Can a liberal be a Christian?

[freeandfun1]

Originally posted by nycflasher
Many Christians ARE liberals.
So this is sort of a moot discussion.

Then I would not call them Christian. There are many that like to proclaim they are "Christian" because they believe that is what others want to hear. Anybody that would support abortion cannot be considered a Christian period. Now there are some that might support a woman's right to choose without supporting the abortion or accepting that abortion is right. I accept that people murder and I accept murderer's right to murder. That is free-will. But I do not condone murder nor do I condone abortion. But as long as it is legal, I will accept that women have the right to make that choice. In the end it will all be sorted out - right and wrong.

 

[freeandfun1]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
seems I remember reading SOMEWHERE 'vengaence is mine, sayeth the lord'.

I agree. That is why I believe in woman's right to choose. Just as a murderer has a right to murder, an arsonist has the right to light a fire and burn a building, etc. They all have the right to make those choices but it doesn't mean I have to accept their choices. A true Christian will always offer to help those that need help. To assist even the worst of criminals. But that does not mean they would encourage or support the actions of those that do wrong.

 

[DKSuddeth]

Originally posted by freeandfun1
I agree. That is why I believe in woman's right to choose. Just as a murderer has a right to murder, an arsonist has the right to light a fire and burn a building, etc. They all have the right to make those choices but it doesn't mean I have to accept their choices. A true Christian will always offer to help those that need help. To assist even the worst of criminals. But that does not mean they would encourage or support the actions of those that do wrong.

and I certainly agree with your logic.

 

[KLSuddeth]

This is a subject that REALLY gets my ire up. And this might be a longish reply with no links or sites or articles, as I am going to give each of you my OWN thoughts - deal with it. I tend to respect those of you that post with your OWN opinions more than I respect those of you who must 'prove it' with links of other's opinions.
Get a cup of coffee, sit down and read. Thank you.

First of all, Im going to talk about my first pregnancy even though that is NOT what the thread began about. I got pregnant. I had a 1 in nearly 3 million occurance happen to me, which is I ovulated AGAIN at nearly 3 months along. Boom - got pregnant again.
So I was pregnant with 2 babies at the SAME time who were not twins. When I found this out, the first baby was nearly 5 months along, the second was a little over 2 months along. I did everything the dr said. I prayed. I talked to those sweet souls inside of me and pleaded with my doctors to save them both.

One day, I couldnt wake up appropriately and I was rushed to the hospital - I was suffering from sepsis of some sort. After days of painful testing and worrying it was found that the younger of the 2 had died and that was infecting me and the older baby. This was before the days that in-utero surgery was perfected. I was young - married yes, but young. I was in and out of consciousness. When I woke fully conscious, I was told that in order to save my life, they needed to remove the dead child (they called it a fetus of course). The other died in the process I thought - no I thought wrong. They aborted both.

So I guess that I am the scourge of america and of the heavens both because I 'had an abortion'. Shall I tell you how I suffered through the memorial services that no one wanted me to have for 2 children I never had held in my arms? Shall I tell you how my ex beat the shit out of me yearly for mourning this? Hows about I tell you about the mental anguish I STILL go through knowing that I should have 2 more children at my dinner table but they will never be there - they'll only be in my heart.....a heart that has been torn out and stomped on?

So I guess Im going to hell? I dont think so.
You dont know what I went through, however, this story could be shortened to NOT include pertinent facts and each of you would think Im a 'baby killer'.

This messed me up to where I had several miscarriages before I could even have the 2 wonderful children that Ive been blessed with - after which I had a hysterectomy - not my choice. I still yearn for these other babies I lost. I STILL yearn for the children that me and my husband now (DK) will NEVER have.

If this puts me into murderer category too, then I feel sorrier for you than I do myself. If it doesnt, then I think of you to be the worst kind of hypocrite. (Im using the word 'you' subjectively, btw)

Now, part two.....

This just burns my ass thatanyone could have the absolute temerity to even SUGGEST that I might not or am not a Christian. Yes, I am Metaphysical; no I am not 'new age-y'. Yes I AM A CHRISTIAN. THERE IS NOT ONE PERSON ON THIS BOARD WHO CAN PROVIDE SUFFICIENT PROOF OTHERWISE. NOT ONE.

I AM a Christian and I wont be told Im not. Anyone who dares to tell me such is acting in a not-so-very Christ-like way.

Actually, I think that there is a post that I explained this more than sufficiently somewhere....my own thoughts, yes - but Ive already posted them. Im going to go look for it and if I am incorrect, then I will sit down and write an addendum to this post. Otherwise, I will just link the original post.

 

[Unknown]

Originally posted by freeandfun1
I agree. That is why I believe in woman's right to choose. Just as a murderer has a right to murder, an arsonist has the right to light a fire and burn a building, etc. They all have the right to make those choices but it doesn't mean I have to accept their choices. A true Christian will always offer to help those that need help. To assist even the worst of criminals. But that does not mean they would encourage or support the actions of those that do wrong.

 

[Unknown]

Originally posted by KLSuddeth

One day, I couldnt wake up appropriately and I was rushed to the hospital - I was suffering from sepsis of some sort. After days of painful testing and worrying it was found that the younger of the 2 had died and that was infecting me and the older baby. This was before the days that in-utero surgery was perfected. I was young - married yes, but young. I was in and out of consciousness. When I woke fully conscious, I was told that in order to save my life, they needed to remove the dead child (they called it a fetus of course). The other died in the process I thought - no I thought wrong. They aborted both.

Sorry KL, that must have been horrible to go through. Did the doctor tell you that they had to remove both? I don't like many doctors because of the lack of info that they give people. They keep many people in the dark.


As for me I don't like abortions, I think they are horrible but if a child dies in you, you have absolutely no choice. Again this is my opinion. As freeandfun put it so well, people should have a choice in everything, I may not like the choice, but once the choice is made for you, you loose your freedom.

 

[KLSuddeth]

The doctor told me very little. It was my understanding at the time that they were going to remove the child that had died.

I was wrong.

The words that he used when I waked up was 'I performed a complete abortion'. I can still hear him uttering those words to me today as clearly as I heard them then.

There are those who would call me an Un-Christian murderer because of this.

I feel that is so wrong. But yes, everyone IS entitled to their own opinion.

 

[Unknown]

Originally posted by KLSuddeth
The doctor told me very little. It was my understanding at the time that they were going to remove the child that had died.

I was wrong.

The words that he used when I waked up was 'I performed a complete abortion'. I can still hear him uttering those words to me today as clearly as I heard them then.

There are those who would call me an Un-Christian murderer because of this.

I feel that is so wrong. But yes, everyone IS entitled to their own opinion.

I think no one has the right to judge except for God. I see you had no choice in the matter since the doctor took both of them out and you had not known. No one should call you a murderer since you had no choice or idea.

One thing I can't understand is why someone would have a late term abortion, child alive and healthy, and they choose to terminate that. That really saddens me.

 

[KLSuddeth]

I cant understand that either. Its so wrong -- how can someone live with themselves knowing that they made the choice to kill a healthy child that could live outside the womb? Adoption. There is the choice. So many people, myself included, have so much to offer and so much love to give a child...whether they have given birth to said child or not.

Another thing I cannot understand or abide is abortion used as birth control. It makes no sense to me. And is so sad.

 

[leojoeyjoe]

noone says you are an unchristian murderer...this is clearly a situation that calls for abortion....as in Bush's stance on it...but abortion is used as birth control...to promote "genital freedom" and irresponsibility....THAT is wrong.

 

[KLSuddeth]

agreed - however, there ARE those who would opt to call me or someone in that situation a murderer, etc. And that to me, is sad...and wrong.

 

[freeandfun1]

Originally posted by KLSuddeth
The doctor told me very little. It was my understanding at the time that they were going to remove the child that had died.

I was wrong.

The words that he used when I waked up was 'I performed a complete abortion'. I can still hear him uttering those words to me today as clearly as I heard them then.

There are those who would call me an Un-Christian murderer because of this.

I feel that is so wrong. But yes, everyone IS entitled to their own opinion.

Your circumstances, in my opinion, are not the circumstances I refer to. Just to make clear, I am referring to the woman that walks in off the street, perfectly healthy, but "inconvenienced" by being pregnant that gets an abortion.

In your case, you never condoned the abortion nor did you support it. I gather that you wanted to save both then once the one died, save at least the other. You did not make a conscience decision to get an abortion because either 1) you were more concerned about yourself or 2) you were inconvenienced by being pregnant. There is a HUGE difference. So please never feel that my diatribe was directed toward you or anybody else that would have suffered an abortion under similar circumstances.

I would never call you a baby killer or consider you as a baby killer. I believe you were wronged by the very doctors that fight to perform abortions. He didn't give one iota about your or your feelings when he aborted the healthy baby without discussing it with you or your family. In my opinion, that should be criminal.

 

[dmp]

Originally posted by KLSuddeth
agreed - however, there ARE those who would opt to call me or someone in that situation a murderer, etc. And that to me, is sad...and wrong.

who?
Who would call you a 'murderer' in your instance?

Dumb people don't matter, Lanyce...

The issue is the over-whelming acceptance of "Abortion at whim" - not anything like what you went through.


My wife's doctor knew if it came up as a choice between the life of the mother, and the life of the baby, Mom wins out. The baby is regulated to God's grace.

 

[KLSuddeth]

oh, they are out there - whether any will reply or not remains to be seen - lets hope that a passing sense of decency keeps them from doing so

 

[dmp]

Originally posted by KLSuddeth
oh, they are out there - whether any will reply or not remains to be seen - lets hope that a passing sense of decency keeps them from doing so

"Lanyce - about those who would call you 'murderer' - Fuck 'em"

- God.

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by -=d=-
"Lanyce - about those who would call you 'murderer' - Fuck 'em"

- God.

Ummm... I think maybe God would have a different choice of words.

 

[DKSuddeth]

Originally posted by gop_jeff
Ummm... I think maybe God would have a different choice of words.

I think he would speak to us in a language we could understand.

 

[leojoeyjoe]

How's this for ruining stereotypes...I'm a conservative republican and I think god is a joke...a figment of wishful imaginations...a useful political tool...sure...like in Richard III....sure bring in the people...let 'em see me pray
which reminds me of a joke (not a very good one though):
What happens when you piss off an agnostic?
He burns a question mark in your front yard...oh!
I still think people use the murder of babies as birth control...if we are going to have a debate over ending the life of a fetus (which by the way meets all the requirements of "living"...consumes nutrients..puts off waste..) we shouldn't disguise with words like "choice"....paper or plastic is a choice...
I don't see how it is justified to take away the rights of the unborn in any situation other than rape, incest, threatened life of mother or threatened life of another fetus...
besides...the liberals in California are arguing that Scott Peterson committed a DOUBLE murder for the stab that kills the UNBORN infant...laci and conner's law.....this seems to mean that the forced death of a fetus IS murder...so which is it? You cannot have your ideological cake and eat it too...

 

[Gop guy]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
uh, yes he is. you are too, apparently.

God, just look at liberal positions, pleaaaaasssssseee!

 

[DKSuddeth]

Originally posted by Gop guy
God, just look at liberal positions, pleaaaaasssssseee!

I'm well aware of what YOU think the liberal positions are. Again, you would be wrong.