Britain doesn't have the 2nd Amendment...so criminals have guns, just murdered 9 year old, in gun free Britain...

[2aguy]

Sadly you do. We started down your road until the Dunblane massacre in 1966. That was our wake up call and so far it has worked, unlike in the US, where children seem to be massacred on a regular basis.

How has it worked? You guys had one mass public shooting every 10 years before you banned guns....since you banned guns you have had about 1 mass public shooting every 10 years, the last one last year in Plymouth....5 people murdered.....

Before you banned guns you had a low gun murder rate......and now your gun crime rate is going up, and your gun murder rate has stayed the same...

In science, if you remove a variable and nothing changes, that variable had nothing to do with the cause and effect you are looking for..........

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

No...I just posted 18 different studies.....I use the 1.2 number because it comes directly from the Centers for Disease Control research...but it is just one of 18..........

And yes, over 5,000 is a huge sample size for research of this type.....you dumb ass....

PLEASE I'm begging you: LEARN HOW TO USE PUNCTUATION!

Reading your posts is like looking at the scrawl of some brain damaged little kid! What is your malfunction? Are you really so stupid you can't write like an adult?

Moron.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

You mean because I think it's INCREDIBLY stupid to arm teachers? Something is wrong with me?

LOL.

You are one to talk. Are you one of those gun lovers who doesn't mind seeing dead kids?

It is incredibly stupid to arm teachers – it’s reckless and irresponsible.

As noted in post 149, teachers lack the training and experience to offer safe, effective self-defense in the chaotic environment of an active shooting incident.

Armed teachers would result in teachers shooting and killing students and other teachers, not the intruder.

 

[2aguy]

It is incredibly stupid to arm teachers – it’s reckless and irresponsible.

As noted in post 149, teachers lack the training and experience to offer safe, effective self-defense in the chaotic environment of an active shooting incident.

Armed teachers would result in teachers shooting and killing students and other teachers, not the intruder.

And yet 18 states already do this without a problem...so your irrational fears are, of course, unfounded....which is typical of any of the issues revolving around guns and you anti-gun fanatics...

18 states currently have teachers and staff who can carry permitted concealed handguns, though the rules vary considerably across the states.

One moment, please...

 

[2aguy]

It is incredibly stupid to arm teachers – it’s reckless and irresponsible.

As noted in post 149, teachers lack the training and experience to offer safe, effective self-defense in the chaotic environment of an active shooting incident.

Armed teachers would result in teachers shooting and killing students and other teachers, not the intruder.

You can post that with the knowledge of Uvalde....where 400 police officers sat outside of a classroom for 90 minutes while a nut murdered 21 teachers and students........

At the same time, in West Virginia, a civilian woman, with her concealed handgun, stopped another mass public shooter, who was also armed with an AR-15 rifle....

At the same time, that same week we had another mass public shooter at an Indiana mall, and a civilian, with their concealed carry pistol, shot and killed the attacker 15 seconds after he began shooting people...and that shooter also had an AR-15 rifle...

Nothing you post about guns is even remotely close to being accurate or based in the reality of civilian gun ownership....

 

[Vagabond63]

I use the 1.2 number because it comes directly from the Centers for Disease Control research

Really? I must have missed that, care to provide a direct link to the actual CDC report where it actually states this number?

 

[Vagabond63]

And yes, over 5,000 is a huge sample size for research of this type.....you dumb ass....

Blah, blah, did you know that using the same methodology as these studies, and using their extrapolations, 3 million Americans are abducted by aliens every year!

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

You can post that with the knowledge of Uvalde....where 400 police officers sat outside of a classroom for 90 minutes while a nut murdered 21 teachers and students........

I think Uvalde showed us what most ammosexuals would do when the bullets start flying. Hide and cower.

I suspect most of you ammosexuals are just paper tigers. You fantasize about being a big hero. But you are too scared of everyone and everything.

All you do is fantasize about killing everyone that scares you with your mighty gun. Because you are a little pussy.

Try dealing with the world like an adult and NOT go for your guns like you are John Wayne. You aren't. You're probably going to be more of a danger in a shooting situation than you will be a help.

At the same time, in West Virginia, a civilian woman, with her concealed handgun, stopped another mass public shooter, who was also armed with an AR-15 rifle....

Maybe you should get a sex change operation. Or keep flogging this one instance like it's a dead horse.

Nothing you post about guns is even remotely close to being accurate or based in the reality of civilian gun ownership....

Like the shit you pedal is any better.

 

[2aguy]

I think Uvalde showed us what most ammosexuals would do when the bullets start flying. Hide and cower.

I suspect most of you ammosexuals are just paper tigers. You fantasize about being a big hero. But you are too scared of everyone and everything.

All you do is fantasize about killing everyone that scares you with your mighty gun. Because you are a little pussy.

Try dealing with the world like an adult and NOT go for your guns like you are John Wayne. You aren't. You're probably going to be more of a danger in a shooting situation than you will be a help.

Maybe you should get a sex change operation. Or keep flogging this one instance like it's a dead horse.



Like the shit you pedal is any better.

Moron......400 trained police officers......waited 90 minutes...

In the Indiana mall, the guy with his own gun, a civilian with no police or military training, stopped a mass public shooter who was armed with an AR-15 rifle, like the Uvalde shooter, in 15 seconds after the attacker started shooting....

Dittos the woman in West Virginia who also used her concealed carry pistol to stop another mass public shooter armed with an AR-15 rifle...both her and the guy in Indiana within two weeks of the Uvalde attack....

Again, you know so little about so little and you know it with so much conviction it is really sad....

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Moron......400 trained police officers......waited 90 minutes...

Just like you would, I suspect. I assume you are a big talker too.

Again, you know so little about so little and you know it with so much conviction it is really sad....

I know people reasonably well. I know your type. Big man talker. Usually turns into a pussy or an incompetent when the going gets tough.

Don't be hard on yourself, though. It's pretty common. It's just funnier with you guys and your gun hobby.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

You can post that with the knowledge of Uvalde....where 400 police officers sat outside of a classroom for 90 minutes while a nut murdered 21 teachers and students........

At the same time, in West Virginia, a civilian woman, with her concealed handgun, stopped another mass public shooter, who was also armed with an AR-15 rifle....

At the same time, that same week we had another mass public shooter at an Indiana mall, and a civilian, with their concealed carry pistol, shot and killed the attacker 15 seconds after he began shooting people...and that shooter also had an AR-15 rifle...

Nothing you post about guns is even remotely close to being accurate or based in the reality of civilian gun ownership....

Seriously, dude, do you NOT know what an actual period or comma are? You must really be special needs.

You shouldn't have a gun if you couldn't make it through elementary school.

 

[2aguy]

Really? I must have missed that, care to provide a direct link to the actual CDC report where it actually states this number?

I notice you want to focus on the CDC because they buried their data.....while you do your best to ignore the other 17 studies on the same topic....but here is all of the information on the Centers for Disease Control research, their data that they hid when they realized it backed up and supported the findings of Kleck's work......something they didn't want to do, so they buried their research...

SSRN Electronic Library

Abstract​

In 1996, 1997, and 1998, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) conducted large-scale surveys asking about defensive gun use (DGU) in four to seven states. Analysis of the raw data allows the estimation of the prevalence of DGU for those areas. Data pertaining to the same sets of states from the 1993 National Self-Defense Survey (Kleck and Gertz 1995) allow these results to be extrapolated to the U.S. as a whole. CDC’s survey data confirm previous high estimates of DGU prevalence, disconfirm estimates derived from the National Crime Victimization Survey, and indicate that defensive uses of guns by crime victims are far more common than offensive uses by criminals. CDC has never reported these results.

=========



Reason article on the revised paper..



in direct response to queries from Reason, who first directly notified Kleck of his error, he worked through and has since issued a revised version of the paper, published as was the original as a working paper on the Social Science Research Network. In the new version, Kleck re-analyzes the BRFSS survey data accurately as limited to a small number of states, and ultimately concludes, when their surveys are analyzed in conjunction with his NSDS, that their surveys indicate likely over 1 million defensive uses of guns (DGUs) a year nationally, compared to the over 2 million of his own NSDS.

Here's how Kleck got to that new conclusion. The BRFSS, as Kleck describes it in his paper, "are high-quality telephone surveys of very large probability samples of U.S. adults…even just the subset of four to seven state surveys that asked about DGU in 1996-1998 interviewed 3,197-4,500 adults, depending on the year. This is more people than were asked about this topic in any other surveys, other than the National Self-Defense Survey conducted in 1993 by Kleck and Gertz (1995), who asked DGU questions of 4,977 people." The BRFSS asked about defensive uses of guns in seven states in 1996, seven in 1997, and four in 1998.

Kleck judged the "wording of the DGU question in the BRFSS surveys" as "also excellent, avoiding many problems with the wording that afflicted the DGU questions used in other surveys."

The BRFSS results were designed to exclude "uses by military, police and others with firearm-related jobs" and "uses against animals." The survey was designed to garner "yes" answers as long as a gun was used in presumed self-defense in any location (not just the home), whether or not the gun was actually fired (as, per Kleck's survey, around 3/4 of the time one needn't fire the gun to have found it useful in deterring an intruder or attacker).



A Second Look at a Controversial Study About Defensive Gun Use



-------



Original version before he went back to revise it...

The actual paper by Kleck revealing the CDC hiding data..



SSRN Electronic Library

The timing of CDC’s addition of a DGU question to the BRFSS is of some interest. Prior to 1996, the BRFSS had never included a question about DGU. Kleck and Gertz (1995) conducted their survey in February through April 1993, presented their estimate that there were over 2 million DGUs in 1992 at the annual meetings of the American Society of Criminology in November 1994, and published it in the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology in the Fall of 1995. CDC added a DGU question to the BRFSS the very first year they could do so after that 1995 publication, in the 1996 edition. CDC was not the only federal agency during the Clinton administration to field a survey addressing the prevalence of DGU at that particular time. The National Institute of Justice (NIJ) financed a national survey devoting even more detailed attention to estimating DGU prevalence, which was fielded in November and December 1994, just months after preliminary results of the 1993 Kleck/Gertz survey became known. Neither CDC nor NIJ had ever financed research into DGU before 1996. Perhaps there was just “something in the air” that motivated the two agencies to suddenly decide in 1994 to address the topic. Another interpretation, however, is that fielding of the surveys was triggered by the Kleck/Gertz findings that DGU was common, and that these agencies hoped to obtain lower DGU prevalence estimates than those obtained by Kleck/Gertz. Low estimates would have implied fewer beneficial uses of firearms, results that would have been far more congenial to the strongly pro-control positions of the Clinton administration.


CDC, in Surveys It Never Bothered Making Public, Provides More Evidence That Plenty of Americans Innocently Defend Themselves with Guns



Kleck's new paper—"What Do CDC's Surveys Say About the Frequency of Defensive Gun Uses?"—finds that the agency had asked about DGUs in its Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System in 1996, 1997, and 1998.

Those polls, Kleck writes,

are high-quality telephone surveys of enormous probability samples of U.S. adults, asking about a wide range of health-related topics. Those that addressed DGU asked more people about this topic than any other surveys conducted before or since. For example, the 1996 survey asked the DGU question of 5,484 people. The next-largest number questioned about DGU was 4,977 by Kleck and Gertz (1995), and sample sizes were much smaller in all the rest of surveys on the topic (Kleck 2001).

Kleck was impressed with how well the survey worded its question: "During the last 12 months, have you confronted another person with a firearm, even if you did not fire it, to protect yourself, your property, or someone else?" Respondents were told to leave out incidents from occupations, like policing, where using firearms is part of the job. Kleck is impressed with how the question excludes animals but includes DGUs outside the home as well as within it.

Kleck is less impressed with the fact that the question was only asked of people who admitted to owning guns in their home earlier in the survey, and that they asked no follow-up questions regarding the specific nature of the DGU incident.

From Kleck's own surveys, he found that only 79 percent of those who reported a DGU "had also reported a gun in their household at the time of the interview," so he thinks whatever numbers the CDC found need to be revised upward to account for that. (Kleck speculates that CDC showed a sudden interest in the question of DGUs starting in 1996 because Kleck's own famous/notorious survey had been published in 1995.)

At any rate, Kleck downloaded the datasets for those three years and found that the "weighted percent who reported a DGU...was 1.3% in 1996, 0.9% in 1997, 1.0% in 1998, and 1.07% in all three surveys combined."





Kleck figures if you do the adjustment upward he thinks necessary for those who had DGU incidents without personally owning a gun in the home at the time of the survey, and then the adjustment downward he thinks necessary because CDC didn't do detailed follow-ups to confirm the nature of the incident, you get 1.24 percent, a close match to his own 1.326 percent figure.

He concludes that the small difference between his estimate and the CDC's "can be attributed to declining rates of violent crime, which accounts for most DGUs. With fewer occasions for self-defense in the form of violent victimizations, one would expect fewer DGUs."

Kleck further details how much these CDC surveys confirmed his own controversial work:

The final adjusted prevalence of 1.24% therefore implies that in an average year during 1996–1998, 2.46 million U.S. adults used a gun for self-defense.

This estimate, based on an enormous sample of 12,870 cases (unweighted) in a nationally representative sample, strongly confirms the 2.5 million past-12-months estimate obtained Kleck and Gertz (1995)....CDC's results, then, imply that guns were used defensively by victims about 3.6 times as often as they were used offensively by criminals.

 

[Vagabond63]

You guys had one mass public shooting every 10 years before you banned guns...

No we didn't. We had 1 in 1987, 1 in 1996 which brought in the handgun ban, and no mass shootings involving handguns since. The other mass shootings were committed using rifles and or shotguns, which have not been banned in the UK.

 

[2aguy]

No we didn't. We had 1 in 1987, 1 in 1996 which brought in the handgun ban, and no mass shootings involving handguns since. The other mass shootings were committed using rifles and or shotguns, which have not been banned in the UK.

Handguns? Moron, you had 1 mass public shooting every 10 years.......it doesn't matter what gun was used, you lying dumb ass....

And criminals are getting all the handguns they want, as your police admit......

 

[2aguy]

No we didn't. We had 1 in 1987, 1 in 1996 which brought in the handgun ban, and no mass shootings involving handguns since. The other mass shootings were committed using rifles and or shotguns, which have not been banned in the UK.

And here ......

Gun offences had been increasing since roughly 2015 across England and Wales, according to figures from the Office of National Statistics. But then came the pandemic.

Are gun crimes on the rise again?​

Dr Robert Hesketh, from the School of Justice Studies at Liverpool John Moores University, thinks the incidents will increase because of the cost of living crisis.
"People are getting desperate and desperate times call for desperate measures," he said.

Dr Hesketh disagreed with senior police officers, who say it is hard for a criminal to buy a gun in Britain.

The academic instead suggested in Liverpool a cheap firearm can be obtained for as little as £150 with a bit of asking around.

Gun crime is closely linked with drug dealing. At the top of the criminal tree drug gangs arrange imports to sell in the UK.
The retail arm of the market has become dominated by a relatively new business model.
County lines gangs, using dedicated mobile phones for customers to make orders, shift drugs around the country and have been blamed for increasing the risk of violence involving guns and knives.
Liverpool is an important part of the UK's drug gang infrastructure.

Liverpool shootings: Are UK gun crimes on the rise again?

There have been seven killings in Liverpool and London since July, with shootings rising in Merseyside.

www.bbc.com

 

[Vagabond63]

I notice you want to focus on the CDC because they buried their data.....

No, I want you to provide a direct link to where the CDC stated that there are 1.2 million DGUs in the USA annually, that is what you keep insisting is the source of the figure you keep on regurgitating, so once again, please provide the actual link to the CDC quoting that number.

 

[Vagabond63]

Moron, you had 1 mass public shooting every 10 years..

Prove it.

 

[Vagabond63]

And here ......

Liverpool shootings: Are UK gun crimes on the rise again?

There have been seven killings in Liverpool and London since July, with shootings rising in Merseyside.

www.bbc.com

Oh, we're back to counting criminals using illegal handguns now. None of the above was a mass shooting, but targeted assassination attempts by drug gangs against rival drug gang members.

 

[2aguy]

Oh, we're back to counting criminals using illegal handguns now. None of the above was a mass shooting, but targeted assassination attempts by drug gangs against rival drug gang members.

Wrong, again.....you are trying to confuse the issue, again.......the mass public shootings in Britain were nuts shooting strangers, just like here in the U.S.......you have them once every 10 years or so for now......you had them once every 10 years or so back when you had handguns...

You take the guns away, and you have the same number of mass public shootings....so guns are not driving mass public shootings in Britain...........

Meanwhile, in the U.S.....with over 350 million Americans, we had 6 mass public shootings last year.....6 people out of over 350 million........with all of our guns in private hands......

total killed by mass public shooters in 2021? 43

Number of people killed by deer every year.....200

Number of people killed by ladders every year....300

Number of people killed by lawn mowers every year, between 90-100

Meanwhile, Americans, on average, use their legal guns to stop violent criminal 1.2 million times a year.......according to the Centers for Disease Control....1.5 million according to the Department of Justice......or 2.5 million according to Gary Kleck's Research.....just 3 out of 18 studies on the topic.....

Rapes, robberies, murders, beatings and stabbings stopped by armed civilians in America....

 

[2aguy]

Prove it.

Here...

Category:Mass shootings in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org