"Capitalism takes more people out of poverty than charity does" - Bono

[Tehon]

The problem with capitalism is that it requires good governance to regulate it. Which we ain't got, never have. A capitalistic economy is obviously going to be run by people, who as we all know are subject to the sins of avarice, greed, corruption, etc. Same as any other economic model, people are people. Which means if any economic system is to prosper and maximize justice and equal opportunity then your government has to be honest and vigilant. Which again we ain't got, never have. Our problem isn't capitalism, it's our gov't that plays favorites for political gain and enriches itself at the people's expense.

No, the problem is capitalism. It's capital accumulation that affords people the ability to buy government. And our politicians are culled from a society that worships individualism and an economic system that promotes rational self interest as the driver for propelling society forward. It's nice to think that we could send honorable people to represent us and many start off with good intentions but the whole system has already been set up for their failure.

This is nonsense, people can and do buy off gov't officials in ANY economic model. The excuse that "well he offered me SO MUCH money that I had to take it" is bullshit, and if we had an honest and unbiased MSM we could and should be going after anybody and everybody who has any part in gov't corruption. And that includes the big or little corps, unions, various associations, and of course the politicians. Laying it all on capitalism is poppycock, a crook is a crook in any gov't and in any style of economy, both the briber and the bribee

Crooks? Campaign donations are not criminal. Lobbying is not criminal. They are natural parts of our political process. We all have the right, we don't all have the means.


The state presents itself to us as the first ideological power over man. Society creates for itself an organ for the safeguarding of its common interests against internal and external attacks. This organ is the state power. Hardly come into being, this organ makes itself independent vis-a-vis society; and, indeed, the more so, the more it becomes the organ of a particular class, the more it directly enforces the supremacy of that class. The fight of the oppressed class against the ruling class becomes necessarily a political fight, a fight first of all against the political dominance of this class. The consciousness of the interconnection between this political struggle and its economic basis becomes dulled and can be lost altogether.
Ludwig Feuerbach and the End of Classical German Philosophy - Part 4: Marx

A politician who accepts bribes or donations in exchange for political favors is a crook.

Sure it is. None of what follows in the article below is criminal though. Capital accumulation represents political power over society to say nothing of its social power which doesn't require government.

Land Destroyer: Naming Names: Your Real Government
This is your real government; they transcend elected administrations, they permeate every political party, and they are responsible for nearly every aspect of the average American and European's way of life. When the "left" is carrying the torch for two "Neo-Con" wars, starting yet another based on the same lies, peddled by the same media outlets that told of Iraqi WMD's, the world has no choice, beyond profound cognitive dissonance, but to realize something is wrong.

What's wrong is a system completely controlled by a corporate-financier oligarchy with financial, media, and industrial empires that span the globe. If we do not change the fact that we are helplessly dependent on these corporations that regulate every aspect of our nation politically, and every aspect of our lives personally, nothing else will ever change.

 

[task0778]

The problem with capitalism is that it requires good governance to regulate it. Which we ain't got, never have. A capitalistic economy is obviously going to be run by people, who as we all know are subject to the sins of avarice, greed, corruption, etc. Same as any other economic model, people are people. Which means if any economic system is to prosper and maximize justice and equal opportunity then your government has to be honest and vigilant. Which again we ain't got, never have. Our problem isn't capitalism, it's our gov't that plays favorites for political gain and enriches itself at the people's expense.

No, the problem is capitalism. It's capital accumulation that affords people the ability to buy government. And our politicians are culled from a society that worships individualism and an economic system that promotes rational self interest as the driver for propelling society forward. It's nice to think that we could send honorable people to represent us and many start off with good intentions but the whole system has already been set up for their failure.

This is nonsense, people can and do buy off gov't officials in ANY economic model. The excuse that "well he offered me SO MUCH money that I had to take it" is bullshit, and if we had an honest and unbiased MSM we could and should be going after anybody and everybody who has any part in gov't corruption. And that includes the big or little corps, unions, various associations, and of course the politicians. Laying it all on capitalism is poppycock, a crook is a crook in any gov't and in any style of economy, both the briber and the bribee

Crooks? Campaign donations are not criminal. Lobbying is not criminal. They are natural parts of our political process. We all have the right, we don't all have the means.


The state presents itself to us as the first ideological power over man. Society creates for itself an organ for the safeguarding of its common interests against internal and external attacks. This organ is the state power. Hardly come into being, this organ makes itself independent vis-a-vis society; and, indeed, the more so, the more it becomes the organ of a particular class, the more it directly enforces the supremacy of that class. The fight of the oppressed class against the ruling class becomes necessarily a political fight, a fight first of all against the political dominance of this class. The consciousness of the interconnection between this political struggle and its economic basis becomes dulled and can be lost altogether.
Ludwig Feuerbach and the End of Classical German Philosophy - Part 4: Marx

A politician who accepts bribes or donations in exchange for political favors is a crook.

Sure it is. None of what follows in the article below is criminal though. Capital accumulation represents political power over society to say nothing of its social power which doesn't require government.

Land Destroyer: Naming Names: Your Real Government
This is your real government; they transcend elected administrations, they permeate every political party, and they are responsible for nearly every aspect of the average American and European's way of life. When the "left" is carrying the torch for two "Neo-Con" wars, starting yet another based on the same lies, peddled by the same media outlets that told of Iraqi WMD's, the world has no choice, beyond profound cognitive dissonance, but to realize something is wrong.

What's wrong is a system completely controlled by a corporate-financier oligarchy with financial, media, and industrial empires that span the globe. If we do not change the fact that we are helplessly dependent on these corporations that regulate every aspect of our nation politically, and every aspect of our lives personally, nothing else will ever change.

This is a total load of crap. Capital accumulation didn't do Hillary much good, did it? And to suggest it also has social power is likewise nonsense and it sure as hell is not responsible for nearly every aspect of the average American's life. What utter poppycock!

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

And then corporations, free to do whatever they wish with a weak central government, careen out of control and cause another market crash.
.

childish!! if this would happen the liberal would have an example of just one market crash. Notice that a liberal simply pretends it would happen and has no need of evidence or logical argument.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Capitalism is merely a system of production. As is Socialism.

thats hardly descriptive. Capitalism is when survival depends on raising your customers standard of living at the fastest possible rate while socialism is trying to do as little as possible while some sucker supports you.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

I think the first thing that needs be understood is that free markets are imaginary.

so are communist markets, and????????????

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Nothing like the opportunity to work for one’s survival and independence!

Cuba/Florida more or less proves that you are correct. China just switched to Republican capitalism and instantly eliminated 40% of the planets poverty. Where is the debate except in the mind of those who have to be described as having no minds at all.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Everyone is promoted to their level of incompetence.

If that was true we'd be going back to the iphone 6 rather than forward to the iphone 10. Get it? Once you know the Peter Principle you make sure to promote people who will be competent at their job.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

But what do you think of the impoverished working class in West Virginia right now?

without a magic wand capitalism is the best we can do for them. Thanks to capitalism though they are 1000 times better off than the working class poor in India. Do you understand?

 

[Tehon]

No, the problem is capitalism. It's capital accumulation that affords people the ability to buy government. And our politicians are culled from a society that worships individualism and an economic system that promotes rational self interest as the driver for propelling society forward. It's nice to think that we could send honorable people to represent us and many start off with good intentions but the whole system has already been set up for their failure.

This is nonsense, people can and do buy off gov't officials in ANY economic model. The excuse that "well he offered me SO MUCH money that I had to take it" is bullshit, and if we had an honest and unbiased MSM we could and should be going after anybody and everybody who has any part in gov't corruption. And that includes the big or little corps, unions, various associations, and of course the politicians. Laying it all on capitalism is poppycock, a crook is a crook in any gov't and in any style of economy, both the briber and the bribee

Crooks? Campaign donations are not criminal. Lobbying is not criminal. They are natural parts of our political process. We all have the right, we don't all have the means.


The state presents itself to us as the first ideological power over man. Society creates for itself an organ for the safeguarding of its common interests against internal and external attacks. This organ is the state power. Hardly come into being, this organ makes itself independent vis-a-vis society; and, indeed, the more so, the more it becomes the organ of a particular class, the more it directly enforces the supremacy of that class. The fight of the oppressed class against the ruling class becomes necessarily a political fight, a fight first of all against the political dominance of this class. The consciousness of the interconnection between this political struggle and its economic basis becomes dulled and can be lost altogether.
Ludwig Feuerbach and the End of Classical German Philosophy - Part 4: Marx

A politician who accepts bribes or donations in exchange for political favors is a crook.

Sure it is. None of what follows in the article below is criminal though. Capital accumulation represents political power over society to say nothing of its social power which doesn't require government.

Land Destroyer: Naming Names: Your Real Government
This is your real government; they transcend elected administrations, they permeate every political party, and they are responsible for nearly every aspect of the average American and European's way of life. When the "left" is carrying the torch for two "Neo-Con" wars, starting yet another based on the same lies, peddled by the same media outlets that told of Iraqi WMD's, the world has no choice, beyond profound cognitive dissonance, but to realize something is wrong.

What's wrong is a system completely controlled by a corporate-financier oligarchy with financial, media, and industrial empires that span the globe. If we do not change the fact that we are helplessly dependent on these corporations that regulate every aspect of our nation politically, and every aspect of our lives personally, nothing else will ever change.

This is a total load of crap. Capital accumulation didn't do Hillary much good, did it? And to suggest it also has social power is likewise nonsense and it sure as hell is not responsible for nearly every aspect of the average American's life. What utter poppycock!

Hillary didn't win the election. I wouldn't say it doesn't do her or her foundation good.

Every time one turns on the TV, listens to the radio, goes on facebook or is exposed to any type of media they are affected by the social power of capital accumulation. It can't be denied.

 

[Tehon]

I think the first thing that needs be understood is that free markets are imaginary.

so are communist markets, and????????????

I don't pretend they exist.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

I think the first thing that needs be understood is that free markets are imaginary.

so are communist markets, and????????????

I don't pretend they exist.

and I don't pretend that capitalist markets exist. So???

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Every time one turns on the TV, listens to the radio, goes on facebook or is exposed to any type of media they are affected by the social power of capital accumulation. It can't be denied.

so?? we have lots of news sources nowadays?? Is that supposed to be a revelation???

 

[Tehon]

Every time one turns on the TV, listens to the radio, goes on facebook or is exposed to any type of media they are affected by the social power of capital accumulation. It can't be denied.

so?? we have lots of news sources nowadays?? Is that supposed to be a revelation???

No, of course it is not a revelation. At least not to you or I.

Accumulated capital affords people the ability to move public opinion. That is social power. Pretty basic I think.

It's also instructive to understanding why markets are never free. Even if we were to remove government from them, they would be free to be controlled.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Accumulated capital affords people the ability to move public opinion. That is social power. Pretty basic I think.

.

Wrong of course, it affords people the ability to try to move public opinion against those who try to move it the other way.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

It's also instructive to understanding why markets are never free. Even if we were to remove government from them, they would be free to be controlled.

Yes, free to be controlled by customers who decide which product increases their standard of living most. Now do understand? The issue is do you want control in the hands of a lib communist Nazis or people in general. Now you have the basics with which to understand how freedom works.

 

[task0778]

This is nonsense, people can and do buy off gov't officials in ANY economic model. The excuse that "well he offered me SO MUCH money that I had to take it" is bullshit, and if we had an honest and unbiased MSM we could and should be going after anybody and everybody who has any part in gov't corruption. And that includes the big or little corps, unions, various associations, and of course the politicians. Laying it all on capitalism is poppycock, a crook is a crook in any gov't and in any style of economy, both the briber and the bribee

Crooks? Campaign donations are not criminal. Lobbying is not criminal. They are natural parts of our political process. We all have the right, we don't all have the means.


The state presents itself to us as the first ideological power over man. Society creates for itself an organ for the safeguarding of its common interests against internal and external attacks. This organ is the state power. Hardly come into being, this organ makes itself independent vis-a-vis society; and, indeed, the more so, the more it becomes the organ of a particular class, the more it directly enforces the supremacy of that class. The fight of the oppressed class against the ruling class becomes necessarily a political fight, a fight first of all against the political dominance of this class. The consciousness of the interconnection between this political struggle and its economic basis becomes dulled and can be lost altogether.
Ludwig Feuerbach and the End of Classical German Philosophy - Part 4: Marx

A politician who accepts bribes or donations in exchange for political favors is a crook.

Sure it is. None of what follows in the article below is criminal though. Capital accumulation represents political power over society to say nothing of its social power which doesn't require government.

Land Destroyer: Naming Names: Your Real Government
This is your real government; they transcend elected administrations, they permeate every political party, and they are responsible for nearly every aspect of the average American and European's way of life. When the "left" is carrying the torch for two "Neo-Con" wars, starting yet another based on the same lies, peddled by the same media outlets that told of Iraqi WMD's, the world has no choice, beyond profound cognitive dissonance, but to realize something is wrong.

What's wrong is a system completely controlled by a corporate-financier oligarchy with financial, media, and industrial empires that span the globe. If we do not change the fact that we are helplessly dependent on these corporations that regulate every aspect of our nation politically, and every aspect of our lives personally, nothing else will ever change.

This is a total load of crap. Capital accumulation didn't do Hillary much good, did it? And to suggest it also has social power is likewise nonsense and it sure as hell is not responsible for nearly every aspect of the average American's life. What utter poppycock!

Hillary didn't win the election. I wouldn't say it doesn't do her or her foundation good.

Every time one turns on the TV, listens to the radio, goes on facebook or is exposed to any type of media they are affected by the social power of capital accumulation. It can't be denied.

There is a difference between saying that the social power of capital accumulation could have an effect on society and saying we have

" a system completely controlled by a corporate-financier oligarchy with financial, media, and industrial empires that span the globe. If we do not change the fact that we are helplessly dependent on these corporations that regulate every aspect of our nation politically, and every aspect of our lives personally".

I believe you are vastly overstaying the social power of the big monied. And you are blaming capitalism for the negative aspects of human behavior that will surface under and economic system if that system is poorly governed. And to suggest that capitalism is wrong for generating the vast amounts of wealth that it does that in turn leads to more corruption is crazy. What are you suggesting, that we should all be so much poorer so the rich guys and big corps won't have as much money to influence the politicians? Do you really think that the super rich haven't ALWAYS influenced politicians and royalty since the getgo under ANY economic model? It's just a question of scale isn't it? To think that the people would be better off if there weren't so many rich guys also means everybody else won't be as well off either.

Take a look at most of those social democracies in Europe, they operate under CAPITALISM. But it is their mostly government that makes them different from us. Their gov't doesn't own or control the means of production, it's just taxed and regulated differently. However, they still have capitalistic economies.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

" a system completely controlled by a corporate-financier oligarchy with financial, media, and industrial empires that span the globe. If we do not change the fact that we are helplessly dependent on these corporations that regulate every aspect of our nation politically, and every aspect of oOur lives.

This is of course pathetic standard Marxist nonsense. Our corporations pay the highest corporate taxes in the world and no country gets a higher percentage of its tax revenue from the top 1% than America. They control every aspect of our lives by paying the highest taxes in the world?? That could make sense only to a brain-dead Marxist.
Tesla Controls our lives by desperately trying to make electric cars that we can afford before it goes bankrupt? Food stores control our lives by competing with each other to survive by giving us high-quality low cost food? Corporations are examples of saintliness. If Marxist corporations worked at all 120 million human souls would not have slowly start to death.

 

[Tehon]

Crooks? Campaign donations are not criminal. Lobbying is not criminal. They are natural parts of our political process. We all have the right, we don't all have the means.


The state presents itself to us as the first ideological power over man. Society creates for itself an organ for the safeguarding of its common interests against internal and external attacks. This organ is the state power. Hardly come into being, this organ makes itself independent vis-a-vis society; and, indeed, the more so, the more it becomes the organ of a particular class, the more it directly enforces the supremacy of that class. The fight of the oppressed class against the ruling class becomes necessarily a political fight, a fight first of all against the political dominance of this class. The consciousness of the interconnection between this political struggle and its economic basis becomes dulled and can be lost altogether.
Ludwig Feuerbach and the End of Classical German Philosophy - Part 4: Marx

A politician who accepts bribes or donations in exchange for political favors is a crook.

Sure it is. None of what follows in the article below is criminal though. Capital accumulation represents political power over society to say nothing of its social power which doesn't require government.

Land Destroyer: Naming Names: Your Real Government
This is your real government; they transcend elected administrations, they permeate every political party, and they are responsible for nearly every aspect of the average American and European's way of life. When the "left" is carrying the torch for two "Neo-Con" wars, starting yet another based on the same lies, peddled by the same media outlets that told of Iraqi WMD's, the world has no choice, beyond profound cognitive dissonance, but to realize something is wrong.

What's wrong is a system completely controlled by a corporate-financier oligarchy with financial, media, and industrial empires that span the globe. If we do not change the fact that we are helplessly dependent on these corporations that regulate every aspect of our nation politically, and every aspect of our lives personally, nothing else will ever change.

This is a total load of crap. Capital accumulation didn't do Hillary much good, did it? And to suggest it also has social power is likewise nonsense and it sure as hell is not responsible for nearly every aspect of the average American's life. What utter poppycock!

Hillary didn't win the election. I wouldn't say it doesn't do her or her foundation good.

Every time one turns on the TV, listens to the radio, goes on facebook or is exposed to any type of media they are affected by the social power of capital accumulation. It can't be denied.

There is a difference between saying that the social power of capital accumulation could have an effect on society and saying we have

" a system completely controlled by a corporate-financier oligarchy with financial, media, and industrial empires that span the globe. If we do not change the fact that we are helplessly dependent on these corporations that regulate every aspect of our nation politically, and every aspect of our lives personally".

I believe you are vastly overstaying the social power of the big monied. And you are blaming capitalism for the negative aspects of human behavior that will surface under and economic system if that system is poorly governed. And to suggest that capitalism is wrong for generating the vast amounts of wealth that it does that in turn leads to more corruption is crazy. What are you suggesting, that we should all be so much poorer so the rich guys and big corps won't have as much money to influence the politicians? Do you really think that the super rich haven't ALWAYS influenced politicians and royalty since the getgo under ANY economic model? It's just a question of scale isn't it? To think that the people would be better off if there weren't so many rich guys also means everybody else won't be as well off either.

Take a look at most of those social democracies in Europe, they operate under CAPITALISM. But it is their mostly government that makes them different from us. Their gov't doesn't own or control the means of production, it's just taxed and regulated differently. However, they still have capitalistic economies.

Capital accumulation is the power to command living labor and organize it into a system of production which is in itself a social relationship. I am not sure that I am overstating anything.

What with the pervasive individualist ideology and competing self interests government doesn't stand a chance against capital accumulation in America. So it succumbs to it. Just as you freely admit that the rich dominate practically every society going back through history. It's called class struggle, it is the mechanism that brought us capitalism and it is the same mechanism that will move society to the next productive social relationship.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

[QUOTE="Tehon, post: 18495784, .[/QUOTE]
The rich dominate every society going back through history?

In history people got rich because they were connected to the government which stole money from the people. Under capitalism you get rich by inventing products that poor people can use to greatly improve their lives . You don't get more civilized and just than when first generation rich Republicans invent smart phone supercomputers that 100 million Americans now can afford to carry in their pockets.
Take away the incentive to get rich and 120 million human beings slowly starve to death as they did in the USSR and Red China under Tehons Marxist communism .
It's always nice to have the Marxist death cult represented here .

 

[Penelope]

M....

I do not call people having to work 2 or more full-time jobs just to survive independence.......

Then you are lazy and infantile.

That is why blue collar workers, (you know who they are) are on SNAP more than white collars workers, who sit on their a..es.

Are you trying to say that white collar workers are lazy, comrade? Or that they don't often have to work more than one job as well?

Having personally known someone that couldn’t read and write and became a very successful private contractor, I know if someone has the drive they can succeed under most any circumstances.

One person, really. What kind of contractor?
Who did his proposals (bids) and write his bills?

Basic billings are fairly easy even for those of us who are or were functionally illiterate by societies standards. I have an Uncle that even today can but barely read and write that makes a lot more than many people with formal educations. He stills sells his services to high end contractors and their customers as he has talents that most will never have.

BTW, secretaries are a dime a dozen too that are more than willing to type up formal proposals for ya when ya need one.

So secretaries are a dime a dozen. Does he work for cash. What kind of contractor is he? You didn't say.