Zone1 Broad-brush reparations to all blacks is unconstituional

[Coyote]

What I’m showing is that you can’t give reparations to all blacks as if they’re the same. The fact is that there WERE blacks who went to college on the government‘s dime, same as whites, even 100 years ago.

Those blacks went on to live successful lives, thanks to the wonderful opportunity the government gave them.

We gave reparations to all Japanese Americans who were interred as if they were the same, even if they were too young to have been materially damaged. Even if they went on to college on the “government’s dime”. And no one questioned it.

 

[Lisa558]

Wouldn’t have to be, anyone our age would have been born in Jim Crowe and could talk about their parents or introduce you to them for a conversation.

The black people I know well enough to ask about reparations no longer have parents alive.

 

[Coyote]

Because it’s annoying to be called a racist when you’re not. Look at how you went off when I called you a blacktivist or angry. IOW, you expect to be able to yell ”racist!” at people simply because they object to race-based bias (ironic) and then get all huffy when someone calls you a blacktivist or angry.

So…I’m going to say something here.

Your ideas and statements are being challenged. So are those of everyone in this thread. There are good points brought up on both sides of the reparations question. If your positions or statements are being challenged as racist, take it as an opportunity to examine them, what drives you to hold them or defend them? If you put them to an honest test and still feel they are valid, then that is fine, you’ll have put them to the test. If you find your position has shifted a bit, then that’s fine too. Ironically, that’s part of what a college education is supposed to do…put your assumptions to a test, force you to examine them and defend them, and expose you to other points of view.

I have been challenged over my years here on several things where my view has shifted and where the nature of the discussion made me examine or question my position and reasons for why I defend it. In some cases my view changed. Examples of such topics are: abortion, reparations, the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. In cases where my views didn’t shift, at least I understood the other point of view better.

And I agree, calling someone a racist (or for that matter anti-Semite) shuts off dialogue, but challenging someone’s statements - why do you believe this - encourages it (albeit super hard in this place to stick to that).

One of the best challenges I had was with another poster (and friend) here years ago. We chose to argue opposite sides of abortion. I argued against and he argued for. I believe the forum we did it in was the Bull Ring, the rules for that are only the two participants are allowed to argue. Each sets off with an opening statement, a series of rebuttals, and then a closing argument after which it is open to other members who can vote on which arguement was the best. The topic parameters are strictly defined and the rules are CDZ. If you ever want to argue reparations in this manner, I’m willing.

 

[Coyote]

The black people I know well enough to ask about reparations no longer have parents alive.

They will have family stories you can ask about (like some of the members on here do).

 

[Coyote]

Affected is not the same as harmed. I am affected by rude, insensitive, angry, hateful people all the time. I avoid some areas that are just not safe to be. I very often have needed to travel and there were no means of travel available at the time I needed them. I have had to prove my worth in several jobs I have had, have had to work commission instead of salary to get a decent income, have had job assignments that really no woman should have to do but I did them. I have been paid a lower salary because I was married and had a husband to help with expenses.

How does that even begin to compare to this, which is representative of what travel was like for Blacks under Jim Crowe? How can you boil it down to mere “inconvenience”?

https://www.thirteen.org/wnet/jimcrow/narrative_holloway.html

Can I show personal or material damages for any of that? Of course not. I accept that we are people living in an imperfect world that is going to get it wrong from time to time which is a fact of all of human history. As a people we change our views and attitudes as time passes and we try to stop doing things badly and replace them with doing things more constructively.

To pay all black people reparations for a culture that existed 60 or more years ago while ignoring all the other injustices that happened to other people is just dumb and pandering in a way that will harm black people for generations if the race baiters succeed in this insane policy.

So it is race baiting to ask for reparations for Jim Crowe, a system of LAWS put into place to remove civil and constitutional rights from a group of people still alive today?

Let’s go back to the interred Japanese Americans.

• They paid reparations 43 years AFTER it occurred, and cultural attitudes had changed.

• No individual was required to show evidence of material damage in order to receive reparations.

• All received the same reparation whether they were infants, children, adults at the time and regardless of how long they were actually interred for.

 

[JoeB131]

….AND THAT HE BECAME A COLLEGE-EDUCATED PROFESSIONAL, PAID FOR BY THE GOVERNMENT.

And of course he was a hard worker. Did it occur to you that he got the free college education, same as whites, due to hard work?

How many free colleges were given out, Lisa?

I went to college by joining the military. It wasn't "Free", it was paid for through hard work and some risk to life and limb.

 

[JoeB131]

Don’t you think it would be rude for me to walk up to a black man and ask if he wants reparations?

Maybe. But maybe if you talked to black people instead of at them, you might gain some understanding.

 

[noonereal]

No, in reality. Only ignorant whites like pretending color is nothing because theit whiteness has allowed them preferences that others have to fight for.

That you belive this makes you a problem.
I am sick of black victimization.

I have experienced their warped interpretation of events many times in my life.

I am sick of it.

 

[Lisa558]

We gave reparations to all Japanese Americans who were interred as if they were the same, even if they were too young to have been materially damaged. Even if they went on to college on the “government’s dime”. And no one questioned it.

Only those who were interred - put in prison got it.

 

[Lisa558]

That you belive this makes you a problem.
I am sick of black victimization.

I have experienced their warped interpretation of events many times in my life.

I am sick of it.

Blacks like IM2 make it less likely that whites will vote to fund a reparations scheme. It’s the demanding, bullying, entitled attitude that turns people off.

 

[Lisa558]

So…I’m going to say something here.

Your ideas and statements are being challenged. So are those of everyone in this thread. There are good points brought up on both sides of the reparations question. If your positions or statements are being challenged as racist, take it as an opportunity to examine them, what drives you to hold them or defend them? If you put them to an honest test and still feel they are valid, then that is fine, you’ll have put them to the test. If you find your position has shifted a bit, then that’s fine too. Ironically, that’s part of what a college education is supposed to do…put your assumptions to a test, force you to examine them and defend them, and expose you to other points of view.

I have been challenged over my years here on several things where my view has shifted and where the nature of the discussion made me examine or question my position and reasons for why I defend it. In some cases my view changed. Examples of such topics are: abortion, reparations, the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. In cases where my views didn’t shift, at least I understood the other point of view better.

And I agree, calling someone a racist (or for that matter anti-Semite) shuts off dialogue, but challenging someone’s statements - why do you believe this - encourages it (albeit super hard in this place to stick to that).

One of the best challenges I had was with another poster (and friend) here years ago. We chose to argue opposite sides of abortion. I argued against and he argued for. I believe the forum we did it in was the Bull Ring, the rules for that are only the two participants are allowed to argue. Each sets off with an opening statement, a series of rebuttals, and then a closing argument after which it is open to other members who can vote on which arguement was the best. The topic parameters are strictly defined and the rules are CDZ. If you ever want to argue reparations in this manner, I’m willing.

Nope….because you’ve already said, in direct words or otherwise, that you think I’m a racist for supporting reparations ONLY to blacks who lived in Jim Crowe states. I don’t need to “examine” anything. What you did, and others on this thread like IM2 and Newsvine, is the typical leftist manner of debate: insulting and labeling people with horrible names if they don‘t defer to the leftist position 100%.

 

[JoeB131]

Blacks like IM2 make it less likely that whites will vote to fund a reparations scheme. It’s the demanding, bullying, entitled attitude that turns people off.

I agree, it's rude.

You know what, white people only do the right thing when black people threaten to burn their shit.

We saw that in 1968, we saw that after the Rodney King riots, and we saw that in the BLM Riots.

Black people politely ask for things to change for years, until they get fed up and stop asking nicely.

 

[noonereal]

Blacks like IM2 make it less likely that whites will vote to fund a reparations scheme. It’s the demanding, bullying, entitled attitude that turns people off.

Reperations would cause a race war.

Better these people grow the **** up.

They have had MORE opertunity than I the last 50 years.

Wasn't color fairness what it was all about?
Hasn't that been conqured?
Yes it has.

The iniquities lie in classes.
Black, Hispanic or white, if you came from East New York, you were pretty much fucked.

Its about class, not color. It's 2024.

 

[Lisa558]

Coyote

One big problem I have with leftists is that they DEMAND certain programs or benefits for people they feel are “oppressed” without any real thought as to how it will be paid.

So let’s get real. I have heard of absolutely asinine numbers and schemes to determine how much reparations blacks should get, including one suggestion that we should take the total net worth of all Americans and redistribute it so that 13% of it goes to blacks. Another came up with some number like $17 trillion tombr distributed among all blacks.

Do people not realize that doing this type of thing will destroy America? Or bankrupt white people who have worked responsibly all their lives, made sacrifices, and saved for the golden years?

This entire discussion is meaningless if we don’t discuss amounts as well. Will blacks be satisfied with the $290 per month, adjusted for inflation that was paid to Holocaust survivors who made it through hell on earth, and maimed for life? Because the numbers I’ve read of, into the trillions, or redistributing all assets so whites and blacks are “equitized,” make the entire discussion moot.

 

[Lisa558]

Reperations would cause a race war.

Better these people grow the **** up.

They have had MORE opertunity than I the last 50 years.

Wasn't color fairness what it was all about?
Hasn't that been conqured?
Yes it has.

The iniquities lie in classes.
Black, Hispanic or white, if you came from East New York, you were pretty much fucked.

Its about class, not color. It's 2024.

I agree with you in that reparations will cause a race war.

Where I disagree is that if you came from East New York, you were pretty much fucked. Why? Because that is where my Jewish father and uncle grew up in the 30s and 40s, sons of impoverished, uneducated immigrants. They each were bright (RIP, both), disciplined, motivated, and studious - and won free college educations, as did the blacks in their class. They went on to the middle class, then affluence, so I’d hardly say they were fucked.

To the contrary, it proves that with the right choices, abilities, and values, one can overcome bigotry and poverty.

 

[noonereal]

Coyote

One big problem I have with leftists is that they DEMAND certain programs or benefits for people they feel are “oppressed” without any real thought as to how it will be paid.

So let’s get real. I have heard of absolutely asinine numbers and schemes to determine how much reparations blacks should get, including one suggestion that talk the total net worth of all Americans and redistribute it so that 13% of it goes to blacks. Another came up with some number like $17 trillion tombr distributed among all blacks.

Do people not realize that doing this type of thing will destroy America? Or bankrupt white people who have worked responsibly all their lives, made sacrifices, and saved for the golden years?

This entire discussion is meaningless if we don’t discuss amounts as well. Will blacks be satisfied with the $290 per month, adjusted for inflation that was paid to Holocaust survivors who made it through hell on earth, and maimed for life? Because the numbers I’ve read of, into the trillions, or redistributing all assets to so whites and blacks are “equitized,” make the entire discussion moot.

Don't lose any sleep over this.
The country will burn, righly so, before reparations are paid.

 

[JoeB131]

One big problem I have with leftists is that they DEMAND certain programs or benefits for people they feel are “oppressed” without any real thought as to how it will be paid.

Sure we have. Make the rich pay their fair share. 1% of the population has 41% of the wealth. The reality is that wealth HAS been redistributed in this country, in the wrong direction.

So let’s get real. I have heard of absolutely asinine numbers and schemes to determine how much reparations blacks should get, including one suggestion that talk the total net worth of all Americans and redistribute it so that 13% of it goes to blacks. Another came up with some number like $17 trillion tombr distributed among all blacks.

Okay, those numbers are silly. So is you trying to screw blacks to get only what Jews got for the Holocaust.

Do people not realize that doing this type of thing will destroy America? Or bankrupt white people who have worked responsibly all their lives, made sacrifices, and saved for the golden years?

What will destroy America is the right-wing making their white grievance politics into policy.

This entire discussion is meaningless if we don’t discuss amounts as well. Will blacks be satisfied with the $290 per month, adjusted for inflation that was paid to Holocaust survivors who made it through hell on earth, and maimed for life? Because the numbers I’ve read of, into the trillions, or redistributing all assets to so whites and blacks are “equitized,” make the entire discussion moot.

Again, not sure why you are bringing up shit that happened in another country as an example. If you think Germany didn't pay you enough, go complain to Germany, and they can tell you to go **** yourself.

Meanwhile, America needs to find a way to address her past sins, and it would be in all of our best interests to do so. Not sure if reparations are the answer, but we need to do something.

 

[noonereal]

I agree with you in that reparations will cause a race war.

Where I disagree is that if you came from East New York, you were pretty much fucked. Why? Because that is where my Jewish father and uncle grew up in the 30s and 40s, sons of impoverished, uneducated immigrants. They each were bright (RIP, both), disciplined, motivated, and studious - and won free college educations, as did the blacks in their class. They went on to the middle class, then affluence, so I’d hardly say they were fucked.

To the contrary, it proves that with the right choices, abilities, and values, one can overcome bigotry and poverty.

Oh my God! There are exceptions to every rule.
BTW, I was speaking to more recent history. In the 30's East New York was not the shit hole it was in the 70's and 80's.

 

[JoeB131]

I agree with you in that reparations will cause a race war.

Where I disagree is that if you came from East New York, you were pretty much fucked. Why? Because that is where my Jewish father and uncle grew up in the 30s and 40s, sons of impoverished, uneducated immigrants. They each were bright (RIP, both), disciplined, motivated, and studious - and won free college educations, as did the blacks in their class. They went on to the middle class, then affluence, so I’d hardly say they were fucked.

To the contrary, it proves that with the right choices, abilities, and values, one can overcome bigotry and poverty.

Again, you aren't a minority if you have to self-identify.

I put you in a group of other white people, and some Neo-Nazis come in looking for the Jew, unless you say something, you are safe.

You put IM2 into a group of white folks, and some Klansman come in looking for the black guy, he's going to be pretty much screwed.

 

[Lisa558]

Don't lose any sleep over this.
The country will burn, righly so, before reparations are paid.

I agree it will never happen. The only way it COULD happen is if an individual black, or specific family, can demonstrate than a wealthy white family became rich off their specific ancestors who were slaves.

I actually think Newsvine might have a case IF she can locate the grandchildren of the plantation owner her great-aunt worked for and claim back wages. Even then, I’m not sure the descendants are responsible for the debts of their ancestors