Capitalism is...Slavery; Democracy is Not

[thereisnospoon]

Confused about the fundamental conflicts regarding proper distribution of power?

"Listen, for example, to liberal economist Lester Thurow who writes that 'democracy and capitalism have very different beliefs about the proper distribution of power.

"'One believes in a completely equal distribution of political power, "one man [sic] one vote," while the other believes that it is the duty of the economically fit to drive the unfit out of business and into extinction. "Survival of the fittest" and inequalities in purchasing power are what capitalist efficiency is all about.

"'Individual profit comes first and firms become efficient to be rich. To put it in its starkest form, capitalism is perfectly compatible with slavery. Democracy is not.'"

Capitalism and Democracy Don't Mix Very Well ::: International Endowment for Democracy

socialism is slavery of the working class - capitalism sux - but it is the best thing going - we r not a democracy - we r a republic ! our republic sucks too - but it is the best thing going !

Stop bitching..If capitalism sucks and the republic sucks then please, there are about 197 other countries you can try. I'll help you pack.

 

[georgephillip]

Since the days of the East India Company the most successful capitalists have crushed competitors in order to monopolize markets. Most of the successful corporations have bribed government for tax favors and laws that encourage monopolies and cartels coming into existence.

Capitalists need customers and clients far more than they need authentic competition, imho.

Welcome to Human behaviour...Incentive...Commerce...And a Pure Democracy is any better? Son you have a problem...Wealth Envy for starters...and hatred for Capitalism a close second.

Wealth envy? Is that the best you can come up with? Sounds like Beck 101... anyone who doesn't believe in the CURRENT Form of Capitalism is just jealous. What I mean by "current form" is the extreme notion that "bigger is better". Look around you Chief...Mom and Pops are dying, being replaced by the Corporate. Small business is the answer, not the problem.

If you want small business to compete, you have to give them an even playing field. Health Care... Big business can afford it, Small business can't. If you were a newly married mechanic with a kid on the way... who would you rather work for? Joe's garage or Pep Boys? Or better yet.. who could you afford to work for. Both would probably give you the same wages or at least close enough... but Pep Boys offers Health Insurance... Joe's Garage can't.

That's the issue... that's the problem. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WEALTH ENVY!!!!!

You're what Lenin used to call a "useful idiot". I find it amusing that the original term was given by Vladimir Lenin to Communist Sympathizers in America. Now it can be fully attributed to you people who support a tyranny that is irrepressible in nature.

America's "useful idiots" support a corporate tyranny whose only logical end is the destruction of the individual. Lenin and Hitler (and JP Morgan) would be impressed.

 

[Liberty]

Welcome to Human behaviour...Incentive...Commerce...And a Pure Democracy is any better? Son you have a problem...Wealth Envy for starters...and hatred for Capitalism a close second.

Wealth envy? Is that the best you can come up with? Sounds like Beck 101... anyone who doesn't believe in the CURRENT Form of Capitalism is just jealous. What I mean by "current form" is the extreme notion that "bigger is better". Look around you Chief...Mom and Pops are dying, being replaced by the Corporate. Small business is the answer, not the problem.

If you want small business to compete, you have to give them an even playing field. Health Care... Big business can afford it, Small business can't. If you were a newly married mechanic with a kid on the way... who would you rather work for? Joe's garage or Pep Boys? Or better yet.. who could you afford to work for. Both would probably give you the same wages or at least close enough... but Pep Boys offers Health Insurance... Joe's Garage can't.

That's the issue... that's the problem. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WEALTH ENVY!!!!!

You're what Lenin used to call a "useful idiot". I find it amusing that the original term was given by Vladimir Lenin to Communist Sympathizers in America. Now it can be fully attributed to you people who support a tyranny that is irrepressible in nature.

America's "useful idiots" support a corporate tyranny whose only logical end is the destruction of the individual. Lenin and Hitler (and JP Morgan) would be impressed.

Democracy is less freedom than Communism, arguably. Seems to be you are the useful idiot. Why do you believe the majority should have the authority to vote away the rights of the minority exactly? How is this freedom?

 

[Mr.Nick]

Well it's a damn good thing then that America is not a Democracy but a Republic.

Under the very difinitions of the words a republic is a Democracy.

when will you people stop trying to change the facts?

Some argue Democracy and Republic are antithetical:

"It is important to keep in mind the difference between a Democracy and a Republic, as dissimilar forms of government.

"Understanding the difference is essential to comprehension of the fundamentals involved. It should be noted, in passing, that use of the word Democracy as meaning merely the popular type of government--that is, featuring genuinely free elections by the people periodically--is not helpful in discussing, as here, the difference between alternative and dissimilar forms of a popular government: a Democracy versus a Republic.

"This double meaning of Democracy--a popular-type government in general, as well as a specific form of popular government--needs to be made clear in any discussion, or writing, regarding this subject, for the sake of sound understanding.

"These two forms of government: Democracy and Republic, are not only dissimilar but antithetical, reflecting the sharp contrast between (a) The Majority Unlimited, in a Democracy, lacking any legal safeguard of the rights of The Individual and The Minority, and (b) The Majority Limited, in a Republic under a written Constitution safeguarding the rights of The Individual and The Minority; as we shall now see..."

An Important Distinction: Democracy versus Republic

There are several, the most notable is how our democracy works. We elect representatives, and we elect senators to represent us.

I will say the Tenth Amendment can be true democracy. You see it all the time with ballot propositions. I'm more satisfied with that approach anyways.

I will say, a true democracy is more realistic presently than ever before given our technology. At the same time voter fraud is bigger than ever... its a 20/20 there.

 

[thereisnospoon]

If we lived in a pure democracy, minorities would not have rights.

Why not?

In a pure democracy, it's majority rule. That's not a good system.

 

[Mr.Nick]

Wealth envy? Is that the best you can come up with? Sounds like Beck 101... anyone who doesn't believe in the CURRENT Form of Capitalism is just jealous. What I mean by "current form" is the extreme notion that "bigger is better". Look around you Chief...Mom and Pops are dying, being replaced by the Corporate. Small business is the answer, not the problem.

If you want small business to compete, you have to give them an even playing field. Health Care... Big business can afford it, Small business can't. If you were a newly married mechanic with a kid on the way... who would you rather work for? Joe's garage or Pep Boys? Or better yet.. who could you afford to work for. Both would probably give you the same wages or at least close enough... but Pep Boys offers Health Insurance... Joe's Garage can't.

That's the issue... that's the problem. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WEALTH ENVY!!!!!

You're what Lenin used to call a "useful idiot". I find it amusing that the original term was given by Vladimir Lenin to Communist Sympathizers in America. Now it can be fully attributed to you people who support a tyranny that is irrepressible in nature.

America's "useful idiots" support a corporate tyranny whose only logical end is the destruction of the individual. Lenin and Hitler (and JP Morgan) would be impressed.

Democracy is less freedom than Communism, arguably. Seems to be you are the useful idiot. Why do you believe the majority should have the authority to vote away the rights of the minority exactly? How is this freedom?

That can be blamed on gerrymandering...

That shit is totally fucked up.

If politicians and other policy makers could only follow the Bill of Rights we wouldn't have problems.

 

[Mr.Nick]

If we lived in a pure democracy, minorities would not have rights.

Why not?

In a pure democracy, it's majority rule. That's not a good system.

How the fuck is it not? also, thats why we have states. Once again the Tenth Amendment shines brilliantly.

 

[georgephillip]

Confused about the fundamental conflicts regarding proper distribution of power?

"Listen, for example, to liberal economist Lester Thurow who writes that 'democracy and capitalism have very different beliefs about the proper distribution of power.

"'One believes in a completely equal distribution of political power, "one man [sic] one vote," while the other believes that it is the duty of the economically fit to drive the unfit out of business and into extinction. "Survival of the fittest" and inequalities in purchasing power are what capitalist efficiency is all about.

"'Individual profit comes first and firms become efficient to be rich. To put it in its starkest form, capitalism is perfectly compatible with slavery. Democracy is not.'"

Capitalism and Democracy Don't Mix Very Well ::: International Endowment for Democracy

You post these musings about income inequality, wealth gaps, pro socialism and other things incompatible with liberty and freedom yet you have nothing of your own thoughts to offer. You post the opinions of other people and try to pass these opinions off as news or fact.
For a moment lets get past that. Now, in YOUR OWN WORDS state what type of system under which you wish to live.
DO not post replies containing any one else's words. No blogs, no op ed pieces.
Oh, you can stow the nonsense about living wage, unions and other nonsense. Those are not "systems" in the manner of capitalism or socialism.

This system you want me to construct must not contain nonsense like living wages or unions?

This system should not concern itself with income inequality or wealth gaps because such musings are incompatible with liberty and freedom.

Whose liberty and freedom, the Koch brothers?

Those of us who were born in the USA are just as indoctrinated as those born in the USSR were.

Except the Soviets relied on the brute force of blatant propaganda to enforce the will of its elites, and here advertising and PR shape many of our political opinions before we acquire the ability to read or even speak.

I believe a just economic system would incorporate elements of capitalism and socialism the exact mix of which could only be found through trial and error. Monopolies would have to be dissolved to allow fresh blood into the game. US prisons would have to become the new Club Med for many of America's richest 1%.

I don't think Republicans OR Democrats could reasonably be expected to lead the way, so I would begin by urging all voters to FLUSH as many Rs and Ds from DC as possible beginning in 2012.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Just curious, for the sake of argument, what would the US look like if there were no capitalism at all?

Replace 'capitalism' with 'economic liberty'

Is that code speak for third world crap hole?

more nonsense about "social credit".

 

[thereisnospoon]

in fact OP? What part of the Constitution scares *YOU* the Most?

Care to man up or is it going to be more diatribe nonsense?

Geo will post some bullshit from a liberal blog and pass it along as fact.

 

[georgephillip]

Taxation without representation is the purest form of slavery.
Bailout much ?

Quit whining and hand over your Social Security!

 

[Mr.Nick]

Confused about the fundamental conflicts regarding proper distribution of power?

"Listen, for example, to liberal economist Lester Thurow who writes that 'democracy and capitalism have very different beliefs about the proper distribution of power.

"'One believes in a completely equal distribution of political power, "one man [sic] one vote," while the other believes that it is the duty of the economically fit to drive the unfit out of business and into extinction. "Survival of the fittest" and inequalities in purchasing power are what capitalist efficiency is all about.

"'Individual profit comes first and firms become efficient to be rich. To put it in its starkest form, capitalism is perfectly compatible with slavery. Democracy is not.'"

Capitalism and Democracy Don't Mix Very Well ::: International Endowment for Democracy

You post these musings about income inequality, wealth gaps, pro socialism and other things incompatible with liberty and freedom yet you have nothing of your own thoughts to offer. You post the opinions of other people and try to pass these opinions off as news or fact.
For a moment lets get past that. Now, in YOUR OWN WORDS state what type of system under which you wish to live.
DO not post replies containing any one else's words. No blogs, no op ed pieces.
Oh, you can stow the nonsense about living wage, unions and other nonsense. Those are not "systems" in the manner of capitalism or socialism.

This system you want me to construct must not contain nonsense like living wages or unions?

This system should not concern itself with income inequality or wealth gaps because such musings are incompatible with liberty and freedom.

Whose liberty and freedom, the Koch brothers?

Those of us who were born in the USA are just as indoctrinated as those born in the USSR were.

Except the Soviets relied on the brute force of blatant propaganda to enforce the will of its elites, and here advertising and PR shape many of our political opinions before we acquire the ability to read or even speak.

I believe a just economic system would incorporate elements of capitalism and socialism the exact mix of which could only be found through trial and error. Monopolies would have to be dissolved to allow fresh blood into the game. US prisons would have to become the new Club Med for many of America's richest 1%.

I don't think Republicans OR Democrats could reasonably be expected to lead the way, so I would begin by urging all voters to FLUSH as many Rs and Ds from DC as possible beginning in 2012.

Here is an idea - learn economics then talk shit about "unions" and "living wages."

Economists use concepts like inflation, deflation, recession and depression etc for a reason, and that reason is that we're a competition based free market economy - which pretty much means every individuals wealth and production is related...

Do you not fucking realize that the less an employer pays you the less you can afford to consume? hence in theory hes taking the money out of his own pocket?

Don't you get it?? employer pays you - you pay employer???

Now when there are an abundance of peons and only x amount of jobs for peons, those jobs will PAY LESS because of supply and demand...

Unions on the other hand defy the law of supply and demand.. They just make demands, and guess what??? thats like breaking the laws of physics in economics - its not good - as a matter of fact it could shatter the universe.

I suppose my point is that ditch diggers will never get 250.00 an hour, why? because anyone can dig a ditch, meanwhile brain surgeons WILL get 250.00+ because not everyone can operate on a brain (including most liberals pun absolutely intended.).

 

[georgephillip]

Wealth envy? Is that the best you can come up with? Sounds like Beck 101... anyone who doesn't believe in the CURRENT Form of Capitalism is just jealous. What I mean by "current form" is the extreme notion that "bigger is better". Look around you Chief...Mom and Pops are dying, being replaced by the Corporate. Small business is the answer, not the problem.

If you want small business to compete, you have to give them an even playing field. Health Care... Big business can afford it, Small business can't. If you were a newly married mechanic with a kid on the way... who would you rather work for? Joe's garage or Pep Boys? Or better yet.. who could you afford to work for. Both would probably give you the same wages or at least close enough... but Pep Boys offers Health Insurance... Joe's Garage can't.

That's the issue... that's the problem. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WEALTH ENVY!!!!!

You're what Lenin used to call a "useful idiot". I find it amusing that the original term was given by Vladimir Lenin to Communist Sympathizers in America. Now it can be fully attributed to you people who support a tyranny that is irrepressible in nature.

America's "useful idiots" support a corporate tyranny whose only logical end is the destruction of the individual. Lenin and Hitler (and JP Morgan) would be impressed.

Democracy is less freedom than Communism, arguably. Seems to be you are the useful idiot. Why do you believe the majority should have the authority to vote away the rights of the minority exactly? How is this freedom?

Until recently the Bill of Rights seemed like adequate protection for minority rights in the US.

I'm not sure what you meant by "Democracy is less freedom than Communism", but I'm completely clear on how much freedom corporations offer with their one dollar; one vote version.

What's your choice?

One person; One vote or One share; One vote?

You know, two sheep and one wolf voting on what's for dinner wouldn't change the outcome much.

 

[georgephillip]

Democracy: One person; One vote.

Corporation: One dollar; One vote.

Which side are you on?

How we vote doesn't interest me that much. I'm almost never in the majority, and I'm not rich, so either one of those schemes is a potential threat if there aren't solid limitations on the kinds of things voters can force on the rest of us.

Are you comfortable with the choice offered between the two major parties?

I don't see how the influence of the military-security-congressional complex is altered much by choosing between the two.

If you're calling for more state and local limitations on what schemes can be imposed, that would certainly be an idea I would be willing to study. States Rights got a bad rep with my generation during the 60s; however, it's a strategy that could be useful today, particularly with regard to corporate charters.

 

[Liberty]

America's "useful idiots" support a corporate tyranny whose only logical end is the destruction of the individual. Lenin and Hitler (and JP Morgan) would be impressed.

Democracy is less freedom than Communism, arguably. Seems to be you are the useful idiot. Why do you believe the majority should have the authority to vote away the rights of the minority exactly? How is this freedom?

Until recently the Bill of Rights seemed like adequate protection for minority rights in the US.

I'm not sure what you meant by "Democracy is less freedom than Communism", but I'm completely clear on how much freedom corporations offer with their one dollar; one vote version.

What's your choice?

One person; One vote or One share; One vote?

You know, two sheep and one wolf voting on what's for dinner wouldn't change the outcome much.

A republic would be nice.

 

[georgephillip]

in fact OP? What part of the Constitution scares *YOU* the Most?

Care to man up or is it going to be more diatribe nonsense?

Geo will post some bullshit from a liberal blog and pass it along as fact.

If I've given you the impression that I believe everything I post is fact, I don't.

Many of the issues we discuss here have been batted around since before any of us were born.
There are many writers on the internet far more skilled and educated than I.
When I post one of their opinions I do it because they express my position more clearly than I can.
Not because I am sure their/my opinion qualifies as a fact.

There's no shortage of educated and skilled writers on the right.
After all, a political message board is for sharing opinions in order to discern the facts.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Without competition, capitalism would not flourish.
It serves little to no purpose for "the economically fit to drive the unfit out of business and into extinction".

Yet, you see it everywhere. Where shops and small business once flourished... The conglomerate has all but taken over... and they want MORE power(lower taxes, less regulation) to finish the job... and you want to let them.

Capitalists, especially the biggest, much prefer monopoly to competition.

Smaller competitors are bought out or their prices are undercut even if that means the larger capitalist temporarily forsakes maximum profit until his/her competition vanishes.

The Fall of 2008 offered a good example of how much Wall Street values competition. The big banks tore into each other in the same way they usually devour smaller competitors.

Next time promises to be worse.
For the taxpayers, of course, not for the bankers.

Just a minute...In order to have a deal, there must be two willing parties. One willing to buy another willing to sell.
Blockbuster video was famous for opening stores, undercutting the prices of competitors and trying to put them out of business. Ok, sounds evil. Fast froward 20 years. Blockbuster failed to keep up with technology and a changing customer base. Red Box, Netflix and on-line retailers such as Amazon, beat Blockbuster into the ground. That's good business by the former and bad business by the latter. At the end of the day, you keep up or you fade away. That's greatness!
The same argument can be made for tire tube makers. People like you lament the loss of a manufacturing industry because it represents the loss of union jobs. You cry "no fair"....So we should still be using inner tubes in our car tires even though tubeless tires have been the industry norm for 40 years?
France does this shit. That nation mandates business cannot lay off unneeded employees. There are people being paid by companies that do not really have a job.

 

[dblack]

Are you comfortable with the choice offered between the two major parties?

I think you know that I'm not. Out of curiosity, why do you ask?

If you're calling for more state and local limitations on what schemes can be imposed, that would certainly be an idea I would be willing to study. States Rights got a bad rep with my generation during the 60s; however, it's a strategy that could be useful today, particularly with regard to corporate charters.

I'm in favor of such limitations at all levels of government. Sadly, most state constitutions don't limit their governments to enumerated powers the way the federal constitution does. But I'd definitely like to see that changed.

 

[daveman]

Taxation without representation is the purest form of slavery.
Bailout much ?

Quit whining and hand over your Social Security!

I won't have to. You idiot leftists are doing your damnedest to see that it's gone before I'm old enough to collect.

 

[georgephillip]

You post these musings about income inequality, wealth gaps, pro socialism and other things incompatible with liberty and freedom yet you have nothing of your own thoughts to offer. You post the opinions of other people and try to pass these opinions off as news or fact.
For a moment lets get past that. Now, in YOUR OWN WORDS state what type of system under which you wish to live.
DO not post replies containing any one else's words. No blogs, no op ed pieces.
Oh, you can stow the nonsense about living wage, unions and other nonsense. Those are not "systems" in the manner of capitalism or socialism.

This system you want me to construct must not contain nonsense like living wages or unions?

This system should not concern itself with income inequality or wealth gaps because such musings are incompatible with liberty and freedom.

Whose liberty and freedom, the Koch brothers?

Those of us who were born in the USA are just as indoctrinated as those born in the USSR were.

Except the Soviets relied on the brute force of blatant propaganda to enforce the will of its elites, and here advertising and PR shape many of our political opinions before we acquire the ability to read or even speak.

I believe a just economic system would incorporate elements of capitalism and socialism the exact mix of which could only be found through trial and error. Monopolies would have to be dissolved to allow fresh blood into the game. US prisons would have to become the new Club Med for many of America's richest 1%.

I don't think Republicans OR Democrats could reasonably be expected to lead the way, so I would begin by urging all voters to FLUSH as many Rs and Ds from DC as possible beginning in 2012.

Here is an idea - learn economics then talk shit about "unions" and "living wages."

Economists use concepts like inflation, deflation, recession and depression etc for a reason, and that reason is that we're a competition based free market economy - which pretty much means every individuals wealth and production is related...

Do you not fucking realize that the less an employer pays you the less you can afford to consume? hence in theory hes taking the money out of his own pocket?

Don't you get it?? employer pays you - you pay employer???

Now when there are an abundance of peons and only x amount of jobs for peons, those jobs will PAY LESS because of supply and demand...

Unions on the other hand defy the law of supply and demand.. They just make demands, and guess what??? thats like breaking the laws of physics in economics - its not good - as a matter of fact it could shatter the universe.

I suppose my point is that ditch diggers will never get 250.00 an hour, why? because anyone can dig a ditch, meanwhile brain surgeons WILL get 250.00+ because not everyone can operate on a brain (including most liberals pun absolutely intended.).

Here's another idea - Social Credit

Classical economists claimed there were only three factors of production:
Land
Labor
Capital

CH Douglas, developer of Social Credit economic philosophy, agreed with those three factor but added one he considered even more primary, the cultural inheritance of society or "the knowledge, technique and processes that have been handed down to us incrementally from the origins of civilization."

Capitalist don't account for that last factor.

If they did billionaires would likely vanish and so would half the millionaires.
And every citizen would receive about $8 thousand per year as a birthright.
This would be in addition to any other income you earned.

Whether it came from digging ditches or brain surgery.