Zone1 Broad-brush reparations to all blacks is unconstituional

[Lisa558]

Oh my God! There are exceptions to every rule.
BTW, I was speaking to more recent history. In the 30's East New York was not the shit hole it was in the 70's and 80's.

True. In the 30s, East New York was largely (legal) immigrants - lots of Italians and Jews - who were thrilled to be in America with all its opportunities, and their children worked hard to succeed.

Nowadays, East New York is a crime-ridden ghetto.

 

[JoeB131]

True. In the 30s, East New York was largely (legal) immigrants - lots of Italians and Jews - who were thrilled to be in America with all its opportunities, and their children worked hard to succeed.

Nowadays, East New York is a crime-ridden ghetto.

YOu do realize the word Ghetto was to describe the places Poor Jews lived, right?

Ghetto: Chronicling a Word’s Tortured History | Columbian College of Arts & Sciences | The George Washington University

columbian.gwu.edu

What is a ghetto? A racially-segregated city block? An enclave of immigrants? A walled urban prison? The ideologically charged term defies easy definition. It can be a noun or an adjective. It can refer to a physical place or a concept. And while the word comes from the Italian “gettare” for “casting,” it has at times been linked to the Yiddish “gehektes,” meaning “enclosed,” and the Latin “Giudaicetum”—“Jewish.”

I agree it will never happen. The only way it COULD happen is if an individual black, or specific family, can demonstrate than a wealthy white family became rich off their specific ancestors who were slaves.

I actually think Newsvine might have a case IF she can locate the grandchildren of the plantation owner her great-aunt worked for and claim back wages. Even then, I’m not sure the descendants are responsible for the debts of their ancestors

The people who made the decision to lock up 110,000 Japanese Americans were all dead by the 1980's, too. That didn't mean they weren't entitled to compensation.

 

[IM2]

So…I’m going to say something here.

Your ideas and statements are being challenged. So are those of everyone in this thread. There are good points brought up on both sides of the reparations question. If your positions or statements are being challenged as racist, take it as an opportunity to examine them, what drives you to hold them or defend them? If you put them to an honest test and still feel they are valid, then that is fine, you’ll have put them to the test. If you find your position has shifted a bit, then that’s fine too. Ironically, that’s part of what a college education is supposed to do…put your assumptions to a test, force you to examine them and defend them, and expose you to other points of view.

I have been challenged over my years here on several things where my view has shifted and where the nature of the discussion made me examine or question my position and reasons for why I defend it. In some cases my view changed. Examples of such topics are: abortion, reparations, the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. In cases where my views didn’t shift, at least I understood the other point of view better.

And I agree, calling someone a racist (or for that matter anti-Semite) shuts off dialogue, but challenging someone’s statements - why do you believe this - encourages it (albeit super hard in this place to stick to that).

One of the best challenges I had was with another poster (and friend) here years ago. We chose to argue opposite sides of abortion. I argued against and he argued for. I believe the forum we did it in was the Bull Ring, the rules for that are only the two participants are allowed to argue. Each sets off with an opening statement, a series of rebuttals, and then a closing argument after which it is open to other members who can vote on which arguement was the best. The topic parameters are strictly defined and the rules are CDZ. If you ever want to argue reparations in this manner, I’m willing.

She may debate you because you're a not black. She thinksshes better than blacks so no matter what facts she gets shown by blacks, she doesn't accept. This is why she is called a racist.

 

[Lisa558]

She may debate you because you're a not black. She thinksshes better than blacks so no matter what facts she gets shown by blacks, she doesn't accept. This is why she is called a racist.

^^^ example of the nasty and false accusations that have no place in a Zone 1 thread.

 

[IM2]

Why would reparations cause a race war? Reparations have been paid before.

5 tiimes in the United States.

Jews got reparations from the U.S. government for something another country did to them?

Billions in Reparations Have Been Paid to Suffering Ethnic Groups, Except One.​

Jews – Adolf Hitler/Holocaust:
United States: $12,000 million over 5 years for citizens 65 years + older
Germany: $90 billion
Austria: $25 million
That's 12 billion dollars from the U.S. government for something it did not do the Jews.

Japanese:
United States: $1.25 billion to heirs in addition to $1.65 billion previously paid out to claimants
Canada: $230 million
1.65 billion paid to people who made claims and who may not have been impacted.

American Indians/Alaskan Natives:
United States: $940 million, $3.4 billion in royalties, and $554 million for mismanagement of resources
United States: 44 million acres of land
Canada: 250,000 sq miles of land
Reparations paid for things that happened starting in the 1800's.

Black Aborigines:
Australia: National Sorry Day (May 26 each year) -U.N. currently urging country to pay Aborigines reparations

Australia

Black Descendant of African Slaves (America, Europe, etc):
Nothing, not even a National Sorry Day

Slave Owners in the U.S.

The United States paid reparations to SLAVE OWNERS! In 1862, the U.S. compensated slave owners who were loyal to the Union. The compensation included $300 for every slave that was freed and $100 for every person choosing emigration.

Billions in Reparations Have Been Paid to Suffering Ethnic Groups, Except One. | Carolina's Premiere Music, Fashion, Culture Magazine

syllabusmagazine.com

People here arguing against reparations are only doing so based on racist hate. The can't know the facts or some of these arguments would not be made. And if they do know the facts and argue in opposition, then they are just saying that yes, we screwed blacks and we will continue to do so. That is racist.

 

[Foxfyre]

How does that even begin to compare to this, which is representative of what travel was like for Blacks under Jim Crowe? How can you boil it down to mere “inconvenience”?

https://www.thirteen.org/wnet/jimcrow/narrative_holloway.html

So it is race baiting to ask for reparations for Jim Crowe, a system of LAWS put into place to remove civil and constitutional rights from a group of people still alive today?

Let’s go back to the interred Japanese Americans.

• They paid reparations 43 years AFTER it occurred, and cultural attitudes had changed.

• No individual was required to show evidence of material damage in order to receive reparations.

• All received the same reparation whether they were infants, children, adults at the time and regardless of how long they were actually interred for.

Yes it is race baiting to ask for reparations for laws that existed 60 years ago and for which black people now are not able to show that they suffered any personal or material damages from those laws. To push for reparations for people now just because they have black skin results in resentment and forcing black people be seen as perpetual victims who take advantage of their victimhood and leech off the nanny state or who are too stupid or incapable of achieving success unless '******' continues to male them special beneficiaries of the state. It sets back healthy and profitable integration decades. It insults honorable black people who take pride in their achievements and that they are responsible citizens who have succeeded in life by their own initiative and ability.

It is race baiting for political purposes and/or personal advantage and smart people recognize it as such.

P.S. You can find any number of leftist articles that pretend black people were prevented from traveling. There were unjust incidents yes but it simply is not true they were excluded from airlines or trains. And read up on the 'green book' utilized by traveling black people to get around Jim Crow.

I am not condoning any Jim Crow laws or injustices done to any people anywhere. But to assume that injustices of 60 years or more ago apply to black people 60 years later is just nuts just as it would be nuts to assume women subject to injustices 60 years ago are entitled to compensation for that now.

 

[Coyote]

Only those who were interred - put in prison got it.

That is exactly what I said Lisa, which is why only those who lived under Jim Crowe should get it, not all Blacks.

Note: reparations were given to interred Japanese Americans regardless of how long they were interred, whether or not they could prove material damages and regardless of their age at internment. So, for example, a person who was a baby and relatively unaffected got the same reparations as the man forced to short-sell his business, his home and move his family to an interment camp.

These are all arguments you use to restrict reparations for Jim Crowe. How do you square the two different standards here?

There is an interesting discussion here about why it is much more difficult to get reparations for descendents of slaves vs Japanese Americans who were interred (and it isn’t an argument of justness). It is also why I think using Jim Crowe as a factor is better than slavery.

Why Japanese-Americans received reparations and African-Americans are still waiting

Social movement theory helps to explain why Japanese-Americans received reparations but the same will be much more challenging to provide for African-Americans.

theconversation.com

 

[Coyote]

Nope….because you’ve already said, in direct words or otherwise, that you think I’m a racist for supporting reparations ONLY to blacks who lived in Jim Crowe states. I don’t need to “examine” anything. What you did, and others on this thread like IM2 and Newsvine, is the typical leftist manner of debate: insulting and labeling people with horrible names if they don‘t defer to the leftist position 100%.

It is your choice. I guess my question is, what are so afraid of by arguing for the other side? You might learn something new.

And no, I don’t think you are a “racist” for arguing that reparations should only go to Blacks in Jim Crowe states. That’s a perfectly valid view point. I just happen to disagree with it and have given my reason’s why.

Is disagreeing with your argument calling you a racist?

 

[IM2]

I. TWENTIETH CENTURY FEDERAL HOUSING DISCRIMINATION IN AMERICA:
THE GOVERNMENT’S CONSTRUCTION OF WHITE PROPERTY AND WHITE WEALTH​

This Part of the article examines the U.S. government’s discriminatory housing practices from the New Deal until the 1968 Fair Housing Act and its 1988 Amendments. This time period involved various forms of discrimination, within and independent from housing and homeownership. Discrimination during this time was overt and covert in housing and lending. It was state-mandated and state-enforced at both the local and federal levels.

A. The Federal Construction of Neighborhood and Property Ratings: Racist Redlining is Born​

Implementing FDR’s new national housing policy, the HOLC surveyed and rated every urban and suburban neighborhood in the United States. First-established by the HOLC, federal agencies and private actors both used race-based rating systems to: (a) appraise homes, neighborhoods, and households; (b) determine the governmentconstructed property values and the investment-worthiness of prospective homeowners and land developments; and (c) exclude black-Americans from quality housing, government-subsidized and government-insured loans, and home equity opportunities. The HOLC’s rating system, which was essentially replicated by the FHA and the VA, was expressly racist. The federal government, through the HOLC’s ratings and the FHA’s ratings, effectively stigmatized minority communities by “redlining” them—or, in other words, by falsely constructing or re-constructing these communities as dangerous and unstable. Accordingly, the federal government’s property and neighborhood rating systems barred private and government investment in communities of color, as well as black homeownership.

Black Reparations for Twentieth Century Federal Housing Discrimination: The Construction of White Wealth and the Effects of Denied Black Homeownership

This year marks the 400th anniversary of the first documented arrival of Africans to the United States, which resulted in the enslavement of approximately 4 mil

deliverypdf.ssrn.com

 

[noonereal]

True. In the 30s, East New York was largely (legal) immigrants - lots of Italians and Jews - who were thrilled to be in America with all its opportunities, and their children worked hard to succeed.

Nowadays, East New York is a crime-ridden ghetto.

No, today East New York has enjoyed the same gentrification as all of Brooklyn has.
It's not Brooklyn Heights but it is now filled with Mc Mansion kids in their 30s and 40s who refuse to grow up and think that they are cool living in Brooklyn.

 

[Lisa558]

It is your choice. I guess my question is, what are so afraid of by arguing for the other side? You might learn something new.

You are a mod free to delete any post of mine, or lock the thread entirely, if it’s not going your way. Why would I enter into such an unbalanced debate? I wouldn’t go into the boxing ring with Mike Tyson, either, who could “delete” me permanently with one punch.

And no, I don’t think you are a “racist” for arguing that reparations should only go to Blacks in Jim Crowe states. That’s a perfectly valid view point. I just happen to disagree with it and have given my reason’s why.

Is disagreeing with your argument calling you a racist?

No, but you’ve called me a racist, or implied it quite directly many times in the past, and I won’t debate with someone who already has such a pre-conceived, false, and extremely negative opinion of me.

 

[Lisa558]

No, today East New York has enjoyed the same gentrification as all of Brooklyn has.
It's not Brooklyn Heights but it is now filled with Mc Mansion kids in their 30s and 40s who refuse to grow up and think that they are cool living in Brooklyn.

Not in the part where my dad and uncle grew up.

 

[IM2]

That is exactly what I said Lisa, which is why only those who lived under Jim Crowe should get it, not all Blacks.

Note: reparations were given to interred Japanese Americans regardless of how long they were interred, whether or not they could prove material damages and regardless of their age at internment. So, for example, a person who was a baby and relatively unaffected got the same reparations as the man forced to short-sell his business, his home and move his family to an interment camp.

These are all arguments you use to restrict reparations for Jim Crowe. How do you square the two different standards here?

There is an interesting discussion here about why it is much more difficult to get reparations for descendents of slaves vs Japanese Americans who were interred (and it isn’t an argument of justness). It is also why I think using Jim Crowe as a factor is better than slavery.

Why Japanese-Americans received reparations and African-Americans are still waiting

Social movement theory helps to explain why Japanese-Americans received reparations but the same will be much more challenging to provide for African-Americans.

theconversation.com

The only problem with your view Coyote is that blacks are experiencing a more subtle form of Jim Crow now. I've shown the statement from Flash over and over whereby he had denied blacks job opportunities for 20 years. He is not the only person who has done this Also since 93 million whites are living on homestead land and entire cities were built withh the resulting opportunities with on that same homestead land, we have to look at more than jim crow.

Then there is this:

“By a conservative estimate, in 1860 the total value of slaves was at least ten times more than the gold and silver then circulating nationally ($228.3 million, “most of it in the North,” the authors add), total currency ($435.4 million), and even the value of the South’s total farmland ($1.92billion). Slaves were, to slavers, worth more than everything else they could imagine combined.”

Jason Kottke, A History of the Slave-Breeding Industry in the United States, Feb 02, 2016, https://kottke.org/16/02/a-history-of-theslave-breeding-industry-in-the-united-states

"In the 1830s, powerful Southern slaveowners wanted to import capital into their states so they could buy more slaves. They came up with a new, two-part idea:mortgaging slaves; and then turning the mortgages into bonds that could be marketed all over the world.

First, American planters organized new banks, usually in new states like Mississippi and Louisiana. Drawing up lists of slaves for collateral, the planters then mortgaged them to the banks they had created, enabling themselves to buy additional slaves to expand cotton production. To provide capital for those loans, the banks sold bonds to investors from around the globe — London, New York, Amsterdam,Paris. The bond buyers, many of whom lived in countries where slavery was illegal, didn’t own individual slaves —just bonds backed by their value. Planters’ mortgage payments paid the interest and the principle on these bond payments. Enslaved human beings had been, in modern financial lingo, “securitized.”

As slave-backed mortgages became paper bonds, everybody profited — except, obviously, enslaved African Americans whose forced labor repaid owners’ mortgages. But investors owed a piece of slave-earned income. Older slave states such as Maryland and Virginia sold slaves to the new cotton states, at securitization-inflated prices, resulting in slave asset bubble. Cotton factor firms like the now-defunct Lehman Brothers — founded in Alabama — became wildly successful. Lehman moved to Wall Street, and for all these firms, every transaction in slave-earned money flowing in and out of the U.S. earned Wall Street firms a fee.

The infant American financial industry nourished itself on profits taken from financing slave traders, cotton brokers and underwriting slave-backed bonds. But though slavery ended in 1865, in the years after the Civil War, black entrepreneurs would find themselves excluded from a financial system originally built on their bodies". -Edward E. Baptist and Louis Hyman, American Finance Grew on the Back of Slaves

American Finance Grew on the Back of Slaves

American Finance Grew on the Back of Slaves By Edward E. Baptist and Louis Hyman Chicago Sun-Times.com March 7, 2014 Last weekend we watched the Oscars and, like most people, were pleased that “T…

norbertobarreto.blog

There was wealth made during slavery that accumulates to today and that has to be figured out. Lost earnings that impacted generational wealth must be determined. Reparations is not going to be an easy just cut a check thing. There is going to be considerable research done and eligibility must be determined... Just like it has been done for every other group who has recieved reparations.

 

[Coyote]

Yes it is race baiting to ask for reparations for laws that existed 60 years ago and for which black people now are not able to show that they suffered any personal or material damages from those laws. To push for reparations for people now just because they have black skin results in resentment and forcing black people be seen as perpetual victims who take advantage of their victimhood and leech off the nanny state or who are too stupid or incapable of achieving success unless '******' continues to male them special beneficiaries of the state. It sets back healthy and profitable integration decades. It insults honorable black people who take pride in their achievements and that they are responsible citizens who have succeeded in life by their own initiative and ability.

It is race baiting for political purposes and/or personal advantage and smart people recognize it as such.

Japanese Americans fought for 40 years for reparations. Was that race baiting?

P.S. You can find any number of leftist articles that pretend black people were prevented from traveling. There were unjust incidents yes but it simply is not true they were excluded from airlines or trains. And read up on the 'green book' utilized by traveling black people to get around Jim Crow.

Pretend? I honestly don’t know what to say about this statement.

Did you read the first hand account I posted? That wasn’t isolated, that was typical of the very real dangers they faced that people like you or I never thought twice about.

The fact that they HAD to have a green book should tell how very bad things were! Did white people need a green book? You can make good arguments for why we shouldn’t give reparations but trying minimalize what they faced is not a good argument.

Gas stations, diners and hotels did not have to serve Blacks. Some locations were known as “sunset towns” because Blacks had to get out by sunset or they could be lynched. Keep in mi d we did not have the convenient interstate system we do today so wasn’t always possible to avoid these areas. As one account stated you just filled up on gas and drove without stopping praying you’d get to someplace safe by sunset.




Technically you are correct, they weren’t “excluded” from trains. But is this much better? Are you going to say they should be grateful?

From Jim Crow to Now: On the Realities of Traveling While Black

In 1922 Joseph K. Bowler told a reporter for the Chicago Defender that he never ventured to the South without a “Jim Crow traveling kit.” Designed to allow Bowler, a minister who lived in Massachus…

lithub.com

I am not condoning any Jim Crow laws or injustices done to any people anywhere. But to assume that injustices of 60 years or more ago apply to black people 60 years later is just nuts just as it would be nuts to assume women subject to injustices 60 years ago are entitled to compensation for that now.

 

[IM2]

The Negro Motorist Green Book, popularly known as the Green Book, was a travel guide intended to help African American motorists avoid social obstacles prevalent during the period of racial segregation, commonly referred to as Jim Crow. The Green Book listed businesses that would accept African American customers.

The Negro Motorist Green Book (1936-1964)

The Negro Motorist Green Book, popularly known as the Green Book, was a travel guide intended to help African American motorists avoid social obstacles prevalent during the period of racial segregation, commonly referred to as Jim Crow. The Green Book listed businesses that would accept African...

www.blackpast.org

The Negro Motorist Green Book, 1949 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The Negro Motorist Green Book, 1949,from http://www.autolife.umd.umich.edu/Race/R_Casestudy/Negro_motorist_green_bk.htmand a history of it from: ...

archive.org

 

[Coyote]

Coyote

One big problem I have with leftists is that they DEMAND certain programs or benefits for people they feel are “oppressed” without any real thought as to how it will be paid.

Ok. That is a reasonable concern.

So let’s get real. I have heard of absolutely asinine numbers and schemes to determine how much reparations blacks should get, including one suggestion that we should take the total net worth of all Americans and redistribute it so that 13% of it goes to blacks. Another came up with some number like $17 trillion tombr distributed among all blacks.

Of course you are going to get all kinds of crazy numbers thrown out at the beginning. What they begin with and end with are two different things and shouldn’t obscure the central point in this: the government deprived a group of people of their Constitutional and civil rights and some of redress is needed. When reparations were decided for Japanese Americans, a relatively small amount (nothing compared to their actual losses in some cases) was agreed on along with an apology by the President and a few other monetary things.

Do people not realize that doing this type of thing will destroy America? Or bankrupt white people who have worked responsibly all their lives, made sacrifices, and saved for the golden years?

How would it Bankrupt White people? Why only White people?

This entire discussion is meaningless if we don’t discuss amounts as well. Will blacks be satisfied with the $290 per month, adjusted for inflation that was paid to Holocaust survivors who made it through hell on earth, and maimed for life? Because the numbers I’ve read of, into the trillions, or redistributing all assets so whites and blacks are “equitized,” make the entire discussion moot.

Some will, some won’t. What you are out is also the importance of an acknowledgement of wrong and an apology. The cash amount is going to be token no matter what. But can’t discuss amounts with first acknowledging that some form of reparations are owed.

 

[IM2]

It is your choice. I guess my question is, what are so afraid of by arguing for the other side? You might learn something new.

And no, I don’t think you are a “racist” for arguing that reparations should only go to Blacks in Jim Crowe states. That’s a perfectly valid view point. I just happen to disagree with it and have given my reason’s why.

Is disagreeing with your argument calling you a racist?

Jim Crrow was in all 50 states. Using Lisas/Foxfyres Argument Japanese shhould only have received reparations from California, Washington, and Oregon. Lisa is a racist and it's not only because of her views on reparations.

 

[Coyote]

I agree it will never happen. The only way it COULD happen is if an individual black, or specific family, can demonstrate than a wealthy white family became rich off their specific ancestors who were slaves.

I actually think Newsvine might have a case IF she can locate the grandchildren of the plantation owner her great-aunt worked for and claim back wages. Even then, I’m not sure the descendants are responsible for the debts of their ancestors

They are not unless by choice.

 

[Lisa558]

Jim Crrow was in all 50 states. Using Lisas/Foxfyres Argument Japanese shhould only have received reparations from California, Washington, and Oregon. Lisa is a racist and it's not only because of her views on reparations.

@ Coyote.

This post, calling me a racist, is not only a nasty false attack, but in violation of Zone 1 rules. Please delete his crap.

It’s unfortunate, because I thought you and I were starting to make headway, given the non-hostile tone of your last message, and I was about to respond when IM2 comes out with his blatant attacks. Please try to get a hold of him. His attitude is actually setting back race relations.

 

[Lisa558]

They are not unless by choice.

Not sure - that would be for the Courts. I know, for example, that some 60-year-old could not ring my doorbell, show me how my grandfather never paid a debt to his grandfather, and demand I pay him.

Depending on the circumstances, I might make good on it. But I am not legally obligated.