to travel. They NEEDED to control the "optics" of the political implications..

 

[EvilCat Breath]

It should not have gone beyond the treatment and the ability to pay for such treatment. The only interest the courts have is the interest of an owner in his dog.

Now that this has worked so well, do not be surprised if ability to pay is no impediment to the power of the government to order the withholding of medical care. Any medical care for any person.

Not necessarily...because a child is not property and the child has rights as well. The courts can become involved if the parent's quest for medical intervention runs counter to established practices and ethics.

Then the courts have developed a system of legal slavery and they own you.

We're going to kill you in your best interests. It's grotesque.

No matter what the deflection, change of subject, twist, or anything else socialists want to come up with. Socialized medicine empowers the government to order medical care withheld even if there is an ability to pay. There really is nothing more reprehensible. Charlie Gard is just a symptom of a much larger and much more pernicious social disease.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

This is a day of celebration among the death cultists! Baby killers, rejoice!

Dumb statement. You are such a disgusting hateful person

Wow. I agree. No one celebrates the deaths of tiny sick babies.

koshergrl What is disgusting is that conservatives and right wingers don't feel the same Christian compassion for hungry children in the US as well as refugees around the world.


Sent from my iPad using USMessageBoard.com

Christians do far more for hungry children than the left ever has or will.

That was a stupid statement

The stupid statement is that someone should not be allowed to pay for their own medical care because there are refugee children. ...

Which is the very essence of socialism.

 

[Dr Grump]

That is one situation where I would, literally, kill people. If my kid goes into a hospital, and I decide to remove him and they try to stop me, people are going to die.

More than likely you will be the one dying...

 

[EvilCat Breath]

I think this child has been used, and it's a bit shameful. I listened to a British politician (conservative) being interviewed on this. Out of everyone arguing for the treatment outside the parents - none had seen the medical evidence on the child's condition. Not even the doctor offering the supposed treatment (who had a financial interest in it). He was invited to Britain in January to see the child and all his medical records and he didn't go. American politicians - in the current political atmosphere of repealing ACA are using it as political weapon against "socialized" medicine - that is exactly why there is so much attention focused on him. But it's not a fight between "socialized medicine" and a baby's life. As this conservative MP pointed out - socialized medicine is not perfect, but in this case it's medical ethics vs. the parents. She also pointed out that the unacknowledged tragedy of this was prolonging the baby's agony and prolonging the parents agony when they needed to come to terms with the reality of their baby's condition. The baby became a political pawn.

I addressed WHY researchers in the US are not ADVOCATES for dragging folks into experimental programs. They cannot assess this remotely. No NEED to go to Britain. They can get access to every test and record without traveling. What they NEEDED was for Charlie to be in THEIR unique and very specialized lab in order to determine the eligibility for treatment. Researchers should NOT beg for experimental patients --- ever. Or get entangled in LEGAL disputes about transferring care from one system to another.

It WAS a fight between "socialized medicine" and family rights. And families lost. All of the excuses about what the RESEARCHERS did or didn't do are MUTE -- if the Courts are gonna back up the arrogance and insensitivity of the Brit Health system... Again -- researchers are not advocates or salespeople. Don't expect them to get entangled in this.

Charlie could have HELPED hundreds of other children afflicted with this disease. Now he's just dead....

No, he is beyond pain.

What do you mean NO?? You don't realize that his misfortune could save THOUSANDS of lives in the future? EVEN IF he wasn't the 15 to 50% remission result...

Give me ONE REASON why the parents were not allowed to take that child for treatment. And stop the f'ing horseshit about "how much money" they might have had. Because that just makes you more like a socialist class warrior than anyone concerned about choices, freedom, and individual sovereignty..

This is socialism. The foundation of socialism. Someone might someday develop something that would turn a profit. That's what has to be stopped.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

That's a whimpy ass dodge.. And you're just defending the indefensible because of the partisan stick up you ass.

American doctors and researchers are NOT wasting their time as POLITICAL ADVOCATES. They have no standing in the rights of the child or the parents. So you could invite an ENTIRE SYMPOSIUM of Americans over for a wasteful debate on gene therapy for mitochondrial diseases, but LAWS and COURTS stood in the way of parental ADVOCACY and rights.

Well I will say it slowly.
The hospital invited Dr Hirano over to see if he could help. Nobody was standing in the way of that. The courts nor the evil left wing communist tory government were not parties to that.
He was invited as an expert in the field and nothing else.
I am not clear what debate you are referring to.You seem to be trying to drag a load of baggage into what is a straightforward situation.

You're obviously not aware of Remote Medicine technology. They do SURGERY from 1000s of miles away. I think they can electronically send all the relative medical records and test results across the Atlantic now.

What they CAN'T DO is send a $80M specialized biochem lab on a plane with Dr Hirano..

What he could have done is look at the childs records. He could have done that in his own bedroom. You havent given one reason why that could not have happened.
Is it possible he only came to the UK when he found out how much money the Gards were sitting on ?

Researchers should have free access to ANY of the medical records. UNLESS Brit Health blocked that move by the parents. WHICH IN ITSELF is fucking sinister thing to do.. There is no reason to visit. The kid needed the specialized services of the Lab in the US. What part of that don't you understand?

I just told you, you can't put an $80M specialized lab and the folks that know the protocols on a plane. Since you don't understand the tactical challenges here -- maybe you should STFU....

And with all this access to the data the lab didnt bother to read any of it.Until they found out the parents had money. Maybe you should stfu and stop making politics out of this.

Why would they look at any medical records unless the parents had the means to go to the facility? Wouldn't that be a colossal waste of time?

 

[badger2]

Hirano said that Charlie had a 15-56% chance. Which genes were involved? Navajo Arg50Gln mutation in MPV17?

 

[koshergrl]

This is a day of celebration among the death cultists! Baby killers, rejoice!

Dumb statement. You are such a disgusting hateful person

Wow. I agree. No one celebrates the deaths of tiny sick babies.

koshergrl What is disgusting is that conservatives and right wingers don't feel the same Christian compassion for hungry children in the US as well as refugees around the world.


Sent from my iPad using USMessageBoard.com

Christians do far more for hungry children than the left ever has or will.

That was a stupid statement

The stupid statement is that someone should not be allowed to pay for their own medical care because there are refugee children. ...

Which is the very essence of socialism.

As is "parents can't be trusted to make decisions for their children. The state must be the ultimate authority!"

Fuck that shit. That's why I keep guns.

 

[badger2]

Get the world's attention, then no follow up. What genes? The prisoners don't get to find out?

 

[koshergrl]

Hirano said that Charlie had a 15-56% chance. Which genes were involved? Navajo Arg50Gln mutation in MPV17?

Compared to 0.00 percent if he stayed in Britain and was denied treatment.

 

[SassyIrishLass]

As I've read this thread it occurred to me some people probably shouldn't be parents

 

[koshergrl]

As I've read this thread it occurred to me some people probably shouldn't be parents

Babykillers and pedophiles should never have children. Or have any say in what happens to them.

Which is why we all objected to obamacare and death panels.

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

Well I will say it slowly.
The hospital invited Dr Hirano over to see if he could help. Nobody was standing in the way of that. The courts nor the evil left wing communist tory government were not parties to that.
He was invited as an expert in the field and nothing else.
I am not clear what debate you are referring to.You seem to be trying to drag a load of baggage into what is a straightforward situation.

You're obviously not aware of Remote Medicine technology. They do SURGERY from 1000s of miles away. I think they can electronically send all the relative medical records and test results across the Atlantic now.

What they CAN'T DO is send a $80M specialized biochem lab on a plane with Dr Hirano..

What he could have done is look at the childs records. He could have done that in his own bedroom. You havent given one reason why that could not have happened.
Is it possible he only came to the UK when he found out how much money the Gards were sitting on ?

Researchers should have free access to ANY of the medical records. UNLESS Brit Health blocked that move by the parents. WHICH IN ITSELF is fucking sinister thing to do.. There is no reason to visit. The kid needed the specialized services of the Lab in the US. What part of that don't you understand?

I just told you, you can't put an $80M specialized lab and the folks that know the protocols on a plane. Since you don't understand the tactical challenges here -- maybe you should STFU....

And with all this access to the data the lab didnt bother to read any of it.Until they found out the parents had money. Maybe you should stfu and stop making politics out of this.

Britain's failed socialized medicine made it political. You clowns can't get anything right

The British have the most inept health service on our Continent, when we lived in London we never used it and always used private.

EG. if the British want to see a Consultant, they first must get a letter from their Doctor sent to and then they get placed upon a waiting list which can be waiting any time between two months to a year and a half, this on NHS.

The above same if they go Private, they still must get a letter from their Doctor but then they will have an appointment any time between two days to five days.

Also one time a friend of ours had a small accident and his wife had no choice but to take him to A&E (Accident and the Emergencies) and a chief nurse looked at him and then said okay but he would have to wait for the Doctor to look at him also to prescribe painkillers, they wait SIX hours for the Doctor to get to them.

This is the British NHS not a good situation for them.