Challenge the Atheist!

[Vandalshandle]

Not good enough. Prove it to me. You could be a bot for all I know.

It's good enough for me. Since of the three of us I am the only one I am certain exists, my vote wins.

LOL>..

Fair enough. But in regards to the point I was 'trying' to make. The human soul is just as immaterial and just as hard to prove as the existence of gods. i'm not a 'believer' by any stretch, but I think it's important to keep the debate fair.

I am pretty sure that I am, but the rest of you guys are only a figment nueton of my imagination. I know that to be true, because I can make you disappear if I wanted to. The truth is, though, that you seem like a nice bunch of folks, so I won't smite you....

 

[PratchettFan]

It's good enough for me. Since of the three of us I am the only one I am certain exists, my vote wins.

LOL>..

Fair enough. But in regards to the point I was 'trying' to make. The human soul is just as immaterial and just as hard to prove as the existence of gods. i'm not a 'believer' by any stretch, but I think it's important to keep the debate fair.

I am pretty sure that I am, but the rest of you guys are only a figment nueton of my imagination. I know that to be true, because I can make you disappear if I wanted to. The truth is, though, that you seem like a nice bunch of folks, so I won't smite you....

Pity. It's been a long time since I've had a good smiting.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Some day God will deal with the Atheist...

God finds Christians to be pretentious boors

He would rather hang out with atheists

Which explains why everyone is born an Atheist.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Evidence indicates Daniel was actually well-known by the second century. First Maccabees (2:59f) and Baruch (1:15-3:3) both allude to Daniel and his book. Furthermore, many fragments of Daniel were found at Qumran, implying the book was of some importance by the third century.

You had better do some more reading. You've got your dates wrong.

Moreover, why do you assume that even if a person existed in history or legend, that some other person could not make up stories about them?

That certainly happened about the non-existent and mythical Moses, and about the quasi-historical David and Solomon. Those stories about the early life of David are so obviously make-believe, on a par with Paul Bunyan and Robin Hood!

The Book of Daniel was written in the 2nd century B.C. Serious biblical scholarship established that long ago. Anything that had some relationship to historical fact was written long after the events, and it was simply a lie that it was prediction.
.

Archeologists have proven otherwise. That anything was added to the Book of Daniel can be proven by the fact that the book was copied letter for letter, and was in different locations belonging to different cultures, and any additions can be checked against the early copies. Nothing was added at a later date.

But odd that a myth could make up a story at all!
Especially a pretend Moses.
The real myth is, that a herdsman made the whole Tower thing. Let's see if anyone else agreed with the account from the herdsman that you say never existed. (Unless Nebuchadnezzar is a pretend character too........)

King Nebuchadnezzar's account of "the most ancient monument of Babylon, that was 460 feet by 690 feet at the base, and 275 feet high".

"A former King built it, but he did not complete it head.
People had abandoned it, without order expressing their words."

The King knew why the tower was never finished, and never mentions herdsmen, nor does the King contradict the Biblical account. And he was no friend to the God who caused the babbling, so he had no agenda to add validity to the event.


Do you know the name of the "mythical" herdsman that predicted the Messiah would have his hands and feet pierced and would be hung on a tree 500 years before Romans hung people on trees? Lucky mythical guess? Again?

 

[Derideo_Te]

. and I am condemned to hell just because I guessed wrong

Don't leave you eternity to guesswork. Try homework instead. And no one condemns you to hell. You have a choice.

and:

I prophecy that an American major league baseball team will win the World Series this year.

Let's up the ante. Give me the stats now, on all of the league's players at the end of the season, using the same standards God gave for His prophets, eg Daniel, or Isaiah, keeping in mind that if you are incorrect on any stat, you die. (That way we know you are not guessing).

Who will win the next Nobel prize?
What horse will win the Derby? Which will win the Preakness? The name of the last horse to cross the finish line in both races.
The date when the first cancer cure will be administered?
Name the president of the US, sitting in the oval office 70 years from now..........

Nostradamus is a prophet with a better "track record" than all of your bible prophets put together. Too bad all of his prophecies need to be "interpreted" just like your biblical prophecies. In other words those prophecies are only as "true" as the post facto editors of the bible could make them. The funniest thing about "prophecies" is that all the incorrect ones are ignored while only the ones that "came true" are remembered. No one knows the future and that includes your mythical deity.

 

[amrchaos]

Prophecy has been brought up numerous times. Prophecy is a popular topic amongst the religious, as that which has been seen to be fulfilled is an important claim to legitimacy. While I appreciate and admire the sentiment of Christianity, and many of the moral lessons of the Bible, reliance on prophecy is extremely problematic.

The Bible predicted many things that were supposed to have happened in the past or have not yet happened. That is, there are plenty of examples of unfulfilled prophecy.

The Ezekiel prophecy of the destruction of Tyre by Nebuchadnezzar is a dubious one. Scripture says fairly blatantly that Tyre would be completely destroyed. It was not, but let's say that this one can be considered partially fulfilled.

Ezekiel describes the utter destruction of Egypt by God and turned into a desolate waste for 40 years. Perhaps this is still going to happen, because it hasn't happened yet, and I doubt this prophecy was intended to take that long. Additionally, Nebuchadnezzar was supposed to have attacked and destroyed Egypt and filled the land with the bodies of the slain. Neb's only attempt at invading Egypt was not a success.

Both Ezekiel and Isaiah predicted that the Nile would dry up. Isaiah gives a pretty clear time line, not something that may still be fulfilled, but to have happened during pagan Egypt. The Nile is not nor has it ever been dry.

The Isaiah prophecy that Egypt would speak the language of Canaan and adopt Judaism. Perhaps we can loosely interpret that Isaiah is referring to Hebrew in general. Otherwise this prophecy is a virtual impossibility since the Canaanite languages are long dead. So, I guess perhaps this prophecy could still come to pass and Egypt will speak Hebrew and adopt Judaism? Call me a skeptic on this one.

The Ezekiel prophecy that Israel will live in peace with it's neighbors must be on that will still come to pass, as the entire history of Israel goes in direct contrast to it. No specific time line is given, so I guess time will tell.

There are other examples, just as I am sure there are theists who can point out examples of fulfilled prophecies. Additionally, this is not meant to ridicule Christians, dissuade faith, or claim that Christianity is full of it. I do have serious issues with prophecy, however. Prophecy is often touted as a testament to Biblical inerrancy, yet we are asked to disregard clearly unfulfilled prophecies, or at least not count them against this idea of inerrancy.

What value I find in the Bible comes not from considering it the inerrant Word of God, so I'm not under any burden to prove anything. Those that make this claim, however, are under such an obligation.

A question about prophecy

How do we know that these prophecies came before the event? Because the Bible told us so?

What if the people wrote the bible after the events happened, how would we even know?

 

[The Irish Ram]

. and I am condemned to hell just because I guessed wrong

Don't leave you eternity to guesswork. Try homework instead. And no one condemns you to hell. You have a choice.

and:

I prophecy that an American major league baseball team will win the World Series this year.

Let's up the ante. Give me the stats now, on all of the league's players at the end of the season, using the same standards God gave for His prophets, eg Daniel, or Isaiah, keeping in mind that if you are incorrect on any stat, you die. (That way we know you are not guessing).

Who will win the next Nobel prize?
What horse will win the Derby? Which will win the Preakness? The name of the last horse to cross the finish line in both races.
The date when the first cancer cure will be administered?
Name the president of the US, sitting in the oval office 70 years from now..........

Nostradamus is a prophet with a better "track record" than all of your bible prophets put together. Too bad all of his prophecies need to be "interpreted" just like your biblical prophecies. In other words those prophecies are only as "true" as the post facto editors of the bible could make them. The funniest thing about "prophecies" is that all the incorrect ones are ignored while only the ones that "came true" are remembered.

Not such a good choice for disproving Bible prophecy, considering Nostradamus was devoutly religious and would meditate before revealing his predictions. If you consider him valid, then indeed someone can and did see into the future. You can't have it both ways.

Post facto editors would have had to find and rework the Dead Sea scrolls having ancient papyrus to print on for their ruse, and then rehide them to accomplish what you say they did.

Did the Bible "editors" make God produce more rain for Israel too, to add credence to the pre facto prediction of more rain only after the Jews returned to Israel, because they were all dead before the Jews returned to Israel.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Don't leave you eternity to guesswork. Try homework instead. And no one condemns you to hell. You have a choice.

and:


Let's up the ante. Give me the stats now, on all of the league's players at the end of the season, using the same standards God gave for His prophets, eg Daniel, or Isaiah, keeping in mind that if you are incorrect on any stat, you die. (That way we know you are not guessing).

Who will win the next Nobel prize?
What horse will win the Derby? Which will win the Preakness? The name of the last horse to cross the finish line in both races.
The date when the first cancer cure will be administered?
Name the president of the US, sitting in the oval office 70 years from now..........

Nostradamus is a prophet with a better "track record" than all of your bible prophets put together. Too bad all of his prophecies need to be "interpreted" just like your biblical prophecies. In other words those prophecies are only as "true" as the post facto editors of the bible could make them. The funniest thing about "prophecies" is that all the incorrect ones are ignored while only the ones that "came true" are remembered.

Not such a good choice for disproving Bible prophecy, considering Nostradamus was devoutly religious and would meditate before revealing his predictions. If you consider him valid, then indeed someone can and did see into the future. You can't have it both ways.

Post facto editors would have had to find and rework the Dead Sea scrolls having ancient papyrus to print on for their ruse, and then rehide them to accomplish what you say they did.

Did the Bible "editors" make God produce more rain for Israel too, to add credence to the pre facto prediction of more rain only after the Jews returned to Israel, because they were all dead before the Jews returned to Israel.

So did Nostradamus devoutly meditate before predicting the advent of Korean Gangnam style?

"From the calm morning, the end will come when of the dancing horse the number of circles will be 9."

 

[The Irish Ram]

Prophecy has been brought up numerous times. Prophecy is a popular topic amongst the religious, as that which has been seen to be fulfilled is an important claim to legitimacy. While I appreciate and admire the sentiment of Christianity, and many of the moral lessons of the Bible, reliance on prophecy is extremely problematic.

The Bible predicted many things that were supposed to have happened in the past or have not yet happened. That is, there are plenty of examples of unfulfilled prophecy.

The Ezekiel prophecy of the destruction of Tyre by Nebuchadnezzar is a dubious one. Scripture says fairly blatantly that Tyre would be completely destroyed. It was not, but let's say that this one can be considered partially fulfilled.

Ezekiel describes the utter destruction of Egypt by God and turned into a desolate waste for 40 years. Perhaps this is still going to happen, because it hasn't happened yet, and I doubt this prophecy was intended to take that long. Additionally, Nebuchadnezzar was supposed to have attacked and destroyed Egypt and filled the land with the bodies of the slain. Neb's only attempt at invading Egypt was not a success.

Both Ezekiel and Isaiah predicted that the Nile would dry up. Isaiah gives a pretty clear time line, not something that may still be fulfilled, but to have happened during pagan Egypt. The Nile is not nor has it ever been dry.

The Isaiah prophecy that Egypt would speak the language of Canaan and adopt Judaism. Perhaps we can loosely interpret that Isaiah is referring to Hebrew in general. Otherwise this prophecy is a virtual impossibility since the Canaanite languages are long dead. So, I guess perhaps this prophecy could still come to pass and Egypt will speak Hebrew and adopt Judaism? Call me a skeptic on this one.

The Ezekiel prophecy that Israel will live in peace with it's neighbors must be on that will still come to pass, as the entire history of Israel goes in direct contrast to it. No specific time line is given, so I guess time will tell.

There are other examples, just as I am sure there are theists who can point out examples of fulfilled prophecies. Additionally, this is not meant to ridicule Christians, dissuade faith, or claim that Christianity is full of it. I do have serious issues with prophecy, however. Prophecy is often touted as a testament to Biblical inerrancy, yet we are asked to disregard clearly unfulfilled prophecies, or at least not count them against this idea of inerrancy.

What value I find in the Bible comes not from considering it the inerrant Word of God, so I'm not under any burden to prove anything. Those that make this claim, however, are under such an obligation.

A question about prophecy

How do we know that these prophecies came before the event? Because the Bible told us so?

What if the people wrote the bible after the events happened, how would we even know?

Timing, ancient data, dead sea scrolls, archeological digs, current events.......
All of the prophets were dead before these events came to fruition, and nothing new was added to the Torah after these events took place:

The increase in rain to Israel.
That the Jews would regain control of Israel.
^ in one day.
That they would be surrounded by enemies.
That they would resurrect the pure language they had abandoned for thousands of years.
That they would live together as a group, having not done so in the past.
That Ethiopians would be given citizenship in Israel. (unheard of for Jews)
The reunification of the Roman Empire.
and so many more specific, not the norm, predictions that God, who can move through the dimension of time, gave His prophets to prove that God could see the end from the beginning.

 

[amrchaos]

Is it just me or do some of you think this way?

God as a living being does have the essence of previous gods from other cultures/myths plus tends to symbolize a Santa Claus for Adults.

That is my q-op!!

 

[numan]

Some day God will deal with the Atheist...

God finds Christians to be pretentious boors

He would rather hang out with atheists

Which explains why everyone is born an Atheist.

Droll, Derideo, very droll !! · ·

.

 

[numan]

'
I like your postings, amrchaos...

...but why do you assume mega-corporations aren't supporting libertarianism? · ·

...or is your avatar an ironic suggestion that we should consider that the Lords of Creation are supporting libertarianism? · ·
.

 

[Youwerecreated]

I think that once I die, I as an individual or identity no longer exist in any form, corporeal or spiritual. Only as a memory for those who remember me.

How do you know? What supports your belief? And what if you're wong?

I can't speak for others, but if I am wrong I will look at god and simply say, "What the ****?"

According to God that will not be the response of the nonbeliever.

 

[PratchettFan]

How do you know? What supports your belief? And what if you're wong?

I can't speak for others, but if I am wrong I will look at god and simply say, "What the ****?"

According to God that will not be the response of the nonbeliever.

It would seem then that God is wrong.

 

[Derideo_Te]

I can't speak for others, but if I am wrong I will look at god and simply say, "What the ****?"

According to God that will not be the response of the nonbeliever.

It would seem then that God is wrong.

That would not be the first time either.

 

[KevinWestern]

'
I like your postings, amrchaos...

...but why do you assume mega-corporations aren't supporting libertarianism? · ·

...or is your avatar an ironic suggestion that we should consider that the Lords of Creation are supporting libertarianism? · ·
.

I believe that Mega Corporations gain much more from rigging regulations and tax codes than they would in the absence of those things (ie Libertarianism). I think they welcome 'Big Government' much more than we are led to believe.

Check the poorly named "Marketplace Fairness Act".





.

 

[hortysir]

I think that once I die, I as an individual or identity no longer exist in any form, corporeal or spiritual. Only as a memory for those who remember me.

How do you know? What supports your belief? And what if you're wong?

I can't speak for others, but if I am wrong I will look at god and simply say, "What the ****?"

I can bet a plug nickle that if/when you find yourself in the presence of God those will not be your first three words.

 

[hobelim]

Yes, but like in any fairy tale, what is the lesson taught? What truth is conveyed?

Depends on the chapter and verse.

But who is to say there is any truth beyond the truth found in fairy tales?

Lets see what truth can be found first. Lets face it. As highly evolved, rational, and intelligent modern humans like to think of themselves here we are 5000 years later still trying with great difficulty to understand the identity of a talking snake in a fairy tale written for the children of who some people like to deride as ignorant superstitious nomads.


One truth beyond any truth found in fairy tales is that reality is much stranger.

 

[dblack]

How do you know? What supports your belief? And what if you're wong?

I can't speak for others, but if I am wrong I will look at god and simply say, "What the ****?"

I can bet a plug nickle that if/when you find yourself in the presence of God those will not be your first three words.

Isn't God supposed to be omnipresent?

 

[hobelim]

I can't speak for others, but if I am wrong I will look at god and simply say, "What the ****?"

I can bet a plug nickle that if/when you find yourself in the presence of God those will not be your first three words.

Isn't God supposed to be omnipresent?

If God is the God of the living and you do not perceive him, is it because God does not exist or is it that you do not qualify as the living?

The dwelling place of God, his sanctuary, is within the boundaries defined by the law. If you do not apply yourself to conform to the law, the way of life, then you will never evolve into a creature capable of perceiving God and will remain outside in the realm of existence, the wilderness, where God is absent and the lower beasts of the field devour one another.


Purify your mind and be refined and you will see God, not just now but when you look back you will see that he was always there and intimately involved throughout your entire life..