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If you dont think you engaged in a strawman argument with that last post I have news fro you.
Israel discriminates against Palestinians who try to kill Israelis. It discriminates against Palestinians who aid and abet those trying to kill Israelis. It protects Palestinians otherwise. Israelis are citizens of Israel. Of course the IDF protects them (although settlers in the Gaza might have a different view). Palis in the territories are not Israeli citizens. See the difference?
Remember her?
She's still looking for justice.
and that is?
She is the survivor of the Fogel family massacre.
Itamar attack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Why not have a look for pictures of her slain family including her three month old baby sister murdered in cold blood.
If you dont think you engaged in a strawman argument with that last post I have news fro you.
Israel discriminates against Palestinians who try to kill Israelis. It discriminates against Palestinians who aid and abet those trying to kill Israelis. It protects Palestinians otherwise. Israelis are citizens of Israel. Of course the IDF protects them (although settlers in the Gaza might have a different view). Palis in the territories are not Israeli citizens. See the difference?
No, Israel discriminates against Palestinians regardless of their actions or views.
Israel controls the West Bank and as the legal controller of that land, is obliged to protect the rights of all its inhabitants and treat all inhabitants, Jew or Gentile, equally.
That was a requirement of the Balfour Declaration and the Palestine Mandate.
That is unproven. In fact it is downright false. All of it.
And the Balfour Declaration is not binding on Israel, nor is the Palestine Mandate.
That is unproven. In fact it is downright false. All of it.
And the Balfour Declaration is not binding on Israel, nor is the Palestine Mandate.
What is unproven? That the Palestinians face discrimination in the West Bank?
When's the last time the Israeli govt. argued before the Supreme Court that it should retro-actively legalize Israelis settlements that were built illegally?
That the Palestine Mandate didn't require the Jews to protect and respect the rights of Gentiles in Palestine? Well I guess you never read the details of the Palestine Mandate or the Balfour Declaration.
Funny, how others have argued that Israel has the right to settle Jews in the West Bank BECAUSE the Palestine Mandate is still in affect.
Remember her?
She's still looking for justice.
and that is?
"The Impact of the ConflictRemember her?
She's still looking for justice.
and that is?
A precious souvenir of a family butchered.
That girl is Tamar Fogel.
How much is the vast majority though? 80%? 90%? 99%?You will note that I never mentioned anything about Jews being slaughtered wholesale at all. The Jews are actually the ones doing much of the killing as they have the capability that the Palestinians simply lack but that does not take away from the fact that the Palestinians have an extremist section that wants to end all things Jew and take over Israel. I dont think that animosity that has built up on BOTH sides from all the bloodshed is simply going to vanish because of some random agreement or even a representative coming up with an agreement with Israel. I would doubt that many people there do not know someone or another that has been killed or wronged in some way by the other side.The genocide card is one that Israel has played continuously- and shamelessly- since the 1940's. In times of high stress, such as war, people will make extreme statements, especially in the Arab world, which tends more towards hyperbole. At times, prominent Jews have made similar statements about wiping out the Palestinians.
I think it is important to look towards more responsible people and institutions. Today the Arab League, and the PA, have a position that urges peace based on 1967 boundaries, with minor adjustments here and there as required, establishment of trade and normal relations, and some sort of just resolution of the Arab refugee issue. This latter has been left open, and may mean compensation rather than massive return of a population. It is a reasonable deal, and is a heck of a long way from "genocide".
The image of Jews being slaughtered wholesale has been a tool to obtain favor in the US, and a very successful one. It is an insult, when you think about it, to the millions of Jews who actually were slaughtered in WW2.
You seem to get my post wrong in that Israel is not part of that hate or killing. That is not what I was getting at. After all that killing and the years of tension, both sides are full of those that simply are not going to get along. I dont see a viable solution here, particularly one that includes the people getting along. The 1967 borders is a non-issue. The idea that simply drawing lines on a map is suddenly going to stop people from bombing schools, killing citizens and military retaliations is little more than a pipe dream. The tensions are not going to go away because of lines on a map. Terrorists are still going to kill civilians and Israelis are still going to think that a tomahawk missile is a proper tool to kill that guy in a taxi.
Any solution for real peace there MUST include a basic shift in culture. That is a HUGE order and nigh impossible for any outside element to impose. As a matter of fact, external forces are likely making that transition HARDER. The people have to get tired of the killing and it seems that there is an inexastable well of patience when it comes to that in that area.
Fair enough. These are good points. Given the choice though, the vast majority will, I believe, prefer some sort of settlement, and getting on with lives, than perpetual war. A one sided settlement is not going to end anything however- it must be based on reason and compromise. To date, Israel has not been able to subscribe to those principles.
We have evidence in history of conflict coming to an end, even the most horrific. Japan, for just one example, was bombed with nuclear weapons in 1945; ten years later Japanese were embracing zoot suits, jazz, and other elements of US culture. People move on. They can do so in the Middle East as well.
[this was in response to the official religion offshoot]
Now, separate from the quotes above, something that really should be said at this point is that the validity of Israels response to the Palestinian threat, its claims over the land and the scale of its reprisals are essentially irrelevant. It does not matter how legal the Israeli occupation (if people insist on using that term) is. It does not matter if their response to the bombing is too much or if the Palestinian violence is justified or their claims are accurate. The fact is that the Palestinians are not going anywhere and the Israelis are not going anywhere. Both have nowhere else to go and both value that land far too much. Clearly the Israeli actions to end the killing are not working and clearly the Palestinian terrorism is not affecting change that is positive for the Palestinians. They need to take a good look at what is going on because neither of them are getting the results that they want from the actions that they are taking.
This is true. Both sides are influenced by outside forces. Palestinians get material and emotional support from other ARab countries and expats. Israel gets restraint from the US and Europe. Both sides need to be allowed to work it out on their own.
Work it out here means that Israel should do what any nation faced with a hostile force on its border would do. Relocate them and bomb the shit out of the remainder.
This is true. Both sides are influenced by outside forces. Palestinians get material and emotional support from other ARab countries and expats. Israel gets restraint from the US and Europe. Both sides need to be allowed to work it out on their own.
Work it out here means that Israel should do what any nation faced with a hostile force on its border would do. Relocate them and bomb the shit out of the remainder.
Seeking to ethnically cleanse Israel of all Arabs is very ironic, considering that this is exactly the kind of thing anti-Semites have been doing to the Jews for 2,000 years.
Were Jews blowing up buses and pizza shops during that time? No, I dont think so.
What is ironic is an avowed anti semite pretending to be even handed.
"The Israeli occupation of the OPT violates the three basic tenets of the
normative regime of occupation and is, therefore, intrinsically illegal. This section discusses the basic principles informing this normative regime and then applies them to the Israeli occupation."
http://scholarship.law.berkeley.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1299&context=bjil (P.9)
For decades Zionists flooded Palestine with illegal immigrants with a single goal in mind: take sole possession of all the land from the River to the sea and transfer or kill any indigenous "inferiors" who failed to step aside for the "Chosen People."
Now, separate from the quotes above, something that really should be said at this point is that the validity of Israels response to the Palestinian threat, its claims over the land and the scale of its reprisals are essentially irrelevant. It does not matter how legal the Israeli occupation (if people insist on using that term) is. It does not matter if their response to the bombing is too much or if the Palestinian violence is justified or their claims are accurate. The fact is that the Palestinians are not going anywhere and the Israelis are not going anywhere. Both have nowhere else to go and both value that land far too much. Clearly the Israeli actions to end the killing are not working and clearly the Palestinian terrorism is not affecting change that is positive for the Palestinians. They need to take a good look at what is going on because neither of them are getting the results that they want from the actions that they are taking.
This is true. Both sides are influenced by outside forces. Palestinians get material and emotional support from other ARab countries and expats. Israel gets restraint from the US and Europe. Both sides need to be allowed to work it out on their own.
Work it out here means that Israel should do what any nation faced with a hostile force on its border would do. Relocate them and bomb the shit out of the remainder.
People usually do not react to being exterminated by ceasing hostilities. Instead, they fight for their lives. Ethnic cleansing BTW is not pretty nor is it ever morally justifiable. Ever.
This is true. Both sides are influenced by outside forces. Palestinians get material and emotional support from other ARab countries and expats. Israel gets restraint from the US and Europe. Both sides need to be allowed to work it out on their own.
Work it out here means that Israel should do what any nation faced with a hostile force on its border would do. Relocate them and bomb the shit out of the remainder.
Seeking to ethnically cleanse Israel of all Arabs is very ironic, considering that this is exactly the kind of thing anti-Semites have been doing to the Jews for 2,000 years.
Now, separate from the quotes above, something that really should be said at this point is that the validity of Israel’s response to the Palestinian threat, its claims over the land and the scale of its reprisals are essentially irrelevant. It does not matter how legal the Israeli ‘occupation’ (if people insist on using that term) is. It does not matter if their response to the bombing is too much or if the Palestinian violence is justified or their claims are accurate. The fact is that the Palestinians are not going anywhere and the Israelis are not going anywhere. Both have nowhere else to go and both value that land far too much. Clearly the Israeli actions to end the killing are not working and clearly the Palestinian terrorism is not affecting change that is positive for the Palestinians. They need to take a good look at what is going on because neither of them are getting the results that they want from the actions that they are taking.
This is true. Both sides are influenced by outside forces. Palestinians get material and emotional support from other ARab countries and expats. Israel gets restraint from the US and Europe. Both sides need to be allowed to work it out on their own.
Work it out here means that Israel should do what any nation faced with a hostile force on its border would do. Relocate them and bomb the shit out of the remainder.
Such would be highly unlikely to solve the problem. It is more likely to exacerbate it.
People usually do not react to being exterminated by ceasing hostilities. Instead, they fight for their lives. Ethnic cleansing BTW is not pretty nor is it ever morally justifiable. Ever.
What is a reasonable solution for a first world culture facing continued attacks by a 3rd world culture which is dedicated to its destruction?
There is no pretty solution to this. But continued terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians is even less pretty. The world is OK with dead Jews. It isn't so great about Jews fighting back and defending themselves.
