Originally posted by Avatar4321
Of course obedience is not a prerequisite for faith. Faith is a prerequisite for Faith.
Whatever that means.
As for the thief. i find it completely silly bringing him up to prove you to say that obedience is unecessary. For one, you dont know anything about his life other than what happened on the cross. He may have been a thief who was converted to Christ and went and turned himself in order to repent fully. He could have been baptized with all the rest of the Saints. the simple fact is, no one knows what he did other than what happened on the cross.
-And since he ended up comitting himself to Christ on the cross, that was when Christ accepted him into heaven, wasn't it? Hmmm....sounds justified to me.
You call it silly becasue you ignore Biblical text. NOTHING Biblical is silly.
Even then the argument is weak because, the thief defended Christ on the Cross. That is a work, he also asked for a blessing which of course was action if not a work per say. The Thief offered a broken heart and a contrite spirit.
-And yet still was not offered heaven until fully accepting Christ after all else.
-Which, again, makes your point moot.
of course then there is always addressing the argument whether Christ promised he would be saved in heaven at all. That would be an interesting discussion because we know that what Christ did promise the thief is that they would be in paradise together that day. However, after the Resurrection Christ told Mary He still hadnt gone to see the Father in Heaven. So if Christ has been in paradise after He died and had yet to ascend to Heaven after the Resurrection, logically paradise and heaven cannot be the same place.
Easily adressed in the following info on Jesus and Paradise:
At that point in time paradise was located inside the earth in Hades which was divided into two primary parts as seen in Luke 16. The righteous went to the side called paradise (Abraham's bosom) the unrighteous went to Gehenna (hell).
The meaning is obvious in the context of the statement. He would be with Jesus, -where did Jesus go that day? Paradise.
Eph. 4:8-10 Therefore he says "when he ascended on high, he led captivity captive and gave gifts to men" "Now this he ascended what does it mean but that he first descended into the lower parts of the earth. 10: He who descended is also the one who ascended far above all the heavens that he might fill all things."
Those who had been waiting in faith in the compartment called Paradise (Abraham's bosom) were led in ascending to heaven with Jesus in his ascension. Jesus descending to the lowest parts first means he went from the farthest heights to the lowest. The lower parts of the earth is the word Hades. The word Sheol (Hebrew) and Hades (Greek) are two different words for the same thing.
Mt. 12:40 tells us that the location of Hades is in the center of the earth. This could refer to the incarnation although in its context it appears to mean he descended into the area of Hades to receive those out he would ascend with.
After the resurrection and the ascension of Jesus paradise was moved to heaven. The area for the righteous was emptied out, now the believer goes directly to heaven. From the New Testament teaching we find that the new location of paradise is heaven.
Jesus stated in Jn. 14:2-4 that he went ahead of us to prepare a place in heaven which is where his father dwells. That where he is we may be also.
When Stephen was martyred he looked up to heaven saying Lord Jesus receive my Spirit. He knew he was going to be immediately transferred into heaven the location of the Lord.
When Christ ascended he led captivity captive (Eph.4:8-10), those who had waited in faith in Abraham's bosom for their sins to be removed were gathered together in another place, the new Paradise in heaven.
Rev.2:7 "To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life which is in the midst of the paradise of God which is now in heaven. In Rev.22:2 we find this tree is located in the new Jerusalem (Heb.12:22-24).(Whether this is symbolic or literal is a matter of view, the fact is we will partake of it) The location of paradise will again change in the future to be on the new earth, as the new Jerusalem comes down and the dwelling place of God is with man (Rev.21:1- Rev.22).
Yeah so thats my spiel. Its one of my pet peeves when people look at the thief and try to justify not needing to be obedient on that. Its just a superfulous look at what the scripture says rather than actually trying to figure out and think about it.
Hmmm...Seems to me you are trying to fill in blanks that don't even exist.
the only other scripture that really bugs me that way is the "Gate of Hades not prevailing over the Church" arguments from Matthew 16. people take a surface reading of it and dont actually think about the imagery and what is really said. its annoying sometimes. ENough of my rant.
How about illuminating us with an incorrect understanding of that one too then?
