BUSH CRIES UNCLE, No Torture for Terrorists

[Psychoblues]

He threatened to veto the bill if the McCain language was included in it. He pissed and cried about abilities to extract information and damage to troop morale and generally accepted interrogation technigues and even brought it up that the enemy does it to us.

Really now, Americans are bigger than torture. Than can be no better example of that than John McCain. He actually served in Viet Nam, was taken prisoner of war and severely tortured by his captors. He doesn't believe in information given during torture excercises. It's actually elementary to him, and to me, that information of that kind is totally untrustworthy.

I've tried a few times to explain all that here in USMB but was severely ostracised for having done so. For all you war-mongering believers in torture and the benefits thereof, I hope you were paying attention as the President backed down and finally agreed that true Americans don't cotton or cater to terrorism or otherwise torture. We're bigger than that.

Psychoblues

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Oh my God! The US government finally agrees that it is wrong to torture fellow human beings. What a freaking giant revelation! Bush is a tool!

 

[Avatar4321]

Please you people make me sick.

Do you honestly think this is anything other than McCain voting politics? Do you think anyone could vote against what has been proclaimed the "Anti-Torture" bill?

The fact is, Americans didn't torture prisoners before. We don't torture prisoners now, and we won't in the future. But you have now added a bunch of things that aren't torture to the list of things that make our job to protect America tougher.

Besides, this bill can't be that good at eliminating torture. You guys are still talking.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Please you people make me sick.

Do you honestly think this is anything other than McCain voting politics? Do you think anyone could vote against what has been proclaimed the "Anti-Torture" bill?

The fact is, Americans didn't torture prisoners before. We don't torture prisoners now, and we won't in the future. But you have now added a bunch of things that aren't torture to the list of things that make our job to protect America tougher.

Besides, this bill can't be that good at eliminating torture. You guys are still talking.

Open your eyes fool. Nine senators voted against the anti-torture bill. Our government got caught red-handed in the Abu-Graib scandal. And the most recent revelation is that our government has secret prisons all around the planet. What do you think goes on in those places? You think they are getting day-spa treatments? You imbecile!

 

[insein]

Yea you know why they voted for this thing and Bush couldnt Veto it? They lathced it on the Armed Forces Appropriations Bill. MEaning if Bush vetoed it, it would have been a daily commercial saying "Bush vetoed the bill that sends funds directly to our troops. Impeach Bush now."

This was politics at its most disgusting. Don't let a bill stand on its own. Attach to an essential bill and then put everyone in a compromised voting position. I fucking hate Washington.

 

[theHawk]

Open your eyes fool. Nine senators voted against the anti-torture bill. Our government got caught red-handed in the Abu-Graib scandal. And the most recent revelation is that our government has secret prisons all around the planet. What do you think goes on in those places? You think they are getting day-spa treatments? You imbecile!

How was our government caught "red-handed" in the Abu-Graib scandal? It was the US army that broke the story and made it public. There was never any systematic torture going on there. Just one night of some dumbasses humiliating inmates....and they were being investigated long before it became international news. It was liberal spin that made it out to be our military was systematically 'torturing' this poor poor people....and people like you bought into it. As far as the CIA having "secret prisons" in Europe....hmm what are they supposed to do, annouce publicly 'hey we're holding Terror_suspect01 at XXX!!" I also have a hard time believing European intel agencies didn't know about these places. Its just something for their politicians to howl about to gain public support for appearing anti-american.

 

[Nienna]

Yea you know why they voted for this thing and Bush couldnt Veto it? They lathced it on the Armed Forces Appropriations Bill. MEaning if Bush vetoed it, it would have been a daily commercial saying "Bush vetoed the bill that sends funds directly to our troops. Impeach Bush now."

This was politics at its most disgusting. Don't let a bill stand on its own. Attach to an essential bill and then put everyone in a compromised voting position. I fucking hate Washington.

Hey, what ever happeneed to the "line-item veto?" Couldn't he have used that here? Maybe I don't really understand how that works.

 

[insein]

Hey, what ever happeneed to the "line-item veto?" Couldn't he have used that here? Maybe I don't really understand how that works.

me neither. Bills should be individual anyway. All this piling on is just so they can slip things past the public without us knowing.

 

[Jimmyeatworld]

He threatened to veto the bill if the McCain language was included in it. He pissed and cried about abilities to extract information and damage to troop morale and generally accepted interrogation technigues and even brought it up that the enemy does it to us.

Really now, Americans are bigger than torture. Than can be no better example of that than John McCain. He actually served in Viet Nam, was taken prisoner of war and severely tortured by his captors. He doesn't believe in information given during torture excercises. It's actually elementary to him, and to me, that information of that kind is totally untrustworthy.

I've tried a few times to explain all that here in USMB but was severely ostracised for having done so. For all you war-mongering believers in torture and the benefits thereof, I hope you were paying attention as the President backed down and finally agreed that true Americans don't cotton or cater to terrorism or otherwise torture. We're bigger than that.

Psychoblues

It's too bad you don't pay attention to what you are posting about. Essentially, nothing has changed in U.S. policy when it comes to interrogating terrorists. Things like sleep deprevation are not considered torture, and that is nothing different from the policy they already had. President Bush didn't back down from anything, he just cemented what the official U.S. policy was regarding torture, prisoners, and terrorists.

Oh, as far as being "bigger" or "better than that", I don't know of any Americans beheading anyone. We've been "better than that" for a long time.

 

[BATMAN]

And the most recent revelation is that our government has secret prisons all around the planet.

And knowing Bush, countless other planets as well.

 

[Avatar4321]

Hey, what ever happeneed to the "line-item veto?" Couldn't he have used that here? Maybe I don't really understand how that works.

The line item veto was ruled unconstitutional by our fabulous Supreme Court years ago. Besides it only applied to buget matters.

Honestly I still think its a good idea. There is no way politicians who have to run for reelection in specific districts can cut their own pork spending. Let the President do that. I think we should amend the Constitution to allow it.

 

[manu1959]

Open your eyes fool. Nine senators voted against the anti-torture bill. Our government got caught red-handed in the Abu-Graib scandal. And the most recent revelation is that our government has secret prisons all around the planet. What do you think goes on in those places? You think they are getting day-spa treatments? You imbecile!

what occured at abu graib was far from torture

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Oh my God! The US government finally agrees that it is wrong to torture fellow human beings. What a freaking giant revelation! Bush is a tool!

There have already been laws on the books against torture. Now when will they make it illegal for the torturous posting of liberals?

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Please you people make me sick.

Do you honestly think this is anything other than McCain voting politics? Do you think anyone could vote against what has been proclaimed the "Anti-Torture" bill?

The fact is, Americans didn't torture prisoners before. We don't torture prisoners now, and we won't in the future. But you have now added a bunch of things that aren't torture to the list of things that make our job to protect America tougher.

Besides, this bill can't be that good at eliminating torture. You guys are still talking.

hahhahah, I just read your post after posting the above.

Fact is, IF there is any torturing going on right now, by the CIA or someone, it will not be stopped by this piece of "feel good public relations" bill.

 

[tim_duncan2000]

Here are two good articles that sum up the ridiculousness of this stupid amendment.

Of course, it could be that soldiers never really mocked Abderrahmane’s manhood, nor did female CIA agents ever perform lap dances for Rahman. Al Qaeda’s training manual instructs operatives to bear false witness about their treatment in detention. Police in Manchester, England, discovered al Qaeda’s how-to guide in 2000. Chapter 18 tells terrorists how to behave if caught. “Insist on proving that torture was inflicted,” it says. “Complain of mistreatment while in prison.” Thus, these tales of “abuse” may be exactly that: Tales.

One massive contradiction ticks like a time bomb within Senator McCain’s proposal. Torture doesn’t work, he insists, because severe pain causes subjects to scream untruths to stop the pain. But, if a captured terrorist can point to a suitcase nuke that soon will explode, McCain explained in the November 21 Newsweek, “In such an urgent and rare instance, an interrogator might well try extreme measures to extract information that could save lives.” So, then, those ineffective techniques do work when we really need them?

Senator McCain is a decent and impressive public servant whose suffering at the hands of the Viet Cong cannot be dismissed. But his amendment would shackle the Americans who already struggle to stay one step ahead of people dedicated to slaughtering our countrymen by the thousands — as they did just over four years ago at home and continue to do nearly every day in Iraq.

Obsessing over dainty legalities could carry a steep price tag. One day, because we treated al Qaeda murderers as if they were Prussian officers, America might fail to squeeze one of these wretched killers for the clue that could have led the FBI to an atomic device hidden in Times Square. As the Shubert Theater glows in the dark, the McCain Amendment will appear to have missed the point.

http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock200512150833.asp

In late 2000 — in the flighty days before 9/11 made us think more soberly about our security — a federal judge initially suppressed the confession of Mohamed Al-`Owhali, who had blown up the U.S. embassy in Nairobi, killing over 200 innocent people. Al-`Owhali, a Saudi, had no American constitutional rights. He had been in the custody of Kenya, which does not provide Miranda protections. If the FBI agents who were allowed to question him had advised him of the standard Miranda rights, they’d have been lying to him.

No matter. The judge decided it was as if American agents carried the Fifth Amendment around with them wherever in the world they went. He thus reasoned that the failure to give Miranda warnings, in Kenya, meant the confession — on which the whole case depended — had to be suppressed.

Eventually, the judge reconsidered and permitted the confession to be introduced at the trial (at which al-`Owhali was convicted). The judge was able to do that because he had some legal flexibility. At the time, dubious at best was his premise that the Fifth Amendment actually applied to a Saudi in the custody of Kenya whose only connection to the U.S. was to bomb our embassy.

It will not be a dubious premise anymore if the McCain amendment becomes law. Al Qaeda, which shouldn’t even get Geneva Convention protections, will now be cloaked in the majesty of our Bill of Rights. Who knows how far that will be stretched over time as the federal courts, thanks to the Supreme Court’s shattering 2004 Rasul decision, begin considering hundreds of challenges by enemy combatants to their wartime detention.

The McCain amendment may have started as a well-intentioned effort to minimize torture. As written, however, it has all the makings of a debacle. A debacle that will vest our enemies with the fundamental rights of Americans, while Americans themselves are gravely imperiled.

http://www.nationalreview.com/mccarthy/mccarthy200512151421.asp

 

[Psychoblues]

If it was true that Americans have not been at least permitted and in many cases even ordered to commit torture, the McCain bill would not have been necessary at all and would not have been offered for Senatorial consideration.

Sometimes you proponents of torture just make me sick. All Veterans that also embrace "torture" as an American value and/or ideal, please raise your hands?!!!!!!!?

Psychoblues

 

[insein]

If it was true that Americans have not been at least permitted and in many cases even ordered to commit torture, the McCain bill would not have been necessary at all and would not have been offered for Senatorial consideration.

Sometimes you proponents of torture just make me sick. All Veterans that also embrace "torture" as an American value and/or ideal, please raise your hands?!!!!!!!?

Psychoblues

Your a fucking idiot. Nothing more needs to be said. Your post pretty much provides all the evidence i need of your ignorance.

 

[Psychoblues]

Your a fucking idiot. Nothing more needs to be said. Your post pretty much provides all the evidence i need of your ignorance.

ditto

Psychoblues

 

[Hobbit]

ditto

Psychoblues

Ho...ly...crap!!! I mean, the rapier edged wit of your responses cuts through the lies of we dishonest Republicans like a hot knife through butter. It wounds the very soul.

You know, there might even be a more complicated, metaphorical way of saying that, and it might even rhyme. Well, it seems as though his insult has bounced off of you. Hmm, what substance causes things to bounce off? Rubber! Well, then it apparently stuck to him. So, what's sticky? I know! Glue! So, if you're rubber and he's glue...

 

[sitarro]

Open your eyes fool. Nine senators voted against the anti-torture bill. Our government got caught red-handed in the Abu-Graib scandal. And the most recent revelation is that our government has secret prisons all around the planet. What do you think goes on in those places? You think they are getting day-spa treatments? You imbecile!

Are you gonna try to tell us that the things that went on in Abu-Graib were any different than what you and your blow-buddy frat brothers do each weekend? Really?