Zone1 Can you find the Flaw in Atheist Speaker Christopher Hitchens' Logic Here.

[alang1216]

It's not fair to say that. Maybe you aren't reading the OT properly.

Judaism generally views God as a personal God—an active, caring, and relational being involved in history and individual lives, rather than just an abstract, distant force. While God is infinite, transcendent, and incorporeal, He is also understood to be imminent, capable of responding to prayer, and engaging in a covenantal relationship with humanity.

Key Aspects of a Personal God in Judaism:

• Relationship and Covenant: God is seen as a loving creator and "Father" who acts within history, such as the covenant with Abraham and the Exodus.
• Involvement: The divine presence, or Shechinah, is believed to be present and responsive to individual prayers and actions.
• Attributes: God is described as having "personality"—including will, consciousness, and moral character—which allows for a relationship with creation.
• Distinction from Anthropomorphism: "Personal" does not mean God has a physical body; it refers to an inner, knowable, and moral essence rather than a human-like form, explained here on Chabad.

While some philosophical approaches emphasize a more rationalist, distant God, the mainstream Jewish tradition (including, but not limited to, Orthodox and Hasidic views) strongly emphasizes a personal connection.

Do you have any OT verses that show God isn't a personal God? Because these OT verses show the Israelites believe God is a personal God.

Old Testament verses reveal a personal God who actively relates to, rescues, and loves individuals, rather than a distant deity. Key verses highlight God as a provider (Psalm 16:5), protector (Psalm 18:2), and intimately acquainted with his people (Isaiah 43:1), often establishing personal covenants with them.

Key Old Testament Verses Describing a Personal God:

• God as Provider & Partner:
  • Psalm 16:5: "The Lord is the portion of my inheritance and my cup; You support my lot".
  • Genesis 17:7-8: God establishes a personal, everlasting covenant, saying, "I will be their God and they shall be my people".
• God as Protector & Deliverer:
  • Psalm 18:2: "The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge".
  • Psalm 27:1: "The Lord is my light and my salvation; Whom shall I fear?".
• God’s Intimate Knowledge & Care:
  • Isaiah 43:1: "Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have summoned you by name; you are mine".
  • Exodus 6:7: "I will take you to be my people, and I will be your God, and you shall know that I am the LORD your God".
• God’s Compassion & Justice:
  • Psalm 146:7-9: Describes God as one who sets prisoners free, lifts up those bowed down, and loves the righteous.

These verses illustrate a God who is actively involved in the lives of His people, providing refuge, and establishing close, lasting relationships.

Gotta love a book with every point of view in it to pick from:

Do you have any OT verses that show God isn't a personal God?

Comparison of Corporate vs. Individual Accountability

Judgment Source	Exodus 20:5: Punishing children for the iniquity of fathers to the 3rd/4th generation.	Romans 14:12: "So then each of us will give an account of himself to God".
Responsibility	Joshua 7: The entire nation is punished because of Achan's individual sin.	Galatians 6:5: "For each will have to bear his own load".
Identity	Exodus 19:6: Israel is chosen as a "holy nation" and a collective covenant people.	John 3:16: Salvation is offered to "whoever believes," regardless of national origin.
The New Heart	Deuteronomy 5:1: The Law is given to the "assembly" of Israel as an external code.	Jeremiah 31:33 / Heb 8:10: God writes His law on the individual’s heart.
Future Reward	2 Chronicles 7:14: Healing is promised to the "land" if the "people" repent.	2 Corinthians 5:10: Each must appear before the judgment seat to receive what is due for their own deeds.

[th]

Theme​

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Old Testament (Corporate/Tribal)​

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New Testament (Individual/Personal)​

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[alang1216]

Remove reward and punishment from the picture. It messes up the entire picture of God. Rather, we live an existence where to every action there is a reaction (or consequence). God is our guide through this maze of consequences. He wants the success of all, and for no one to fail.

No wonder so many fail to find God. The only kind of God they can imagine is a stern, unfair warden there to thwart them.

Are you kidding? The OT and NT are filled with both reward and punishment as in heaven and hell but not, apparently, the Gospel of Meriweather.

 

[alang1216]

Consider it is your own understanding that needs correcting. Our ancestors noted and recorded what was wrong with their own behavior--and the disasters that followed their own misbehavior. Sometimes it takes a disaster for people to look back on how they had been behaving and was in desperate need of improvement.

In Numbers 33:55-56, God warned that if the Israelites did not drive out the inhabitants, He would do to them what He intended to do to those nations.

 

[alang1216]

Is murder/taking innocent life right or wrong?
Is adultery right or wrong?
Is lying right or wrong?
Is stealing right or wrong?
Is wanting your neighbors possession(s) right or wrong?

Why is this so hard to grasp?

Maybe because Christians (and every other group) have been doing these things since day one.

 

[ding]

Gotta love a book with every point of view in it to pick from:

Do you have any OT verses that show God isn't a personal God?

Comparison of Corporate vs. Individual Accountability

Judgment Source	Exodus 20:5: Punishing children for the iniquity of fathers to the 3rd/4th generation.	Romans 14:12: "So then each of us will give an account of himself to God".
Responsibility	Joshua 7: The entire nation is punished because of Achan's individual sin.	Galatians 6:5: "For each will have to bear his own load".
Identity	Exodus 19:6: Israel is chosen as a "holy nation" and a collective covenant people.	John 3:16: Salvation is offered to "whoever believes," regardless of national origin.
The New Heart	Deuteronomy 5:1: The Law is given to the "assembly" of Israel as an external code.	Jeremiah 31:33 / Heb 8:10: God writes His law on the individual’s heart.
Future Reward	2 Chronicles 7:14: Healing is promised to the "land" if the "people" repent.	2 Corinthians 5:10: Each must appear before the judgment seat to receive what is due for their own deeds.

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Theme

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Old Testament (Corporate/Tribal)

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New Testament (Individual/Personal)

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I'm not seeing it. God does not actively punish or reward our behaviors. That would be a polytheistic belief, not a montheistic belief. Succesful behaviors NATURALLY lead to success just as failed behaviors NATURALLY lead to failure. God isn't pushing button or pulling levels like that. That would be a polytheistic belief.

I don't believe children are actively punished by God for the sins of their father and neither do you. I do believe that bad behaviors can be learned from the father and passed down to their children, just as I believe the opposite is true.

I don't believe an entire nation is ACTIVELY punished by God because of what someone does anymore than I believe children are ACTIVELY punished by God because of what their father does.

The belief that Israel is chosen to establish laws does not absolve individuals of the consequences of their bad choices.
You are really reaching to dismiss the overwhelming evidence that the God of Abraham is a personal God. They believed God is moralistic and providential.

 

[ding]

Are you kidding? The OT and NT are filled with both reward and punishment as in heaven and hell but not, apparently, the Gospel of Meriweather.

Actually it's not. It's filled with how to live life and how not to live life. And God isn't actively rewarding or punishing us in this life. That all happens organically. We are free to choose between good and evil. We are not free to avoid the consequences of those decisions. Succesful behaviors NATURALLY lead to success just as failed behaviors NATURALLY lead to failure. God isn't pushing button or pulling levels like that. That would be a polytheistic belief.

 

[Ace Nova]

The misconceptions corrected in his Jesus's name
Belief in God must be a free choice not forced by the threat of hell
The sin of one, Original sin, cant be extended to humanity. Christians claimed it can
There is no hell There is hell in Christianity
There is no devil. There is a devil in Christianity.

Belief in God must be a free choice not forced by the threat of hell

Agree

The sin of one, Original sin, cant be extended to humanity. Christians claimed it can

Often simplified as "Original Sin" - it is "The Fall" of mankind that is extended (really a part of) humanity. God gave us free will to choose to follow his instructions - if we lived by his instruction, we would live according to nature - never worrying about self awareness, living guilt free lives. Mankind went against God's instruction and chose to live a life not according to natural laws. We chose knowledge and awareness - and with that comes self awareness and "original sin" (Being aware of the capability to sin).

There is no hell There is hell in Christianity

Almost all major religions - including ancient Egypt, Cannanites, Native American, Hindu, far eastern religions etc - ALL share a concept of an "After World" or "Under World". "Hell" to Christians is the equivalent of being separated from God's grace - and it can begin on Earth and continue into the afterlife.

There is no devil. There is a devil in Christianity.

Almost all major religions speak of an "Adversary" or some sort of "Adversarial Spirit". "The Devil" to Christians is "The Adversary" Personally, I don't use a specific name - other than tongue-in-cheek gasps when something goes "wrong" - but spiritually, I am aware there is a contradictory force that can and does manifest itself at times - and that force can sometimes be used for benevolent "disciplinary reasons" - while seemingly malevolent at other times.

 

[ding]

In Numbers 33:55-56, God warned that if the Israelites did not drive out the inhabitants, He would do to them what He intended to do to those nations.

Again... that was them crafting narratives of historical events to teach leassons about the covenant, obedience, justice and their relationship with God.

It is explained here.

 

[ding]

Maybe because Christians (and every other group) have been doing these things since day one.

And your point is what?

 

[Woodznutz]

I think it fair to say that, in the OT, God was the God of the Hebrew people and would reward or punish everyone in the tribe. In Christianity, God is a God of the individual and rewards or punishments are individual ones. It is almost like a whole new theology.

Jesus (himself) was "sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel", to whom he also sent his disciples. However, he did say that the gospel would be preached to every nation.

 

[Hafar1014]

Belief in God must be a free choice not forced by the threat of hell

Agree

The sin of one, Original sin, cant be extended to humanity. Christians claimed it can

Often simplified as "Original Sin" - it is "The Fall" of mankind that is extended (really a part of) humanity. God gave us free will to choose to follow his instructions - if we lived by his instruction, we would live according to nature - never worrying about self awareness, living guilt free lives. Mankind went against God's instruction and chose to live a life not according to natural laws. We chose knowledge and awareness - and with that comes self awareness and "original sin" (Being aware of the capability to sin).

There is no hell There is hell in Christianity

Almost all major religions - including ancient Egypt, Cannanites, Native American, Hindu, far eastern religions etc - ALL share a concept of an "After World" or "Under World". "Hell" to Christians is the equivalent of being separated from God's grace - and it can begin on Earth and continue into the afterlife.

There is no devil. There is a devil in Christianity.

Almost all major religions speak of an "Adversary" or some sort of "Adversarial Spirit". "The Devil" to Christians is "The Adversary" Personally, I don't use a specific name - other than tongue-in-cheek gasps when something goes "wrong" - but spiritually, I am aware there is a contradictory force that can and does manifest itself at times - and that force can sometimes be used for benevolent "disciplinary reasons" - while seemingly malevolent at other times.

There is no original sin or fall of man in Genesis. Its Gods moral teaching of man and the trial for mans freedom. God states the sin of one cant be extended to humanity as whole. There is no hell in Genesis. Hell was created as threat to force obedience. The meaning of Genesis is free will and morals and the free choice to come to God which Adam did accomplish. There was no sin

 

[Hafar1014]

There is no tree. And your logic is supremely flawed. There are all kinds of sweet things in life. Are you suggesting that they are all there to tempt us? Because it seems to me the sweet things in life are meant to be enjoyed.

Your theology is flawed. God does not tempt his creatures. That is an idiotic thing to believe. According to your beliefs, God is intentionally trying to sabatoge us. Why would God do that?

Where did the fruit come from." The tree that is in the midst of the garden was forbidden neither can you touch it or you will surely die" all other fruit can be eaten.
What kind of BS bible are you reading. A transposed translation. Mine is in Hebrew.
They are supposed to eat the fruit and notice they didnt die. It was Gods plan they eat the fruit then the trial for mans freedom begins
Get a real bible

 

[Hafar1014]

No. That's incorrect.

According to your theology God is ACTIVELY tempting his creatures. Right?

Satan means accuser or opposer in Hebrew literally.
God tempted Adam and Eve to disobey Him and eat the fruit so the rial of mans freedom could begin. If you had real bible and could read Hebrew yu could understand what it means. But then you would have problem because what you believe int in there

 

[ding]

Gotta love a book with every point of view in it to pick from:

I think it's telling the way we both interpret passages consistently. Your interpretations consistently paint God in the worst light possible. My interpretations consistently paint God in the best light possible.

The question is why? Why do you paint God in the worst light possible and why do I paint God in the best light possible? I can't speak for you but I can speak for myself. I paint God in the best light possible because I believe God created existence. I see existence as incredibly complicated, interconnected and wonderful. I can't imagine the creator of such beauty being a dick. Why do you do it?

 

[ding]

Where did the fruit come from." The tree that is in the midst of the garden was forbidden neither can you touch it or you will surely die" all other fruit can be eaten.
What kind of BS bible are you reading. A transposed translation. Mine is in Hebrew.
They are supposed to eat the fruit and notice they didnt die. It was Gods plan they eat the fruit then the trial for mans freedom begins
Get a real bible

You are jerking yourself off. Why do you believe God would tempt his creatures to fail? Why would God do that?

 

[Hafar1014]

I understand you couldn't explain it when I asked you about it in post #289. So feel free to explain how morals must have context. I'm all ears.

Killing is both moral and immoral depending on the context
Self defense is moral when serious bodily injury of death is imminent. IN lawI xcan use deadly force to stop rape or kidnapping
Imoral when committing a crime

Morality is deeply intertwined with context, as ethical judgments are often shaped by specific situations, relationships, and cultural frameworks rather than just abstract, universal principles. While certain moral foundations like fairness or harm avoidance may be universal, how they are applied depends on factors like who is involved, the setting, and social norms.
National Institutes of Health (NIH) | (.gov) +4
Key Aspects of Morality and Context:

• Context-Dependent Judgments: Moral evaluations change based on the specific actors, motives, and circumstances involved (e.g., helping a sibling vs. a stranger).
• Social & Cultural Influence: Morality is considered the "glue" that binds society, but it is often adapted to fit local cultural, historical, or environmental settings.
• "Moral Activation": Specific contexts can "activate" certain moral values, making people behave differently depending on the social situation.
• Subjective vs. Objective: While some, like relativists, believe morality is entirely contingent on local context, others, like objectivists, argue for non-contingent, universal moral principles that exist across all contexts.
• Psychological Factors: People often prioritize their own moral duties within social relationships (e.g., family loyalty) over universal fairness, which can lead to selective moral judgments.
  National Institutes of Health (NIH) | (.gov) +4

Understanding the context—including who, what, where, when, and why—is essential for grasping how moral decisions are made and

 

[Hafar1014]

How so?

Morality is deeply intertwined with context, as ethical judgments are often shaped by specific situations, relationships, and cultural frameworks rather than just abstract, universal principles. While certain moral foundations like fairness or harm avoidance may be universal, how they are applied depends on factors like who is involved, the setting, and social norms.
National Institutes of Health (NIH) | (.gov) +4
Key Aspects of Morality and Context:

• Context-Dependent Judgments: Moral evaluations change based on the specific actors, motives, and circumstances involved (e.g., helping a sibling vs. a stranger).
• Social & Cultural Influence: Morality is considered the "glue" that binds society, but it is often adapted to fit local cultural, historical, or environmental settings.
• "Moral Activation": Specific contexts can "activate" certain moral values, making people behave differently depending on the social situation.
• Subjective vs. Objective: While some, like relativists, believe morality is entirely contingent on local context, others, like objectivists, argue for non-contingent, universal moral principles that exist across all contexts.
• Psychological Factors: People often prioritize their own moral duties within social relationships (e.g., family loyalty) over universal fairness, which can lead to selective moral judgments.
  National Institutes of Health (NIH) | (.gov) +4

Understanding the context—including who, what, where, when, and why—is essential for grasping how moral decisions are made and

 

[ding]

Satan means accuser or opposer in Hebrew literally.
God tempted Adam and Eve to disobey Him and eat the fruit so the rial of mans freedom could begin. If you had real bible and could read Hebrew yu could understand what it means. But then you would have problem because what you believe int in there

In YOUR theology, Satan works for God. Satan is doing God's work. Why would God want us to fail? Your theology is fucked up. It's illogical. You are making God out to be a dick.

 

[ding]

God tempted Adam and Eve to disobey Him and eat the fruit so the rial of mans freedom could begin.

It's an allegorical account. Man was always going to be what man is.

 

[ding]

Killing is both moral and immoral depending on the context

Nope. The highest standard is not to kill at all. It seems you have normalized your deviance from the standard.

You can argue killing is the lesser of two evils but you cannot argue killing is moral. That's how evil gets a toehold. Your theology is fucked up.