Can A President Pardon Himself?

Jake Winker Frogen

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It is interesting, a president can pardon even people in investigations which possibly involve him, as Bush Sr. did with Iran Contra. Bush pardoned convicted members of the former Reagan administration and even Casper Weinberger who was indicted on two counts of perjury and one count of obstruction of justice.

A trial that may have provided evidence Bush as Vice President under Reagan knew all about Iran Contra and facilitated it.
Bush pardoned Weinberger before his trial.

Thus ending the trial.

So a President can use pardon as protection from legal prosecution, not only as clemency to the convicted.

Trump has a lot of power to pardon.

If he loses the election can he pardon himself?

Basic Western rule of law since the rise of an independent judiciary and legislative bodies would argue no, a self pardon is playing judge over oneself and hence an absolutist power not consistent with checks and balances.

But the constitution is silent on the subject.

Except it bans a President pardoning himself during impeachment. That could be construed to mean he cannot be judge over his own actions in this regard?

Or if one is a by the letter originalist it can be seen as only applying to impeachment?

Because I reckon Trump is going to issue a broad but vague personal pardon for everything he has ever done up to that point.

The Supreme Court is in for a fun time.
 

Snouter

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Jake, please take an English 101 class or read an old book or something and learn who to develop a paragraph.
 
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Jake Winker Frogen

Jake Winker Frogen

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I am more Jazz than Classical, I pause when I pause.

Some times the note not played is the most important note.

All Jazz greats know that.

And now here is Itchy Ears Anderson, 1963, a night at the I DO NOT KNOW WHERE I AM CLUB on the I Need A Drink record label with "Where Are The Q Tips?"
 

TheParser

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Oh, yes!

The time between his humiliating defeat and January 20 will be "interesting."

Will he pardon himself?

Will he resign in order for a President Pence to pardon him?

I know one thing: He will NOT be going to the inauguration. His personal safety could not be guaranteed because of the mobs who will be there to see the swearing in of de facto President Harris.
 
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Jake Winker Frogen

Jake Winker Frogen

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Oh, yes!

The time between his humiliating defeat and January 20 will be "interesting."

Will he pardon himself?

Will he resign in order for a President Pence to pardon him?

I know one thing: He will NOT be going to the inauguration. His personal safety could not be guaranteed because of the mobs who will be there to see the swearing in of de facto President Harris.
Trump is bold, I will give him that.

If he loses there will be a tidal wave of pardons of people he wishes to protect from prosecution (and I am making no judgements on whether they should be prosecuted or not, that is a case by case thing) but I reckon he will protect an entire host from possible prosecution.

And I think him bold enough to try and protect himself too with a pardon without leaving it to Pence.

This will be one of the most important Supreme Court cases in the countries history.

And the constitution leaves room to go either way.

The Founders were often inscrutable bastards.
 

SmokeALib

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It is interesting, a president can pardon even people in investigations which possibly involve him, as Bush Sr. did with Iran Contra. Bush pardoned convicted members of the former Reagan administration and even Casper Weinberger who was indicted on two counts of perjury and one count of obstruction of justice.

A trial that may have provided evidence Bush as Vice President under Reagan knew all about Iran Contra and facilitated it.
Bush pardoned Weinberger before his trial.

Thus ending the trial.

So a President can use pardon as protection from legal prosecution, not only as clemency to the convicted.

Trump has a lot of power to pardon.

If he loses the election can he pardon himself?

Basic Western rule of law since the rise of an independent judiciary and legislative bodies would argue no, a self pardon is playing judge over oneself and hence an absolutist power not consistent with checks and balances.

But the constitution is silent on the subject.

Except it bans a President pardoning himself during impeachment. That could be construed to mean he cannot be judge over his own actions in this regard?

Or if one is a by the letter originalist it can be seen as only applying to impeachment?

Because I reckon Trump is going to issue a broad but vague personal pardon for everything he has ever done up to that point.

The Supreme Court is in for a fun time.
Pardon himself from what? MAGA?
 
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Jake Winker Frogen

Jake Winker Frogen

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It is interesting, a president can pardon even people in investigations which possibly involve him, as Bush Sr. did with Iran Contra. Bush pardoned convicted members of the former Reagan administration and even Casper Weinberger who was indicted on two counts of perjury and one count of obstruction of justice.

A trial that may have provided evidence Bush as Vice President under Reagan knew all about Iran Contra and facilitated it.
Bush pardoned Weinberger before his trial.

Thus ending the trial.

So a President can use pardon as protection from legal prosecution, not only as clemency to the convicted.

Trump has a lot of power to pardon.

If he loses the election can he pardon himself?

Basic Western rule of law since the rise of an independent judiciary and legislative bodies would argue no, a self pardon is playing judge over oneself and hence an absolutist power not consistent with checks and balances.

But the constitution is silent on the subject.

Except it bans a President pardoning himself during impeachment. That could be construed to mean he cannot be judge over his own actions in this regard?

Or if one is a by the letter originalist it can be seen as only applying to impeachment?

Because I reckon Trump is going to issue a broad but vague personal pardon for everything he has ever done up to that point.

The Supreme Court is in for a fun time.
Pardon himself from what? MAGA?
No that is a T shirt marketing opportunity.

From tax investigations and his business dealings while in the presidency.

He did not go blind trust. That usually protects Presidents from business dealings they profit from while in the Presidency.

The courts are loathe to move on those with a sitting President, they will move if they find illegal dealings when he leaves office.

Whether he is guilty of breaking the law or not in these or other areas, I think Trump is the type to just say "we are not going there, I am pardoning myself."
 

SmokeALib

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It is interesting, a president can pardon even people in investigations which possibly involve him, as Bush Sr. did with Iran Contra. Bush pardoned convicted members of the former Reagan administration and even Casper Weinberger who was indicted on two counts of perjury and one count of obstruction of justice.

A trial that may have provided evidence Bush as Vice President under Reagan knew all about Iran Contra and facilitated it.
Bush pardoned Weinberger before his trial.

Thus ending the trial.

So a President can use pardon as protection from legal prosecution, not only as clemency to the convicted.

Trump has a lot of power to pardon.

If he loses the election can he pardon himself?

Basic Western rule of law since the rise of an independent judiciary and legislative bodies would argue no, a self pardon is playing judge over oneself and hence an absolutist power not consistent with checks and balances.

But the constitution is silent on the subject.

Except it bans a President pardoning himself during impeachment. That could be construed to mean he cannot be judge over his own actions in this regard?

Or if one is a by the letter originalist it can be seen as only applying to impeachment?

Because I reckon Trump is going to issue a broad but vague personal pardon for everything he has ever done up to that point.

The Supreme Court is in for a fun time.
Pardon himself from what? MAGA?
No that is a T shirt marketing opportunity.

From tax investigations and his business dealings while in the presidency.

He did not go blind trust.

The courts are loathe to move on those with a sitting President, they will move if they find illegal dealings when he leaves office.

Whether he is guilty of breaking the law or not in these or other areas, I think Trump is the type to just say "we are not going there, I am pardoning myself."
Loathe to move on a sitting president? Give me a fucking break. You ain't got nothing but whining and crying.
 

kyzr

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It is interesting, a president can pardon even people in investigations which possibly involve him, as Bush Sr. did with Iran Contra. Bush pardoned convicted members of the former Reagan administration and even Casper Weinberger who was indicted on two counts of perjury and one count of obstruction of justice.

A trial that may have provided evidence Bush as Vice President under Reagan knew all about Iran Contra and facilitated it.
Bush pardoned Weinberger before his trial.

Thus ending the trial.

So a President can use pardon as protection from legal prosecution, not only as clemency to the convicted.

Trump has a lot of power to pardon.

If he loses the election can he pardon himself?

Basic Western rule of law since the rise of an independent judiciary and legislative bodies would argue no, a self pardon is playing judge over oneself and hence an absolutist power not consistent with checks and balances.

But the constitution is silent on the subject.

Except it bans a President pardoning himself during impeachment. That could be construed to mean he cannot be judge over his own actions in this regard?

Or if one is a by the letter originalist it can be seen as only applying to impeachment?

Because I reckon Trump is going to issue a broad but vague personal pardon for everything he has ever done up to that point.

The Supreme Court is in for a fun time.
Pardon himself from what? MAGA?
Exactly. There are no Trump crimes/indictments to address with a "pardon".
The FBI is investigating the Bidens for money laundering and influence peddling and illegal lobbying and....
 

candycorn

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It is interesting, a president can pardon even people in investigations which possibly involve him, as Bush Sr. did with Iran Contra. Bush pardoned convicted members of the former Reagan administration and even Casper Weinberger who was indicted on two counts of perjury and one count of obstruction of justice.

A trial that may have provided evidence Bush as Vice President under Reagan knew all about Iran Contra and facilitated it.
Bush pardoned Weinberger before his trial.

Thus ending the trial.

So a President can use pardon as protection from legal prosecution, not only as clemency to the convicted.

Trump has a lot of power to pardon.

If he loses the election can he pardon himself?

Basic Western rule of law since the rise of an independent judiciary and legislative bodies would argue no, a self pardon is playing judge over oneself and hence an absolutist power not consistent with checks and balances.

But the constitution is silent on the subject.

Except it bans a President pardoning himself during impeachment. That could be construed to mean he cannot be judge over his own actions in this regard?

Or if one is a by the letter originalist it can be seen as only applying to impeachment?

Because I reckon Trump is going to issue a broad but vague personal pardon for everything he has ever done up to that point.

The Supreme Court is in for a fun time.
I'm sure he'll try. If the court says that he can, its probably a sign that our government has lost touch with reality. The idea that the government would recognize that a person could commit a crime and then issue a pardon to exonerate themselves is crazy.
 
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Jake Winker Frogen

Jake Winker Frogen

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It is interesting, a president can pardon even people in investigations which possibly involve him, as Bush Sr. did with Iran Contra. Bush pardoned convicted members of the former Reagan administration and even Casper Weinberger who was indicted on two counts of perjury and one count of obstruction of justice.

A trial that may have provided evidence Bush as Vice President under Reagan knew all about Iran Contra and facilitated it.
Bush pardoned Weinberger before his trial.

Thus ending the trial.

So a President can use pardon as protection from legal prosecution, not only as clemency to the convicted.

Trump has a lot of power to pardon.

If he loses the election can he pardon himself?

Basic Western rule of law since the rise of an independent judiciary and legislative bodies would argue no, a self pardon is playing judge over oneself and hence an absolutist power not consistent with checks and balances.

But the constitution is silent on the subject.

Except it bans a President pardoning himself during impeachment. That could be construed to mean he cannot be judge over his own actions in this regard?

Or if one is a by the letter originalist it can be seen as only applying to impeachment?

Because I reckon Trump is going to issue a broad but vague personal pardon for everything he has ever done up to that point.

The Supreme Court is in for a fun time.
I'm sure he'll try. If the court says that he can, its probably a sign that our government has lost touch with reality. The idea that the government would recognize that a person could commit a crime and then issue a pardon to exonerate themselves is crazy.

It is a greater power than that, the President can pardon one from a trial that has not even occurred yet, as Bush Sr. did in the Weinberger case.

So Trump could just say "I do not even want to be investigated on the following issues" and hand down a broad pardon to himself just as he loves to throw around executive orders like candy at Halloween.

And to be honest, I have no clue where the Supreme Court would land on this one?

But it is going to have implications for the nature of Presidential power in the USA long after Trump
 

candycorn

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It is interesting, a president can pardon even people in investigations which possibly involve him, as Bush Sr. did with Iran Contra. Bush pardoned convicted members of the former Reagan administration and even Casper Weinberger who was indicted on two counts of perjury and one count of obstruction of justice.

A trial that may have provided evidence Bush as Vice President under Reagan knew all about Iran Contra and facilitated it.
Bush pardoned Weinberger before his trial.

Thus ending the trial.

So a President can use pardon as protection from legal prosecution, not only as clemency to the convicted.

Trump has a lot of power to pardon.

If he loses the election can he pardon himself?

Basic Western rule of law since the rise of an independent judiciary and legislative bodies would argue no, a self pardon is playing judge over oneself and hence an absolutist power not consistent with checks and balances.

But the constitution is silent on the subject.

Except it bans a President pardoning himself during impeachment. That could be construed to mean he cannot be judge over his own actions in this regard?

Or if one is a by the letter originalist it can be seen as only applying to impeachment?

Because I reckon Trump is going to issue a broad but vague personal pardon for everything he has ever done up to that point.

The Supreme Court is in for a fun time.
I'm sure he'll try. If the court says that he can, its probably a sign that our government has lost touch with reality. The idea that the government would recognize that a person could commit a crime and then issue a pardon to exonerate themselves is crazy.

It is a greater power than that, the President can pardon one from a trial that has not even occurred yet, as Bush Sr. did in the Weinberger case.

So Trump could just say "I do not even want to be investigated on the following issues" and hand down a broad pardon to himself just as he loves to throw around executive orders like candy at Halloween.

And to be honest, I have no clue where the Supreme Court would land on this one?

But it is going to have implications for the nature of Presidential power in the USA long after Trump
I couldn't believe that the Court upheld Obamacare. I'm happy they did but I couldn't believe it.

Still when Bush 41 did it, he was pardoning another person so there is a difference.
 

Snouter

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I am more Jazz than Classical, I pause when I pause.
Some times the note not played is the most important note. All Jazz greats know that.
I think some jazz legends said "jazz" was actually modern day "classical." If you study Ted Greene, you might realize that! Not playing a note on a beat means you don't know what the mode is.
 

Mad_Jack_Flint

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It is interesting, a president can pardon even people in investigations which possibly involve him, as Bush Sr. did with Iran Contra. Bush pardoned convicted members of the former Reagan administration and even Casper Weinberger who was indicted on two counts of perjury and one count of obstruction of justice.

A trial that may have provided evidence Bush as Vice President under Reagan knew all about Iran Contra and facilitated it.
Bush pardoned Weinberger before his trial.

Thus ending the trial.

So a President can use pardon as protection from legal prosecution, not only as clemency to the convicted.

Trump has a lot of power to pardon.

If he loses the election can he pardon himself?

Basic Western rule of law since the rise of an independent judiciary and legislative bodies would argue no, a self pardon is playing judge over oneself and hence an absolutist power not consistent with checks and balances.

But the constitution is silent on the subject.

Except it bans a President pardoning himself during impeachment. That could be construed to mean he cannot be judge over his own actions in this regard?

Or if one is a by the letter originalist it can be seen as only applying to impeachment?

Because I reckon Trump is going to issue a broad but vague personal pardon for everything he has ever done up to that point.

The Supreme Court is in for a fun time.
Pardon himself from what? MAGA?
Exactly. There are no Trump crimes/indictments to address with a "pardon".
The FBI is investigating the Bidens for money laundering and influence peddling and illegal lobbying and....
I am guessing the OP is suggesting that Donald John Trump is being investigated by the State of New York and that is why they asked this asinine question...

Now do you want to pretend no investigation is going on at State level?


 
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Jake Winker Frogen

Jake Winker Frogen

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I am more Jazz than Classical, I pause when I pause.
Some times the note not played is the most important note. All Jazz greats know that.
I think some jazz legends said "jazz" was actually modern day "classical." If you study Ted Greene, you might realize that! Not playing a note on a beat means you don't know what the mode is.


I love Jazz, know a lot about the history of it, listen to it every day. Jazz certainly takes the talent and dedication of a classical musician to play it, but jazz musicians do not paint by numbers follow the rules, they break them.

When you are improvising with others, you have to know when to blow and when not to.

Proper.
 
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Jake Winker Frogen

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This is true of all art I suppose.

As Picasso said.

"Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist."
 
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Jake Winker Frogen

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I suppose this is one reason so few English teachers have ever become great writers?
 

Snouter

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I love Jazz, know a lot about the history of it, listen to it every day. Jazz certainly takes the talent and dedication of a classical musician to play it, but jazz musicians do not paint by numbers follow the rules, they break them.
Jazz musicians actually do follow the "rules" in terms of modes of Major, modes of Melodic Minor, Minor Harmonic, and Half Whole Diminished (all possible chords), not including Holdsworth voicings. "Breaking the rules" will sound like a Frank Zappa mess.
 

kyzr

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It is interesting, a president can pardon even people in investigations which possibly involve him, as Bush Sr. did with Iran Contra. Bush pardoned convicted members of the former Reagan administration and even Casper Weinberger who was indicted on two counts of perjury and one count of obstruction of justice.

A trial that may have provided evidence Bush as Vice President under Reagan knew all about Iran Contra and facilitated it.
Bush pardoned Weinberger before his trial.

Thus ending the trial.

So a President can use pardon as protection from legal prosecution, not only as clemency to the convicted.

Trump has a lot of power to pardon.

If he loses the election can he pardon himself?

Basic Western rule of law since the rise of an independent judiciary and legislative bodies would argue no, a self pardon is playing judge over oneself and hence an absolutist power not consistent with checks and balances.

But the constitution is silent on the subject.

Except it bans a President pardoning himself during impeachment. That could be construed to mean he cannot be judge over his own actions in this regard?

Or if one is a by the letter originalist it can be seen as only applying to impeachment?

Because I reckon Trump is going to issue a broad but vague personal pardon for everything he has ever done up to that point.

The Supreme Court is in for a fun time.
Pardon himself from what? MAGA?
Exactly. There are no Trump crimes/indictments to address with a "pardon".
The FBI is investigating the Bidens for money laundering and influence peddling and illegal lobbying and....
I am guessing the OP is suggesting that Donald John Trump is being investigated by the State of New York and that is why they asked this asinine question...

Now do you want to pretend no investigation is going on at State level?
So its another democrat fishing expedition, not anything illegal.
I'm sure Trump has more than a few layers of protection from any legal issues, even at the state level.
 

Mad_Jack_Flint

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It is interesting, a president can pardon even people in investigations which possibly involve him, as Bush Sr. did with Iran Contra. Bush pardoned convicted members of the former Reagan administration and even Casper Weinberger who was indicted on two counts of perjury and one count of obstruction of justice.

A trial that may have provided evidence Bush as Vice President under Reagan knew all about Iran Contra and facilitated it.
Bush pardoned Weinberger before his trial.

Thus ending the trial.

So a President can use pardon as protection from legal prosecution, not only as clemency to the convicted.

Trump has a lot of power to pardon.

If he loses the election can he pardon himself?

Basic Western rule of law since the rise of an independent judiciary and legislative bodies would argue no, a self pardon is playing judge over oneself and hence an absolutist power not consistent with checks and balances.

But the constitution is silent on the subject.

Except it bans a President pardoning himself during impeachment. That could be construed to mean he cannot be judge over his own actions in this regard?

Or if one is a by the letter originalist it can be seen as only applying to impeachment?

Because I reckon Trump is going to issue a broad but vague personal pardon for everything he has ever done up to that point.

The Supreme Court is in for a fun time.
Pardon himself from what? MAGA?
Exactly. There are no Trump crimes/indictments to address with a "pardon".
The FBI is investigating the Bidens for money laundering and influence peddling and illegal lobbying and....
I am guessing the OP is suggesting that Donald John Trump is being investigated by the State of New York and that is why they asked this asinine question...

Now do you want to pretend no investigation is going on at State level?
So its another democrat fishing expedition, not anything illegal.
I'm sure Trump has more than a few layers of protection from any legal issues, even at the state level.
How do you know if he is guilty or innocent until all evidence is shown?

Trump has broken the law numerous times and paid the fines that were required of him, so I am not surprised that he is being investigated...

So as you proclaim it is a fishing expedition the fact is Trump and his corporations have been investigated for decades and have been in violation many times and this is nothing new but still it tell you why the OP asked the asinine question in the first place...
 

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