Bridge the gap between Israel and Palestine?

[Hyrcanus]

If you dont think you engaged in a strawman argument with that last post I have news fro you.
Israel discriminates against Palestinians who try to kill Israelis. It discriminates against Palestinians who aid and abet those trying to kill Israelis. It protects Palestinians otherwise. Israelis are citizens of Israel. Of course the IDF protects them (although settlers in the Gaza might have a different view). Palis in the territories are not Israeli citizens. See the difference?

No, Israel discriminates against Palestinians regardless of their actions or views.

Israel controls the West Bank and as the legal controller of that land, is obliged to protect the rights of all its inhabitants and treat all inhabitants, Jew or Gentile, equally.

That was a requirement of the Balfour Declaration and the Palestine Mandate.

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

Remember her?

She's still looking for justice.

and that is?

She is the survivor of the Fogel family massacre.

Itamar attack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why not have a look for pictures of her slain family including her three month old baby sister murdered in cold blood.


.

 

[Hyrcanus]

She is the survivor of the Fogel family massacre.

Itamar attack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why not have a look for pictures of her slain family including her three month old baby sister murdered in cold blood.

Tragic.

Both sides have suffered.

 

[The Rabbi]

If you dont think you engaged in a strawman argument with that last post I have news fro you.
Israel discriminates against Palestinians who try to kill Israelis. It discriminates against Palestinians who aid and abet those trying to kill Israelis. It protects Palestinians otherwise. Israelis are citizens of Israel. Of course the IDF protects them (although settlers in the Gaza might have a different view). Palis in the territories are not Israeli citizens. See the difference?

No, Israel discriminates against Palestinians regardless of their actions or views.

Israel controls the West Bank and as the legal controller of that land, is obliged to protect the rights of all its inhabitants and treat all inhabitants, Jew or Gentile, equally.

That was a requirement of the Balfour Declaration and the Palestine Mandate.

That is unproven. In fact it is downright false. All of it.
And the Balfour Declaration is not binding on Israel, nor is the Palestine Mandate.

 

[Hyrcanus]

That is unproven. In fact it is downright false. All of it.
And the Balfour Declaration is not binding on Israel, nor is the Palestine Mandate.

What is unproven? That the Palestinians face discrimination in the West Bank?

When's the last time the Israeli govt. argued before the Supreme Court that it should retro-actively legalize Israelis settlements that were built illegally?

That the Palestine Mandate didn't require the Jews to protect and respect the rights of Gentiles in Palestine? Well I guess you never read the details of the Palestine Mandate or the Balfour Declaration.

Funny, how others have argued that Israel has the right to settle Jews in the West Bank BECAUSE the Palestine Mandate is still in affect.

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

That is unproven. In fact it is downright false. All of it.
And the Balfour Declaration is not binding on Israel, nor is the Palestine Mandate.

What is unproven? That the Palestinians face discrimination in the West Bank?

When's the last time the Israeli govt. argued before the Supreme Court that it should retro-actively legalize Israelis settlements that were built illegally?

That the Palestine Mandate didn't require the Jews to protect and respect the rights of Gentiles in Palestine? Well I guess you never read the details of the Palestine Mandate or the Balfour Declaration.

Funny, how others have argued that Israel has the right to settle Jews in the West Bank BECAUSE the Palestine Mandate is still in affect.

Yes, the San Remo Mandate is still in effect and always has been.

These will take time to view but explains the legality.​

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_WVm8SacS4]Howard Grief - Israels Legal Borders Under International Law - Part 1 of 3 - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VV_HMfzVDc]Howard Grief - Israels Legal Borders Under International Law - Part 2 of 3 - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWJb8qY5KZ8]Howard Grief - Israels Legal Borders Under International Law - Part 3 of 3 - YouTube[/ame]

I would highly recommend this book by Professor Howard Grief.

Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: The Legal Foundation And Borders Of Israel Under International Law:
A Treatise on Jewish Sovereignty over the Land of Israel
​

Here is a reader review of the book.
​

This excellent detailed study by Professor Howard Grief addressing both Israel's legal foundation and borders is an absolute must read. The culmination of 25 years of study addresses a plethora of issues including the San Remo peace conference & a detailed appraisal of the Palestine Mandate, including its original intent, interpretation and application.

The study pulls no punches in showing that the Balfour Declaration, Mandate and League of Nations were intent upon the rebirth of not just a Jewish national home but a Jewish state based upon a historical formula founded upon the 1st/2nd Temple period territories, including lands up to the Litani Valley in present day Lebanon. The present borders of Israel are shown to be clearly not those originally designated for the Jewish people by the aforementioned international agreements.

Detailed reference reveals how it was originally agreed between Britain & France that the borders of a Jewish Palestine would be based on the historical or Biblical formula, "from Dan to Beersheba", a phrase appearing several times in the Bible.

This shown to have been interpreted up until 1920 by Prime Minister Lloyd George & other British officials to mean that Palestine would include all the lands or regions historically associated with the Jewish People. That is all territory which at one time or other was conquered, settled & governed by the Israelites in the 1st /2nd Temple periods.

The historical formula for determining these boundaries was accepted at the San Remo Peace Conference & referred to to in the Mandate Charter, which referred to the historical connection of the Jewish People with Palestine. The British themselves relying on George Adam Smith's "Atlas of the Historical Geography of the Holy Land", published in 1915, in particular on Plate No. 34 that depicted the territory under David and Solomon.

The book makes sobering reading as the British are shown to have not abided by their obligations under the Mandate, instead giving precedence to their own political self interests, regional expedience & their relationship with the Arab/Islamic world. The influence of French interests in the region also playing a considerable part as Western entities reneged upon their responsibilities & obligations pertaining to a Jewish home/state in what was Palestine.

The reader is shown how international agreements then made & still make it quite clear today, that Israel had/has a perfect legal right to settle land in the disputed territories in 1967, since this was the right assigned to the Jewish people under International Law. Law which continues to be in force despite the political nuances of today which are expedient to the larger pro-Arab international community.

Self serving political machinations & expedience are again shown when, under Article 5 of the Mandate Britain - which was not allowed to partition the land - Britain then did so by severing 77% to create the Arab state of Transjordan which, from the moment of its creation, was closed to all Jewish migration and settlement - a clear betrayal of the British promise the tones of which resound even now.

Under Article 6 of the Mandate Britain,was supposed to encourage Jewish immigration % settlement all over the now disputed territory - a Jewish right which exists to this day under International Law, despite the Mandate treaty's enactment in 1948.

Yet Britain is shown to have reneged upon this responsibility too. British foreign policy of the time, extending to the present day, shown to be that of appeasing the Arab/Islamic world as it appears to continually sacrifice Israel upon the altar of political expedience.

In November 1938 the British 'Cabinet Committee For Palestine' held a meeting which effectively resulted in the reneging upon of the Balfour Declaration & the League of Nations Mandate. Foreign Secretary, Lord Halifax, told the Committee that "the Government would have to choose between it's commitments to the world of Jewry & it's commitments to the world of Islam..." It was subsequently decided that Britain could not afford to antagonise the Muslim world. This resulted in the British White Paper of 1939 which served to appease the Arab/Islamic world & severely restricted Jewish immigration to Palestine. This was the British policy as the Holocaust descended upon the Jews of Europe.

It is virtually impossible to do justice to the vast amount of evidence available in this 700+ page study. I can but highly recommend this work to anyone interesting in the Jewish state, the Arab-Israeli conflict & the manner in which the latter is portrayed/perceived in our day.

With such a vast array of facts at your fingertips the individual is left to ponder a number of issues. Not least being how the international community has seemingly side-stepped history & embraced the creation of a Palestinian state in territories promised to the Jewish people & to which they have a heritage spanning many thousands of years. The prerequisite of such a state's creation being the removal/ethnic cleansing of the entire Jewish presence from these areas.

With due reference to the contents of this study, the conviction that Jewish settlements in the West Bank are illegal is now so commonly accepted, it hardly seems as though the matter is even open for discussion. Such a case is blown completely out of the water by reference to the factual history. Though routinely referred to nowadays as "Palestinian" land, at no point in history has Jerusalem or the West Bank (Judea and Samaria) been under Palestinian sovereignty in any sense of the term.

In the face of skilfully orchestrated revisionist history and a tidal wave of anti-Israeli propaganda, this compelling account shows the reader is shown how the public is clearly being completely and utterly deceived by the manner in which the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is being presented to them. This is a book that desperately needs to be read & re-read. International leaders, including those within Israel itself, need to avail themselves of the information provided here.



.

 

[Lipush]

Remember her?

She's still looking for justice.

and that is?

A precious souvenir of a family butchered.

That girl is Tamar Fogel.

 

[georgephillip]

Remember her?

She's still looking for justice.

and that is?

A precious souvenir of a family butchered.

That girl is Tamar Fogel.

"The Impact of the Conflict
on Children

129 Israeli children and 1,519 Palestinian children
have been killed since September 29, 2000."

Palestinian and Israeli Children Killed

How many Jewish children are rotting in Palestinian prisons and jails?

 

[FA_Q2]

The genocide card is one that Israel has played continuously- and shamelessly- since the 1940's. In times of high stress, such as war, people will make extreme statements, especially in the Arab world, which tends more towards hyperbole. At times, prominent Jews have made similar statements about wiping out the Palestinians.

I think it is important to look towards more responsible people and institutions. Today the Arab League, and the PA, have a position that urges peace based on 1967 boundaries, with minor adjustments here and there as required, establishment of trade and normal relations, and some sort of just resolution of the Arab refugee issue. This latter has been left open, and may mean compensation rather than massive return of a population. It is a reasonable deal, and is a heck of a long way from "genocide".

The image of Jews being slaughtered wholesale has been a tool to obtain favor in the US, and a very successful one. It is an insult, when you think about it, to the millions of Jews who actually were slaughtered in WW2.

You will note that I never mentioned anything about ‘Jews being slaughtered wholesale’ at all. The Jews are actually the ones doing much of the killing as they have the capability that the Palestinians simply lack but that does not take away from the fact that the Palestinians have an extremist section that wants to end all things Jew and take over Israel. I don’t think that animosity that has built up on BOTH sides from all the bloodshed is simply going to vanish because of some random agreement or even a ‘representative’ coming up with an agreement with Israel. I would doubt that many people there do not know someone or another that has been killed or wronged in some way by the other side.

You seem to get my post wrong in that Israel is not part of that hate or killing. That is not what I was getting at. After all that killing and the years of tension, both sides are full of those that simply are not going to get along. I don’t see a viable solution here, particularly one that includes the people getting along. The 1967 borders is a non-issue. The idea that simply drawing lines on a map is suddenly going to stop people from bombing schools, killing citizens and military retaliations is little more than a pipe dream. The tensions are not going to go away because of lines on a map. Terrorists are still going to kill civilians and Israelis are still going to think that a tomahawk missile is a proper tool to kill that guy in a taxi.

Any solution for real peace there MUST include a basic shift in culture. That is a HUGE order and nigh impossible for any outside element to impose. As a matter of fact, external forces are likely making that transition HARDER. The people have to get tired of the killing and it seems that there is an inexastable well of patience when it comes to that in that area.

Fair enough. These are good points. Given the choice though, the vast majority will, I believe, prefer some sort of settlement, and getting on with lives, than perpetual war. A one sided settlement is not going to end anything however- it must be based on reason and compromise. To date, Israel has not been able to subscribe to those principles.

We have evidence in history of conflict coming to an end, even the most horrific. Japan, for just one example, was bombed with nuclear weapons in 1945; ten years later Japanese were embracing zoot suits, jazz, and other elements of US culture. People move on. They can do so in the Middle East as well.

How much is the ‘vast’ majority though? 80%? 90%? 99%?

None of that is good enough. The reality here is that the vast majority is simply not good enough. Even if 99 out of a hundred people are tired of the killing that last person will kill and he will create 2 more that are willing to kill after him. When someone blows up your children, you tend to want to get some revenge. It is a vicious circle that has gone on two long there. Neither side accepts the other. The Israelis feel threatened by terrorist Palestinians. This is not unjustified either. Israelis are killed regularly by Palestinian terrorists and it is their right to defend themselves. The Palestinians feel subjugated and oppressed. This is also not unjustified as the Israeli response to being shot at is nothing to snub at. They obliterate those that are enemies.

The problem is that the Palestinian terrorism creates the Israeli reaction that creates the Palestinian terrorism that creates…

Japan is not a valid comparison either. USA might have bombed an entire city BUT they do not live with Americans. Americans are not buying homes and working next to them. Memories fade and atrocities are left by the wayside when you are not staring at the perpetrator on a continual basis. Palestinians and Israelis deal with each other on a daily basis. It leaves little time for the thoughts and memories to fade.

so?

[this was in response to the official religion offshoot]

So, the official religion of Israel is of importance when discussing the ability for them to find a peaceable solution with Arabs that are Islamic. It is quite difficult for 2 peoples to work to a peaceful end when the differences are highlighted and continually pointed out. This is exacerbated when one is treated differently.

Israel can do itself no favors if it treats Palestinians differently.

Now, separate from the quotes above, something that really should be said at this point is that the validity of Israel’s response to the Palestinian threat, its claims over the land and the scale of its reprisals are essentially irrelevant. It does not matter how legal the Israeli ‘occupation’ (if people insist on using that term) is. It does not matter if their response to the bombing is too much or if the Palestinian violence is justified or their claims are accurate. The fact is that the Palestinians are not going anywhere and the Israelis are not going anywhere. Both have nowhere else to go and both value that land far too much. Clearly the Israeli actions to end the killing are not working and clearly the Palestinian terrorism is not affecting change that is positive for the Palestinians. They need to take a good look at what is going on because neither of them are getting the results that they want from the actions that they are taking.

 

[The Rabbi]

Now, separate from the quotes above, something that really should be said at this point is that the validity of Israel’s response to the Palestinian threat, its claims over the land and the scale of its reprisals are essentially irrelevant. It does not matter how legal the Israeli ‘occupation’ (if people insist on using that term) is. It does not matter if their response to the bombing is too much or if the Palestinian violence is justified or their claims are accurate. The fact is that the Palestinians are not going anywhere and the Israelis are not going anywhere. Both have nowhere else to go and both value that land far too much. Clearly the Israeli actions to end the killing are not working and clearly the Palestinian terrorism is not affecting change that is positive for the Palestinians. They need to take a good look at what is going on because neither of them are getting the results that they want from the actions that they are taking.

This is true. Both sides are influenced by outside forces. Palestinians get material and emotional support from other ARab countries and expats. Israel gets restraint from the US and Europe. Both sides need to be allowed to work it out on their own.
Work it out here means that Israel should do what any nation faced with a hostile force on its border would do. Relocate them and bomb the shit out of the remainder.

 

[Hyrcanus]

This is true. Both sides are influenced by outside forces. Palestinians get material and emotional support from other ARab countries and expats. Israel gets restraint from the US and Europe. Both sides need to be allowed to work it out on their own.
Work it out here means that Israel should do what any nation faced with a hostile force on its border would do. Relocate them and bomb the shit out of the remainder.

Seeking to ethnically cleanse Israel of all Arabs is very ironic, considering that this is exactly the kind of thing anti-Semites have been doing to the Jews for 2,000 years.

 

[The Rabbi]

This is true. Both sides are influenced by outside forces. Palestinians get material and emotional support from other ARab countries and expats. Israel gets restraint from the US and Europe. Both sides need to be allowed to work it out on their own.
Work it out here means that Israel should do what any nation faced with a hostile force on its border would do. Relocate them and bomb the shit out of the remainder.

Seeking to ethnically cleanse Israel of all Arabs is very ironic, considering that this is exactly the kind of thing anti-Semites have been doing to the Jews for 2,000 years.

Were Jews blowing up buses and pizza shops during that time? No, I dont think so.
What is ironic is an avowed anti semite pretending to be even handed.

 

[Hyrcanus]

Were Jews blowing up buses and pizza shops during that time? No, I dont think so.
What is ironic is an avowed anti semite pretending to be even handed.

I am NOT an anti-Semite.

Do not call me that again in this thread.

 

[MHunterB]

"The Israeli occupation of the OPT violates the three basic tenets of the
normative regime of occupation and is, therefore, intrinsically illegal. This section discusses the basic principles informing this normative regime and then applies them to the Israeli occupation."

http://scholarship.law.berkeley.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1299&context=bjil (P.9)

For decades Zionists flooded Palestine with illegal immigrants with a single goal in mind: take sole possession of all the land from the River to the sea and transfer or kill any indigenous "inferiors" who failed to step aside for the "Chosen People."

And the poster has documentation of all the 'Zionists' having the same single goal? Incidentally, the poster is completely MIS-applying the concept of 'chosen people' : it has nothing to do with politics. The usage here is so very inaccurate as to give offense: it's the verbal equivalent of tossing pennies.

It is not Judaism which presumes to declare itself the 'One True TRUTH' for every tribe of Man, not even 'the best, most pure of all religions. It is the other Abrahamic faiths which presume themselves to be 'God's Intended' religion for all of us - only the Baha'i being also wedded to pacifism and eschewing political involvement have separated themselves from Islam and Christianity (Of course in all references I'm speaking of 'normative mainstream' religious interpretation)

 

[FA_Q2]

Now, separate from the quotes above, something that really should be said at this point is that the validity of Israel’s response to the Palestinian threat, its claims over the land and the scale of its reprisals are essentially irrelevant. It does not matter how legal the Israeli ‘occupation’ (if people insist on using that term) is. It does not matter if their response to the bombing is too much or if the Palestinian violence is justified or their claims are accurate. The fact is that the Palestinians are not going anywhere and the Israelis are not going anywhere. Both have nowhere else to go and both value that land far too much. Clearly the Israeli actions to end the killing are not working and clearly the Palestinian terrorism is not affecting change that is positive for the Palestinians. They need to take a good look at what is going on because neither of them are getting the results that they want from the actions that they are taking.

This is true. Both sides are influenced by outside forces. Palestinians get material and emotional support from other ARab countries and expats. Israel gets restraint from the US and Europe. Both sides need to be allowed to work it out on their own.
Work it out here means that Israel should do what any nation faced with a hostile force on its border would do. Relocate them and bomb the shit out of the remainder.

Such would be highly unlikely to solve the problem. It is more likely to exacerbate it.

People usually do not react to being exterminated by ceasing hostilities. Instead, they fight for their lives. Ethnic cleansing BTW is not pretty nor is it ever morally justifiable. Ever.

 

[Hyrcanus]

People usually do not react to being exterminated by ceasing hostilities. Instead, they fight for their lives. Ethnic cleansing BTW is not pretty nor is it ever morally justifiable. Ever.

Suggesting that the Jews ethnically cleanse their land of all Arabs, is disgusting and pathetic. Especially considering what the Nazis tried to do to us along with all the exiles and expulsions we have suffered at the hands of the Crusaders, Spanish, Russians, etc.

And to suggest that any Arabs who refuse to leave will be exterminated? Unbelievable.

 

[MHunterB]

This is true. Both sides are influenced by outside forces. Palestinians get material and emotional support from other ARab countries and expats. Israel gets restraint from the US and Europe. Both sides need to be allowed to work it out on their own.
Work it out here means that Israel should do what any nation faced with a hostile force on its border would do. Relocate them and bomb the shit out of the remainder.

Seeking to ethnically cleanse Israel of all Arabs is very ironic, considering that this is exactly the kind of thing anti-Semites have been doing to the Jews for 2,000 years.

And again you are in error here: it's more like 3,000 years..... Just a detail, I know : ))

 

[The Rabbi]

Now, separate from the quotes above, something that really should be said at this point is that the validity of Israel’s response to the Palestinian threat, its claims over the land and the scale of its reprisals are essentially irrelevant. It does not matter how legal the Israeli ‘occupation’ (if people insist on using that term) is. It does not matter if their response to the bombing is too much or if the Palestinian violence is justified or their claims are accurate. The fact is that the Palestinians are not going anywhere and the Israelis are not going anywhere. Both have nowhere else to go and both value that land far too much. Clearly the Israeli actions to end the killing are not working and clearly the Palestinian terrorism is not affecting change that is positive for the Palestinians. They need to take a good look at what is going on because neither of them are getting the results that they want from the actions that they are taking.

This is true. Both sides are influenced by outside forces. Palestinians get material and emotional support from other ARab countries and expats. Israel gets restraint from the US and Europe. Both sides need to be allowed to work it out on their own.
Work it out here means that Israel should do what any nation faced with a hostile force on its border would do. Relocate them and bomb the shit out of the remainder.

Such would be highly unlikely to solve the problem. It is more likely to exacerbate it.

People usually do not react to being exterminated by ceasing hostilities. Instead, they fight for their lives. Ethnic cleansing BTW is not pretty nor is it ever morally justifiable. Ever.

What is a reasonable solution for a first world culture facing continued attacks by a 3rd world culture which is dedicated to its destruction?
There is no pretty solution to this. But continued terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians is even less pretty. The world is OK with dead Jews. It isn't so great about Jews fighting back and defending themselves.

Can you imagine the outcry in this country if Mexican drug gangs started committing terrorist acts across the border? We're already pushing for militarization of the border.

 

[Hyrcanus]

What is a reasonable solution for a first world culture facing continued attacks by a 3rd world culture which is dedicated to its destruction?
There is no pretty solution to this. But continued terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians is even less pretty. The world is OK with dead Jews. It isn't so great about Jews fighting back and defending themselves.

strawman.

The world congratulated the Jews when they defeated the Arab world in 1948.

There are no more terrorist attacks coming from the West Bank, only Gaza.

Wanting to collectively punish millions of West Bank Palestinians for the war crimes of a few thousand terrorists in Gaza, by ethnically cleansing them all to another country, would be a crime against humanity and bring the wrath of the world upon Israel.

 

[MHunterB]

"There are no more terrorist attacks coming from the West Bank, only Gaza."

Tell that to Tamar Fogel. Or Adelle Biton's mother......