Bridge the gap between Israel and Palestine?

[MHunterB]

The withdrawal of total, unqualified support of the US would go a long way. The Israeli leadership has felt itself in a very strong position since the '67 war for two reasons. One is the massive economic and military aid supplied by the US, and it's explicit military backing. The second is its monopoly on nuclear weapons. With neither of these advantages, Israel would be much more likely to negociate a settlement in good faith. The second factor is probably going to change within the next couple of years anyway (Iran). The US can change the first, but only if it can reign in the voracious lobbying that goes on in Washington today.

There is no good faith with a radical that want you to cease existing. The problems there extend far beyond Israel’s militarism or Palestinians claims over land. There is generational hate and as we should well know at this point, there is nothing you can do with someone that fervently believes you have no business existing. War has racked that place for a very long time and there is nothing that America can accomplish that will force that area into peace other that simply eliminating one of the sides. Such is not a solution worth discussing.

The genocide card is one that Israel has played continuously- and shamelessly- since the 1940's. In times of high stress, such as war, people will make extreme statements, especially in the Arab world, which tends more towards hyperbole. At times, prominent Jews have made similar statements about wiping out the Palestinians.

I think it is important to look towards more responsible people and institutions. Today the Arab League, and the PA, have a position that urges peace based on 1967 boundaries, with minor adjustments here and there as required, establishment of trade and normal relations, and some sort of just resolution of the Arab refugee issue. This latter has been left open, and may mean compensation rather than massive return of a population. It is a reasonable deal, and is a heck of a long way from "genocide".

The image of Jews being slaughtered wholesale has been a tool to obtain favor in the US, and a very successful one. It is an insult, when you think about it, to the millions of Jews who actually were slaughtered in WW2.

Please provide some factual information to support your contentions, with citations. I was unaware that either the AL or the PA/PLO had retracted their so-clearly stated and repeated objective of removing Israel completely.

 

[MHunterB]

This conflict will continue as long as there remains a Jewish State on what is perceived to be Palestinian land. The solution is not to create an independent Palestinian State, but to create a united country which respected both Judaism and Islam. I would envision four political entities, two secular and two religious. In order to pass legislation, three of the four parties would have to agree. Hopefully, the Palestinians would then recognize that obstinacy by their political leaders would only maintain the status quo.

I realize that, after the Holocaust, Israelis would be loathe to give up a Jewish Homeland. However they, too, must recognize that simply clinging to their guns and religion will not serve them in the long run.

I am certain I must have misunderstood the above, for it appears to indicate the poster's belief that the Jews need to abandon Judaism to have peace?

I'm hoping he'll come back and discuss that with me......

My post should be read as a whole, and "guns and religion" was a facetious reference to our own Beloved Leader. Jews do not need to abandon Judaism any more than Palestinians need to abandon Islam. But they both need to abandon the idea of an official state religion.

Israel does not *have* an official state religion. Many of the Palestinian political organizations seem to consider Islam the 'official' religion they desire - they are further desirous of excluding Judaism and Hinduism, along with the Baha'i faith.

 

[The Rabbi]

How many Palestinians have Israeli "extremists" killed? How many Israelis by Palestinians? Calling some Palestinians "extremists" implies that there are Palestinian moderates. There are not. They are all extremists. They are all terrorists. It is nice to play the "equivalence" card but the truth is there is no equivalence. Israelis kill Palestinians because Palestinians kill Israelis. If Palestinians dont want to be killed they should stop killing Israelis.
The solution is what would happen in any other area. Everyone should butt out and the Israelis should turn the cameras off and do what they need to do.

All Palestinians are terrorists? That's a pretty stupid and racist statement.

What do YOU think the Israelis should do to solve this problem?

Kill them all? Force them all into Jordan?

Either of those two solutions would work. I'm not particular as to which.
Yes, all palis are terrorists. Or they support terrorism. I've never heard one condemn the bus bombings and other atrocities.

 

[The Rabbi]

I am certain I must have misunderstood the above, for it appears to indicate the poster's belief that the Jews need to abandon Judaism to have peace?

I'm hoping he'll come back and discuss that with me......

My post should be read as a whole, and "guns and religion" was a facetious reference to our own Beloved Leader. Jews do not need to abandon Judaism any more than Palestinians need to abandon Islam. But they both need to abandon the idea of an official state religion.

Israel does not *have* an official state religion. Many of the Palestinian political organizations seem to consider Islam the 'official' religion they desire - they are further desirous of excluding Judaism and Hinduism, along with the Baha'i faith.

Huh? Judaism is the official religion of Israel. The office of Chief Rabbi(s) is a state office.

 

[MHunterB]

Everyone who has studied the situation knows the contrary. Peace is not on the PA's mind. Land grab and driving the Jews into the Med Sea is.

Meanwhile it is Israel that is doing the land-grabbing.

Israelis complain that the Arabs want all of Palestine, meanwhile the Jews are confiscating all of Palestine.

I guess its Neo-Zionist redirection. Accuse their opponents of doing exactly that which THEY are doing, and accuse their opponents of wanting exactly what THEY want.

The above is all very important-sounding, quite 'portentious'..... But then I recall that the poster has such a minimal understanding of history as to fallaciously assert after being presented with the facts *twice* that all 800 years of Islamic rule in Iberia was
a golden age' for the Jews there. Someone who can't be flexible enough to accept the facts recorded by so many eminent historians is, I feel, simply unable to cope with the complexities of the current ME situation.

I've asked -I thought politely? - twice before now. For the third time, 'Hyrcanus': why did Maimonides leave Cordova? I assure you it is relevant, and I humbly await your reply so that we may continue our discussion.

 

[MHunterB]

State religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

".....there is no specific law or official statement establishing the Jewish religion as the state's religion. "

 

[Lipush]

How do we bridge the gap between these two peoples?

How do we convince both sides to make the necessary compromises for peace?

Make Shesh-Besh illegal?


Nah, well, I guess the answer is education

 

[Lipush]

This conflict will continue as long as there remains a Jewish State on what is perceived to be Palestinian land. The solution is not to create an independent Palestinian State, but to create a united country which respected both Judaism and Islam.

God forbid, that will be a disaster.

 

[Lipush]

The withdrawal of total, unqualified support of the US would go a long way. The Israeli leadership has felt itself in a very strong position since the '67 war for two reasons. One is the massive economic and military aid supplied by the US, and it's explicit military backing. The second is its monopoly on nuclear weapons. With neither of these advantages, Israel would be much more likely to negociate a settlement in good faith. The second factor is probably going to change within the next couple of years anyway (Iran). The US can change the first, but only if it can reign in the voracious lobbying that goes on in Washington today.

Yes, the end of politics by legal bribery in Washington, D.C. would surely make our policies on the Middle East much more fair and balanced.

And without the United States basically kow-towing to all of Israel's right-wing policies (settlements, war on Gaza, violating Lebanon's airspace, stripping Palestinians of their Permanent Residency status based on Ottoman-era law), Israel would be forced to take a more reasonable approach towards their adversaries.

Ok, and what about the Palestinians?

Is attacking, stoning, and rocket launching a fair game in this situation?

Because I don't like that deal at all.

If they wish Israel's policy to change, they need to first of all accept its right to exist.

That should be the first thing to open ANY negotiation.

 

[Hyrcanus]

Israel does not *have* an official state religion. Many of the Palestinian political organizations seem to consider Islam the 'official' religion they desire - they are further desirous of excluding Judaism and Hinduism, along with the Baha'i faith.

Meanwhile Israel grants immigration and other wonderful benefits to folks only of the Jewish faith.

 

[Lipush]

They call it a 'charter' - but it serves the same 'mission statement' function as a foundational document: it's the basis of their government.

They've also stated on numerous occasions that it is an out-dated part of the Charter and no longer enforced or considered a mandatory condition for peace.

Glad to see you're still alive, that being said, Hamas said themselves that they may not use that charter anymore, but they surely still believe it is relevant

 

[The Rabbi]

State religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

".....there is no specific law or official statement establishing the Jewish religion as the state's religion. "

Right. There is no specific law. But it is nontheless in a million other ways.

 

[The Rabbi]

Israel does not *have* an official state religion. Many of the Palestinian political organizations seem to consider Islam the 'official' religion they desire - they are further desirous of excluding Judaism and Hinduism, along with the Baha'i faith.

Meanwhile Israel grants immigration and other wonderful benefits to folks only of the Jewish faith.

Yes. That's a problem why?

 

[Hyrcanus]

Yes. That's a problem why?

It shows that Judaism is the nation's state religion.

 

[Lipush]

so?

 

[MHunterB]

Israel does not *have* an official state religion. Many of the Palestinian political organizations seem to consider Islam the 'official' religion they desire - they are further desirous of excluding Judaism and Hinduism, along with the Baha'i faith.

Meanwhile Israel grants immigration and other wonderful benefits to folks only of the Jewish faith.

This is simply not factually correct.

Hyrcanus, I am finding it difficult to consider your ideas very seriously since I have seen that so many of them are evidently rooted in misunderstandings of the facts of the situations involved. While I am glad that you share my interest in the area, and that you want a peaceful and prosperous Palestine to develop alongside of a secure and peaceful Israel - I think that *only* views grounded in historical reality can bring us closer to that happy day.

 

[The Rabbi]

Yes. That's a problem why?

It shows that Judaism is the nation's state religion.

OK. Is that surprising? It was a state founded by Jews for Jews.

 

[georgephillip]

State religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

".....there is no specific law or official statement establishing the Jewish religion as the state's religion. "

"The structure and goals of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel are governed by Israeli law, but the law does not say explicitly that it is a state Rabbinate. However, outspoken Israeli secularists such as Shulamit Aloni and Uri Avnery have long maintained that it is that in practice..."

"As of 2011 marriage in Israel provides no provision for civil marriage, marriage between people of different religions, marriages by people who do not belong to one of nine recognised religious communities, or same-sex marriages, although there is recognition of marriages performed abroad."

State religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ending the ban on marriages between different religions would seem one practical starting point for bridging the gap between Jew and Arab in Palestine.

 

[MHunterB]

Yes. That's a problem why?

It shows that Judaism is the nation's state religion.

It can't, because that statement about immigration is not true. Nor is there any official designation of a state religion. A 'state religion' is a different matter entirely from simply a majority of citizens being nominal adherents of one religion.

There is difficulty enough in seeking to communicate by 'printed' words only: let's not exacerbate the obstacles to discussion by being sloppy in using those words. Please, it will only make communication more difficult and distract from the discussion.

 

[Hyrcanus]

It can't, because that statement about immigration is not true. Nor is there any official designation of a state religion. A 'state religion' is a different matter entirely from simply a majority of citizens being nominal adherents of one religion.

There is difficulty enough in seeking to communicate by 'printed' words only: let's not exacerbate the obstacles to discussion by being sloppy in using those words. Please, it will only make communication more difficult and distract from the discussion.

All Jews are allowed to immigrate to Israel. No questions asked.

No other religious group has such a benefit.

Jews who immigrate to Israel also get all sorts of financial benefits, that NO OTHER immigrants can get.