Brexit busted.

[frigidweirdo]

Arron Banks Confirms Families Losing Thousands Of Pounds Is 'Price Worth Paying' For Brexit
Brexit dont care about the effects of their campaign. Its all ideology.

And there is no evidence to show that the same families would not lose the same thousands if we stayed in is there. What you don't want is to lose your fantasy subsidies that you think will come your way without realising that this time next year you will be paying dearly for any returns

Well there is evidence but you choose to ignore it because it doesnt support your fantasy of an all white Britain living large on what we dont spend in the EU.

THEN YOU WILL BE ABLE TO PRODUCE THIS EVIDENCE THQAT SHOWS THAT ONLY IF WE LEAVE THE UE WILL WE HAVE TO PAY THIS EXTRA MONEY. WHAT IT BOILS DOWN TO IS YOUR FANTASY THAT THE EU WILL WELCONE WALES INTO THE FOLD AND THROW £BILLIONS AT IT WITH NOTHING GOING THE OTHER WAY. THE TRUTH IS YOU HAVE NOTHING TO OFFER EUROPE AND WILL NOT BE EVEN ACCEPTED ON THE NEXT 100 SHORT LISTS

Basically there's a lot that could happen. It's a gamble.

If the UK leaves the EU then it can stop paying money to the EU, but potentially the loss in trade, the weakening of the pound and other such things, with the only way to solve these being by joining the Schengen Zone, and this will then make things worse, not better.

 

[Phoenall]

Arron Banks Confirms Families Losing Thousands Of Pounds Is 'Price Worth Paying' For Brexit
Brexit dont care about the effects of their campaign. Its all ideology.

Meaning what ? That staying in the EU will ultimately be such a horrific prospect to endure that the loss of that sum will be chickenfeed by comparison ?

It must be blindness to the truths that have been clearly and comprehensively laid out for you that makes you insist upon remaining loyal to your side of this argument. You've been shown how much the EU is a drag, a drain, on our freedoms to prosper, as well as other freedoms. You've been shown an example of an arrogant EU trying to apply strong-arm tactics to make a NON member bend to its will !!

You simultaneously want Wales to be autonomous from the UK (because you hate the Conservatives), you want to ignore the will of the electorate, all so that - and in the name of 'independence' !! - Wales then ties itself in to EU diktats, subsumed under the weight of its non-democratic bureaucracy.

Your whole support for EU membership defies anyone wanting freedom to run their own affairs. With the best will in the world .. I have no understanding of that position, I'm afraid.

I think the EU will be better off without the UK. Most Europeans have always wanted a united states of europe. As a kid I remember EU stickers on cars when we lived in Germany, France and Italy when my father was stationed there. This was in the 60s. The EU states that want to integrate can do so without the UK always trying to limit the EU's power on behalf of the U.S. Wales and Scotland will be welcomed as EU states if they care to join. Individual European countries would be subsumed in trade negotiations with the other big blocks like the U.S., China, Russia and now even India. Better a strong EU without the UK. England and Northern Ireland if left alone will do fine as a U.S. satellite.

We should be shot of the EU ... there's no doubt of that. As to whether the EU would be better off without us ... possibly. Though - given what you say, perhaps the UK, in time, would've managed to inject some self-pride into individual Member States .. and would they have been much the better for it ?

But I'd be interested in seeing actual evidence of what you're asserting, namely, that the UK is trying to limit the EU's power on behalf of the US ? I'm not aware that we are. Please back up your assertion.

Expect some of topic manipulated cut and paste that says nothing about the topic, that is his usual M.O. on other boards when tasked to prove his claims. Keep asking him and he will put you on ignore

 

[frigidweirdo]

How the brexit campaigners whip up fear by lying.

IPSO Rulings - Detail

I expected there to be more debate. So far from the Brexit side all I see is petty nationalism with no real logic at all.

Its a discussion between two sides who are talking different languages.

The "remainers" are generally younger, better educated and more sophisticated. They see opportunities in Europe and welcome them.

The "outers" are generally older,easily influenced and averse to change.They dont like hearing foreign languages in the street and believe that the EU is slowly taking over the Britain they know and love.

"Remainers" dont see immigration as a big deal but "outers" have little interest in any other issue.

Whereas there are others who see immigration as an issue, want the EU to change, but don't see leaving as the solution to the problem.

Immigration, as an EU issue, won't change. The EU regards the free movement of EU citizens between Member States as sacrosanct ... a 'foundling principle'. Not even the massive influx of refugees from Syria (etc) has caused the EU to turn away from such a principle. Anyone believing this can become an issue where the EU as a whole will somehow be persuaded to change its policy on, are deluding themselves. The only alternative to accepting the status quo IS to leave ... simple fact ... !!

The problem here is how you look at things. People are annoyed that foreigners come in. 2/3rds of those foreigners going in aren't EU citizens and don't have that right in the first place. It's the UK GOVERNMENT that lets them in. Somehow those who want to leave the EU think it will get better if the UK leaves the EU, how they think this I have no idea.

From the point of view of EU citizens going in, the issues aren't that difficult, except for politicians of course.

Take welfare payments and unemployment payments and all that stuff. If there were a proper system in place, then EU citizens wouldn't be able to just enter the UK and take benefits, they'd be a time you'd have to work in the country before you were eligible, and not just for non-UK citizens, but for UK citizens too, because there are those on the take too who perhaps shouldn't be. A good system will make it work, and freedom of movement wouldn't be so much of a problem.

As for Syrian refugees, I think the EU needs to have a serious think about how to deal with such issues in the first place, rather than being reactionary.

What the EU needs is strong leadership in the anti-Federalist mold. Get all those who are opposed to a Federal Europe, opposed to this that and the other, to come together and to fight for that. At present you have those who want a federal Europe being strong, and those against being weak ass mother feckers.

The EU will still be there. The UK will still have to cope with the EU. The impact of the EU will be so strong if the EU goes Federal. The laws will still be made in Westminster to conform to the EU, because it'd be easier for the country to do so.

If the UK wants to deal effectively with the EU, then it'll end up having to join the Schengen Agreement. It's the Brexit people who talk about the "Norway Option", did no one tell them Norway is in the Schengen Zone? D'oh.

 

[Mindful]

How the brexit campaigners whip up fear by lying.

IPSO Rulings - Detail

I expected there to be more debate. So far from the Brexit side all I see is petty nationalism with no real logic at all.

Its a discussion between two sides who are talking different languages.

The "remainers" are generally younger, better educated and more sophisticated. They see opportunities in Europe and welcome them.

The "outers" are generally older,easily influenced and averse to change.They dont like hearing foreign languages in the street and believe that the EU is slowly taking over the Britain they know and love.

"Remainers" dont see immigration as a big deal but "outers" have little interest in any other issue.

Whereas there are others who see immigration as an issue, want the EU to change, but don't see leaving as the solution to the problem.

Immigration, as an EU issue, won't change. The EU regards the free movement of EU citizens between Member States as sacrosanct ... a 'foundling principle'. Not even the massive influx of refugees from Syria (etc) has caused the EU to turn away from such a principle. Anyone believing this can become an issue where the EU as a whole will somehow be persuaded to change its policy on, are deluding themselves. The only alternative to accepting the status quo IS to leave ... simple fact ... !!

During my historical research, I noted that there was more freedom of movement in Europe before the two world wars, than there is today

 

[frigidweirdo]

How the brexit campaigners whip up fear by lying.

IPSO Rulings - Detail

I expected there to be more debate. So far from the Brexit side all I see is petty nationalism with no real logic at all.

Its a discussion between two sides who are talking different languages.

The "remainers" are generally younger, better educated and more sophisticated. They see opportunities in Europe and welcome them.

The "outers" are generally older,easily influenced and averse to change.They dont like hearing foreign languages in the street and believe that the EU is slowly taking over the Britain they know and love.

"Remainers" dont see immigration as a big deal but "outers" have little interest in any other issue.

Whereas there are others who see immigration as an issue, want the EU to change, but don't see leaving as the solution to the problem.

Immigration, as an EU issue, won't change. The EU regards the free movement of EU citizens between Member States as sacrosanct ... a 'foundling principle'. Not even the massive influx of refugees from Syria (etc) has caused the EU to turn away from such a principle. Anyone believing this can become an issue where the EU as a whole will somehow be persuaded to change its policy on, are deluding themselves. The only alternative to accepting the status quo IS to leave ... simple fact ... !!

During my historical research, I noted that there was more freedom of movement in Europe before the two world wars, than there is today

Yes, almost certainly, you just went to another country, it didn't matter much if you had a passport. However the world has changed, transportation has changed massively.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

How the brexit campaigners whip up fear by lying.

IPSO Rulings - Detail

I expected there to be more debate. So far from the Brexit side all I see is petty nationalism with no real logic at all.

Its a discussion between two sides who are talking different languages.

The "remainers" are generally younger, better educated and more sophisticated. They see opportunities in Europe and welcome them.

The "outers" are generally older,easily influenced and averse to change.They dont like hearing foreign languages in the street and believe that the EU is slowly taking over the Britain they know and love.

"Remainers" dont see immigration as a big deal but "outers" have little interest in any other issue.

Whereas there are others who see immigration as an issue, want the EU to change, but don't see leaving as the solution to the problem.

Immigration, as an EU issue, won't change. The EU regards the free movement of EU citizens between Member States as sacrosanct ... a 'foundling principle'. Not even the massive influx of refugees from Syria (etc) has caused the EU to turn away from such a principle. Anyone believing this can become an issue where the EU as a whole will somehow be persuaded to change its policy on, are deluding themselves. The only alternative to accepting the status quo IS to leave ... simple fact ... !!

The problem here is how you look at things. People are annoyed that foreigners come in. 2/3rds of those foreigners going in aren't EU citizens and don't have that right in the first place. It's the UK GOVERNMENT that lets them in. Somehow those who want to leave the EU think it will get better if the UK leaves the EU, how they think this I have no idea.

From the point of view of EU citizens going in, the issues aren't that difficult, except for politicians of course.

Take welfare payments and unemployment payments and all that stuff. If there were a proper system in place, then EU citizens wouldn't be able to just enter the UK and take benefits, they'd be a time you'd have to work in the country before you were eligible, and not just for non-UK citizens, but for UK citizens too, because there are those on the take too who perhaps shouldn't be. A good system will make it work, and freedom of movement wouldn't be so much of a problem.

As for Syrian refugees, I think the EU needs to have a serious think about how to deal with such issues in the first place, rather than being reactionary.

What the EU needs is strong leadership in the anti-Federalist mold. Get all those who are opposed to a Federal Europe, opposed to this that and the other, to come together and to fight for that. At present you have those who want a federal Europe being strong, and those against being weak ass mother feckers.

The EU will still be there. The UK will still have to cope with the EU. The impact of the EU will be so strong if the EU goes Federal. The laws will still be made in Westminster to conform to the EU, because it'd be easier for the country to do so.

If the UK wants to deal effectively with the EU, then it'll end up having to join the Schengen Agreement. It's the Brexit people who talk about the "Norway Option", did no one tell them Norway is in the Schengen Zone? D'oh.

There is an anti federalist core in the EU parliament. But rather than look to reform they sit apart from the process.They dont speak,they dont engage and they dont vote. They just do enough to collect the generous expenses on offer.

 

[frigidweirdo]

I expected there to be more debate. So far from the Brexit side all I see is petty nationalism with no real logic at all.

Its a discussion between two sides who are talking different languages.

The "remainers" are generally younger, better educated and more sophisticated. They see opportunities in Europe and welcome them.

The "outers" are generally older,easily influenced and averse to change.They dont like hearing foreign languages in the street and believe that the EU is slowly taking over the Britain they know and love.

"Remainers" dont see immigration as a big deal but "outers" have little interest in any other issue.

Whereas there are others who see immigration as an issue, want the EU to change, but don't see leaving as the solution to the problem.

Immigration, as an EU issue, won't change. The EU regards the free movement of EU citizens between Member States as sacrosanct ... a 'foundling principle'. Not even the massive influx of refugees from Syria (etc) has caused the EU to turn away from such a principle. Anyone believing this can become an issue where the EU as a whole will somehow be persuaded to change its policy on, are deluding themselves. The only alternative to accepting the status quo IS to leave ... simple fact ... !!

The problem here is how you look at things. People are annoyed that foreigners come in. 2/3rds of those foreigners going in aren't EU citizens and don't have that right in the first place. It's the UK GOVERNMENT that lets them in. Somehow those who want to leave the EU think it will get better if the UK leaves the EU, how they think this I have no idea.

From the point of view of EU citizens going in, the issues aren't that difficult, except for politicians of course.

Take welfare payments and unemployment payments and all that stuff. If there were a proper system in place, then EU citizens wouldn't be able to just enter the UK and take benefits, they'd be a time you'd have to work in the country before you were eligible, and not just for non-UK citizens, but for UK citizens too, because there are those on the take too who perhaps shouldn't be. A good system will make it work, and freedom of movement wouldn't be so much of a problem.

As for Syrian refugees, I think the EU needs to have a serious think about how to deal with such issues in the first place, rather than being reactionary.

What the EU needs is strong leadership in the anti-Federalist mold. Get all those who are opposed to a Federal Europe, opposed to this that and the other, to come together and to fight for that. At present you have those who want a federal Europe being strong, and those against being weak ass mother feckers.

The EU will still be there. The UK will still have to cope with the EU. The impact of the EU will be so strong if the EU goes Federal. The laws will still be made in Westminster to conform to the EU, because it'd be easier for the country to do so.

If the UK wants to deal effectively with the EU, then it'll end up having to join the Schengen Agreement. It's the Brexit people who talk about the "Norway Option", did no one tell them Norway is in the Schengen Zone? D'oh.

There is an anti federalist core in the EU parliament. But rather than look to reform they sit apart from the process.They dont speak,they dont engage and they dont vote. They just do enough to collect the generous expenses on offer.

Yeah, it's weird, they could do so much to shape it in the way they think it should be shaped. But it seems like they don't have a shape in mind. Just petty nationalism.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Its a discussion between two sides who are talking different languages.

The "remainers" are generally younger, better educated and more sophisticated. They see opportunities in Europe and welcome them.

The "outers" are generally older,easily influenced and averse to change.They dont like hearing foreign languages in the street and believe that the EU is slowly taking over the Britain they know and love.

"Remainers" dont see immigration as a big deal but "outers" have little interest in any other issue.

Whereas there are others who see immigration as an issue, want the EU to change, but don't see leaving as the solution to the problem.

Immigration, as an EU issue, won't change. The EU regards the free movement of EU citizens between Member States as sacrosanct ... a 'foundling principle'. Not even the massive influx of refugees from Syria (etc) has caused the EU to turn away from such a principle. Anyone believing this can become an issue where the EU as a whole will somehow be persuaded to change its policy on, are deluding themselves. The only alternative to accepting the status quo IS to leave ... simple fact ... !!

The problem here is how you look at things. People are annoyed that foreigners come in. 2/3rds of those foreigners going in aren't EU citizens and don't have that right in the first place. It's the UK GOVERNMENT that lets them in. Somehow those who want to leave the EU think it will get better if the UK leaves the EU, how they think this I have no idea.

From the point of view of EU citizens going in, the issues aren't that difficult, except for politicians of course.

Take welfare payments and unemployment payments and all that stuff. If there were a proper system in place, then EU citizens wouldn't be able to just enter the UK and take benefits, they'd be a time you'd have to work in the country before you were eligible, and not just for non-UK citizens, but for UK citizens too, because there are those on the take too who perhaps shouldn't be. A good system will make it work, and freedom of movement wouldn't be so much of a problem.

As for Syrian refugees, I think the EU needs to have a serious think about how to deal with such issues in the first place, rather than being reactionary.

What the EU needs is strong leadership in the anti-Federalist mold. Get all those who are opposed to a Federal Europe, opposed to this that and the other, to come together and to fight for that. At present you have those who want a federal Europe being strong, and those against being weak ass mother feckers.

The EU will still be there. The UK will still have to cope with the EU. The impact of the EU will be so strong if the EU goes Federal. The laws will still be made in Westminster to conform to the EU, because it'd be easier for the country to do so.

If the UK wants to deal effectively with the EU, then it'll end up having to join the Schengen Agreement. It's the Brexit people who talk about the "Norway Option", did no one tell them Norway is in the Schengen Zone? D'oh.

There is an anti federalist core in the EU parliament. But rather than look to reform they sit apart from the process.They dont speak,they dont engage and they dont vote. They just do enough to collect the generous expenses on offer.

Yeah, it's weird, they could do so much to shape it in the way they think it should be shaped. But it seems like they don't have a shape in mind. Just petty nationalism.

There is a definite need for reform but it wont happen until people commit to it. The irony is that Farages group are the laziest buggers in the EU but they have joined up with Polish neo nazis in order to trigger extra funding from the very organisation they claim to despise.

 

[Phoenall]

How the brexit campaigners whip up fear by lying.

IPSO Rulings - Detail

I expected there to be more debate. So far from the Brexit side all I see is petty nationalism with no real logic at all.

Its a discussion between two sides who are talking different languages.

The "remainers" are generally younger, better educated and more sophisticated. They see opportunities in Europe and welcome them.

The "outers" are generally older,easily influenced and averse to change.They dont like hearing foreign languages in the street and believe that the EU is slowly taking over the Britain they know and love.

"Remainers" dont see immigration as a big deal but "outers" have little interest in any other issue.

Whereas there are others who see immigration as an issue, want the EU to change, but don't see leaving as the solution to the problem.

Immigration, as an EU issue, won't change. The EU regards the free movement of EU citizens between Member States as sacrosanct ... a 'foundling principle'. Not even the massive influx of refugees from Syria (etc) has caused the EU to turn away from such a principle. Anyone believing this can become an issue where the EU as a whole will somehow be persuaded to change its policy on, are deluding themselves. The only alternative to accepting the status quo IS to leave ... simple fact ... !!

The problem here is how you look at things. People are annoyed that foreigners come in. 2/3rds of those foreigners going in aren't EU citizens and don't have that right in the first place. It's the UK GOVERNMENT that lets them in. Somehow those who want to leave the EU think it will get better if the UK leaves the EU, how they think this I have no idea.

From the point of view of EU citizens going in, the issues aren't that difficult, except for politicians of course.

Take welfare payments and unemployment payments and all that stuff. If there were a proper system in place, then EU citizens wouldn't be able to just enter the UK and take benefits, they'd be a time you'd have to work in the country before you were eligible, and not just for non-UK citizens, but for UK citizens too, because there are those on the take too who perhaps shouldn't be. A good system will make it work, and freedom of movement wouldn't be so much of a problem.

As for Syrian refugees, I think the EU needs to have a serious think about how to deal with such issues in the first place, rather than being reactionary.

What the EU needs is strong leadership in the anti-Federalist mold. Get all those who are opposed to a Federal Europe, opposed to this that and the other, to come together and to fight for that. At present you have those who want a federal Europe being strong, and those against being weak ass mother feckers.

The EU will still be there. The UK will still have to cope with the EU. The impact of the EU will be so strong if the EU goes Federal. The laws will still be made in Westminster to conform to the EU, because it'd be easier for the country to do so.

If the UK wants to deal effectively with the EU, then it'll end up having to join the Schengen Agreement. It's the Brexit people who talk about the "Norway Option", did no one tell them Norway is in the Schengen Zone? D'oh.

That is what the UK government wanted to bring in, but because the looney lefties signed away our rights to set our own welfare laws the E.U. courts stopped it from going ahead. This meant that we had to accept 500,000 unemployable Romanians invading the UK and camping out in parks while waiting for a fully furnished house, latest OLED T.V., XBOX, PC, cell phones and then welfare as high as £20k a year.

If we leave the E.U. the whole sorry affair will collapse under unpaid debts and failing economies. Greece, Portugal and Ireland combined did not pay in half of what the UK pays in, and then we are fined the same amount for infringement of laws we never knew existed.

We wont be forced into the Schengen zone and the E.U. knows this, we will negotiate fair trade deals and be back to a level playing field again.


Just one example of E.U. legislation that is unfair to UK business. Any logistics company from Europe can use UK roads free of charge while our own logistics pay taxes to drive on the road and on the fuel used. This puts up the price to the consumer that goes straight into the European logistics companies profits. So the current government introduced a simple payment to foreign hauliers of £300 a week or £10k a year for every HGV ( comparable to UK business outlay after tax relief ). The E.U. has made this illegal as the European hauliers are finding it hard to pay the sums.

 

[Phoenall]

I expected there to be more debate. So far from the Brexit side all I see is petty nationalism with no real logic at all.

Its a discussion between two sides who are talking different languages.

The "remainers" are generally younger, better educated and more sophisticated. They see opportunities in Europe and welcome them.

The "outers" are generally older,easily influenced and averse to change.They dont like hearing foreign languages in the street and believe that the EU is slowly taking over the Britain they know and love.

"Remainers" dont see immigration as a big deal but "outers" have little interest in any other issue.

Whereas there are others who see immigration as an issue, want the EU to change, but don't see leaving as the solution to the problem.

Immigration, as an EU issue, won't change. The EU regards the free movement of EU citizens between Member States as sacrosanct ... a 'foundling principle'. Not even the massive influx of refugees from Syria (etc) has caused the EU to turn away from such a principle. Anyone believing this can become an issue where the EU as a whole will somehow be persuaded to change its policy on, are deluding themselves. The only alternative to accepting the status quo IS to leave ... simple fact ... !!

The problem here is how you look at things. People are annoyed that foreigners come in. 2/3rds of those foreigners going in aren't EU citizens and don't have that right in the first place. It's the UK GOVERNMENT that lets them in. Somehow those who want to leave the EU think it will get better if the UK leaves the EU, how they think this I have no idea.

From the point of view of EU citizens going in, the issues aren't that difficult, except for politicians of course.

Take welfare payments and unemployment payments and all that stuff. If there were a proper system in place, then EU citizens wouldn't be able to just enter the UK and take benefits, they'd be a time you'd have to work in the country before you were eligible, and not just for non-UK citizens, but for UK citizens too, because there are those on the take too who perhaps shouldn't be. A good system will make it work, and freedom of movement wouldn't be so much of a problem.

As for Syrian refugees, I think the EU needs to have a serious think about how to deal with such issues in the first place, rather than being reactionary.

What the EU needs is strong leadership in the anti-Federalist mold. Get all those who are opposed to a Federal Europe, opposed to this that and the other, to come together and to fight for that. At present you have those who want a federal Europe being strong, and those against being weak ass mother feckers.

The EU will still be there. The UK will still have to cope with the EU. The impact of the EU will be so strong if the EU goes Federal. The laws will still be made in Westminster to conform to the EU, because it'd be easier for the country to do so.

If the UK wants to deal effectively with the EU, then it'll end up having to join the Schengen Agreement. It's the Brexit people who talk about the "Norway Option", did no one tell them Norway is in the Schengen Zone? D'oh.

There is an anti federalist core in the EU parliament. But rather than look to reform they sit apart from the process.They dont speak,they dont engage and they dont vote. They just do enough to collect the generous expenses on offer.

A bit like the Welsh assembly then

 

[Phoenall]

Whereas there are others who see immigration as an issue, want the EU to change, but don't see leaving as the solution to the problem.

Immigration, as an EU issue, won't change. The EU regards the free movement of EU citizens between Member States as sacrosanct ... a 'foundling principle'. Not even the massive influx of refugees from Syria (etc) has caused the EU to turn away from such a principle. Anyone believing this can become an issue where the EU as a whole will somehow be persuaded to change its policy on, are deluding themselves. The only alternative to accepting the status quo IS to leave ... simple fact ... !!

The problem here is how you look at things. People are annoyed that foreigners come in. 2/3rds of those foreigners going in aren't EU citizens and don't have that right in the first place. It's the UK GOVERNMENT that lets them in. Somehow those who want to leave the EU think it will get better if the UK leaves the EU, how they think this I have no idea.

From the point of view of EU citizens going in, the issues aren't that difficult, except for politicians of course.

Take welfare payments and unemployment payments and all that stuff. If there were a proper system in place, then EU citizens wouldn't be able to just enter the UK and take benefits, they'd be a time you'd have to work in the country before you were eligible, and not just for non-UK citizens, but for UK citizens too, because there are those on the take too who perhaps shouldn't be. A good system will make it work, and freedom of movement wouldn't be so much of a problem.

As for Syrian refugees, I think the EU needs to have a serious think about how to deal with such issues in the first place, rather than being reactionary.

What the EU needs is strong leadership in the anti-Federalist mold. Get all those who are opposed to a Federal Europe, opposed to this that and the other, to come together and to fight for that. At present you have those who want a federal Europe being strong, and those against being weak ass mother feckers.

The EU will still be there. The UK will still have to cope with the EU. The impact of the EU will be so strong if the EU goes Federal. The laws will still be made in Westminster to conform to the EU, because it'd be easier for the country to do so.

If the UK wants to deal effectively with the EU, then it'll end up having to join the Schengen Agreement. It's the Brexit people who talk about the "Norway Option", did no one tell them Norway is in the Schengen Zone? D'oh.

There is an anti federalist core in the EU parliament. But rather than look to reform they sit apart from the process.They dont speak,they dont engage and they dont vote. They just do enough to collect the generous expenses on offer.

Yeah, it's weird, they could do so much to shape it in the way they think it should be shaped. But it seems like they don't have a shape in mind. Just petty nationalism.

There is a definite need for reform but it wont happen until people commit to it. The irony is that Farages group are the laziest buggers in the EU but they have joined up with Polish neo nazis in order to trigger extra funding from the very organisation they claim to despise.

While Labour MEP's defraud the EU as much as they can

 

[Tommy Tainant]

I expected there to be more debate. So far from the Brexit side all I see is petty nationalism with no real logic at all.

Its a discussion between two sides who are talking different languages.

The "remainers" are generally younger, better educated and more sophisticated. They see opportunities in Europe and welcome them.

The "outers" are generally older,easily influenced and averse to change.They dont like hearing foreign languages in the street and believe that the EU is slowly taking over the Britain they know and love.

"Remainers" dont see immigration as a big deal but "outers" have little interest in any other issue.

Whereas there are others who see immigration as an issue, want the EU to change, but don't see leaving as the solution to the problem.

Immigration, as an EU issue, won't change. The EU regards the free movement of EU citizens between Member States as sacrosanct ... a 'foundling principle'. Not even the massive influx of refugees from Syria (etc) has caused the EU to turn away from such a principle. Anyone believing this can become an issue where the EU as a whole will somehow be persuaded to change its policy on, are deluding themselves. The only alternative to accepting the status quo IS to leave ... simple fact ... !!

The problem here is how you look at things. People are annoyed that foreigners come in. 2/3rds of those foreigners going in aren't EU citizens and don't have that right in the first place. It's the UK GOVERNMENT that lets them in. Somehow those who want to leave the EU think it will get better if the UK leaves the EU, how they think this I have no idea.

From the point of view of EU citizens going in, the issues aren't that difficult, except for politicians of course.

Take welfare payments and unemployment payments and all that stuff. If there were a proper system in place, then EU citizens wouldn't be able to just enter the UK and take benefits, they'd be a time you'd have to work in the country before you were eligible, and not just for non-UK citizens, but for UK citizens too, because there are those on the take too who perhaps shouldn't be. A good system will make it work, and freedom of movement wouldn't be so much of a problem.

As for Syrian refugees, I think the EU needs to have a serious think about how to deal with such issues in the first place, rather than being reactionary.

What the EU needs is strong leadership in the anti-Federalist mold. Get all those who are opposed to a Federal Europe, opposed to this that and the other, to come together and to fight for that. At present you have those who want a federal Europe being strong, and those against being weak ass mother feckers.

The EU will still be there. The UK will still have to cope with the EU. The impact of the EU will be so strong if the EU goes Federal. The laws will still be made in Westminster to conform to the EU, because it'd be easier for the country to do so.

If the UK wants to deal effectively with the EU, then it'll end up having to join the Schengen Agreement. It's the Brexit people who talk about the "Norway Option", did no one tell them Norway is in the Schengen Zone? D'oh.

That is what the UK government wanted to bring in, but because the looney lefties signed away our rights to set our own welfare laws the E.U. courts stopped it from going ahead. This meant that we had to accept 500,000 unemployable Romanians invading the UK and camping out in parks while waiting for a fully furnished house, latest OLED T.V., XBOX, PC, cell phones and then welfare as high as £20k a year.

If we leave the E.U. the whole sorry affair will collapse under unpaid debts and failing economies. Greece, Portugal and Ireland combined did not pay in half of what the UK pays in, and then we are fined the same amount for infringement of laws we never knew existed.

We wont be forced into the Schengen zone and the E.U. knows this, we will negotiate fair trade deals and be back to a level playing field again.


Just one example of E.U. legislation that is unfair to UK business. Any logistics company from Europe can use UK roads free of charge while our own logistics pay taxes to drive on the road and on the fuel used. This puts up the price to the consumer that goes straight into the European logistics companies profits. So the current government introduced a simple payment to foreign hauliers of £300 a week or £10k a year for every HGV ( comparable to UK business outlay after tax relief ). The E.U. has made this illegal as the European hauliers are finding it hard to pay the sums.

My prospective UKIP councillor told me that we could expect 5 million Bulgarian beggars here on January 1rst. I nodded at the old fool before telling him to fuck off my land.Why do your type feel the need to lie so much ?
Is it because you have no case ?

500,000 Romanians living in a park ? Why not just say 5000 ? You undermine your racism by making such bizarre claims.

You really are a lying piece of shit.

 

[Drummond]

How the brexit campaigners whip up fear by lying.

IPSO Rulings - Detail

I expected there to be more debate. So far from the Brexit side all I see is petty nationalism with no real logic at all.

Its a discussion between two sides who are talking different languages.

The "remainers" are generally younger, better educated and more sophisticated. They see opportunities in Europe and welcome them.

The "outers" are generally older,easily influenced and averse to change.They dont like hearing foreign languages in the street and believe that the EU is slowly taking over the Britain they know and love.

"Remainers" dont see immigration as a big deal but "outers" have little interest in any other issue.

Whereas there are others who see immigration as an issue, want the EU to change, but don't see leaving as the solution to the problem.

Immigration, as an EU issue, won't change. The EU regards the free movement of EU citizens between Member States as sacrosanct ... a 'foundling principle'. Not even the massive influx of refugees from Syria (etc) has caused the EU to turn away from such a principle. Anyone believing this can become an issue where the EU as a whole will somehow be persuaded to change its policy on, are deluding themselves. The only alternative to accepting the status quo IS to leave ... simple fact ... !!

The problem here is how you look at things. People are annoyed that foreigners come in. 2/3rds of those foreigners going in aren't EU citizens and don't have that right in the first place. It's the UK GOVERNMENT that lets them in. Somehow those who want to leave the EU think it will get better if the UK leaves the EU, how they think this I have no idea.

From the point of view of EU citizens going in, the issues aren't that difficult, except for politicians of course.

Take welfare payments and unemployment payments and all that stuff. If there were a proper system in place, then EU citizens wouldn't be able to just enter the UK and take benefits, they'd be a time you'd have to work in the country before you were eligible, and not just for non-UK citizens, but for UK citizens too, because there are those on the take too who perhaps shouldn't be. A good system will make it work, and freedom of movement wouldn't be so much of a problem.

As for Syrian refugees, I think the EU needs to have a serious think about how to deal with such issues in the first place, rather than being reactionary.

What the EU needs is strong leadership in the anti-Federalist mold. Get all those who are opposed to a Federal Europe, opposed to this that and the other, to come together and to fight for that. At present you have those who want a federal Europe being strong, and those against being weak ass mother feckers.

The EU will still be there. The UK will still have to cope with the EU. The impact of the EU will be so strong if the EU goes Federal. The laws will still be made in Westminster to conform to the EU, because it'd be easier for the country to do so.

If the UK wants to deal effectively with the EU, then it'll end up having to join the Schengen Agreement. It's the Brexit people who talk about the "Norway Option", did no one tell them Norway is in the Schengen Zone? D'oh.

I'm not sure whether or not to accept your 2/3rds estimate or not. Even if it's backed up by supporting material, do we know what the ILLEGAL tally would be ?

But check this out ...

Scandal of UK’s 863,000 illegal immigrants...one in four of the EU’s total

BRITAIN’s illegal immigrant population is the highest in Europe, official figures have revealed.

The country could be home to almost 900,000 “irregular migrants”, expert studies show.

The alarming figure is 400,000 more than second-place Italy and means the UK houses nearly one in four of the EU’s unauthorised population.

Critics last night said it was further evidence that the Government needs to regain control of its borders.

The stark statistics are contained in a European Commission research project which tried to quantify the number of illegal immigrants in each EU country in 2008.

The figures are highlighted within a controversial House of Lords report published today which, despite the figures, calls on the Government to “engage” more closely with the EU’s passport-free Schengen Area, despite the figures.

The House of Lords EU committee said it “regrets” the Government’s “negative attitude to such cooperation and hope they will reconsider”.

But critics fear that removing passport requirements for travellers heading for the UK from Europe would aid more illegal immigration.

That was back in 2008. Do you remember that Cameron tried to do something about benefit tourism to the UK ? The EU weren't happy about his initiative to toughen things up here !!

David Cameron defiant over tougher EU benefit plans - BBC News

David Cameron has defended plans to toughen welfare rules for EU migrants, saying he was sending a "clear message" to people that the UK was not a "soft touch" for claiming benefits.

He said he shared public concerns about the end of work restrictions on Bulgarians and Romanians next month.
Labour says he should have acted sooner and a European commissioner warned the UK risked being seen as "nasty".
But the prime minister said: "British people expect fairness."

European Employment Commissioner Laszlo Andor described Mr Cameron's proposals as "an unfortunate over-reaction", adding that EU rules applied equally to all 28 member states and had been agreed to by the UK.

It isn't just that we want to take measures about benefit tourism ... it's that the EU has been against us being tough over it !!

If we get out of the EU, the EU 'going federal' won't be our problem. If we stay in ... then we're in a worse position still ! And I reject any 'we will be disadvantaged over trade' argument. If the EU represented a greater than 50% share of available world trade, AND it could be guaranteed that no EU country would ever trade with us, I'd say you may have a point. But of course, the EU does not reach that 50% percentage. So, we may well be a lot BETTER off ...

 

[Drummond]

Its a discussion between two sides who are talking different languages.

The "remainers" are generally younger, better educated and more sophisticated. They see opportunities in Europe and welcome them.

The "outers" are generally older,easily influenced and averse to change.They dont like hearing foreign languages in the street and believe that the EU is slowly taking over the Britain they know and love.

"Remainers" dont see immigration as a big deal but "outers" have little interest in any other issue.

Whereas there are others who see immigration as an issue, want the EU to change, but don't see leaving as the solution to the problem.

Immigration, as an EU issue, won't change. The EU regards the free movement of EU citizens between Member States as sacrosanct ... a 'foundling principle'. Not even the massive influx of refugees from Syria (etc) has caused the EU to turn away from such a principle. Anyone believing this can become an issue where the EU as a whole will somehow be persuaded to change its policy on, are deluding themselves. The only alternative to accepting the status quo IS to leave ... simple fact ... !!

The problem here is how you look at things. People are annoyed that foreigners come in. 2/3rds of those foreigners going in aren't EU citizens and don't have that right in the first place. It's the UK GOVERNMENT that lets them in. Somehow those who want to leave the EU think it will get better if the UK leaves the EU, how they think this I have no idea.

From the point of view of EU citizens going in, the issues aren't that difficult, except for politicians of course.

Take welfare payments and unemployment payments and all that stuff. If there were a proper system in place, then EU citizens wouldn't be able to just enter the UK and take benefits, they'd be a time you'd have to work in the country before you were eligible, and not just for non-UK citizens, but for UK citizens too, because there are those on the take too who perhaps shouldn't be. A good system will make it work, and freedom of movement wouldn't be so much of a problem.

As for Syrian refugees, I think the EU needs to have a serious think about how to deal with such issues in the first place, rather than being reactionary.

What the EU needs is strong leadership in the anti-Federalist mold. Get all those who are opposed to a Federal Europe, opposed to this that and the other, to come together and to fight for that. At present you have those who want a federal Europe being strong, and those against being weak ass mother feckers.

The EU will still be there. The UK will still have to cope with the EU. The impact of the EU will be so strong if the EU goes Federal. The laws will still be made in Westminster to conform to the EU, because it'd be easier for the country to do so.

If the UK wants to deal effectively with the EU, then it'll end up having to join the Schengen Agreement. It's the Brexit people who talk about the "Norway Option", did no one tell them Norway is in the Schengen Zone? D'oh.

That is what the UK government wanted to bring in, but because the looney lefties signed away our rights to set our own welfare laws the E.U. courts stopped it from going ahead. This meant that we had to accept 500,000 unemployable Romanians invading the UK and camping out in parks while waiting for a fully furnished house, latest OLED T.V., XBOX, PC, cell phones and then welfare as high as £20k a year.

If we leave the E.U. the whole sorry affair will collapse under unpaid debts and failing economies. Greece, Portugal and Ireland combined did not pay in half of what the UK pays in, and then we are fined the same amount for infringement of laws we never knew existed.

We wont be forced into the Schengen zone and the E.U. knows this, we will negotiate fair trade deals and be back to a level playing field again.


Just one example of E.U. legislation that is unfair to UK business. Any logistics company from Europe can use UK roads free of charge while our own logistics pay taxes to drive on the road and on the fuel used. This puts up the price to the consumer that goes straight into the European logistics companies profits. So the current government introduced a simple payment to foreign hauliers of £300 a week or £10k a year for every HGV ( comparable to UK business outlay after tax relief ). The E.U. has made this illegal as the European hauliers are finding it hard to pay the sums.

My prospective UKIP councillor told me that we could expect 5 million Bulgarian beggars here on January 1rst. I nodded at the old fool before telling him to fuck off my land.Why do your type feel the need to lie so much ?
Is it because you have no case ?

500,000 Romanians living in a park ? Why not just say 5000 ? You undermine your racism by making such bizarre claims.

You really are a lying piece of shit.

Maybe those 500,000 Romanians wasn't actually a 'true' figure ... in that it didn't happen. Nonetheless, I invite you to prove to me that there was no way at all it COULDN'T have happened. By what means would such an influx ever have been prevented ? Kindly prove that it was preventable !!

 

[Drummond]

I expected there to be more debate. So far from the Brexit side all I see is petty nationalism with no real logic at all.

Its a discussion between two sides who are talking different languages.

The "remainers" are generally younger, better educated and more sophisticated. They see opportunities in Europe and welcome them.

The "outers" are generally older,easily influenced and averse to change.They dont like hearing foreign languages in the street and believe that the EU is slowly taking over the Britain they know and love.

"Remainers" dont see immigration as a big deal but "outers" have little interest in any other issue.

Whereas there are others who see immigration as an issue, want the EU to change, but don't see leaving as the solution to the problem.

Immigration, as an EU issue, won't change. The EU regards the free movement of EU citizens between Member States as sacrosanct ... a 'foundling principle'. Not even the massive influx of refugees from Syria (etc) has caused the EU to turn away from such a principle. Anyone believing this can become an issue where the EU as a whole will somehow be persuaded to change its policy on, are deluding themselves. The only alternative to accepting the status quo IS to leave ... simple fact ... !!

The problem here is how you look at things. People are annoyed that foreigners come in. 2/3rds of those foreigners going in aren't EU citizens and don't have that right in the first place. It's the UK GOVERNMENT that lets them in. Somehow those who want to leave the EU think it will get better if the UK leaves the EU, how they think this I have no idea.

From the point of view of EU citizens going in, the issues aren't that difficult, except for politicians of course.

Take welfare payments and unemployment payments and all that stuff. If there were a proper system in place, then EU citizens wouldn't be able to just enter the UK and take benefits, they'd be a time you'd have to work in the country before you were eligible, and not just for non-UK citizens, but for UK citizens too, because there are those on the take too who perhaps shouldn't be. A good system will make it work, and freedom of movement wouldn't be so much of a problem.

As for Syrian refugees, I think the EU needs to have a serious think about how to deal with such issues in the first place, rather than being reactionary.

What the EU needs is strong leadership in the anti-Federalist mold. Get all those who are opposed to a Federal Europe, opposed to this that and the other, to come together and to fight for that. At present you have those who want a federal Europe being strong, and those against being weak ass mother feckers.

The EU will still be there. The UK will still have to cope with the EU. The impact of the EU will be so strong if the EU goes Federal. The laws will still be made in Westminster to conform to the EU, because it'd be easier for the country to do so.

If the UK wants to deal effectively with the EU, then it'll end up having to join the Schengen Agreement. It's the Brexit people who talk about the "Norway Option", did no one tell them Norway is in the Schengen Zone? D'oh.

There is an anti federalist core in the EU parliament. But rather than look to reform they sit apart from the process.They dont speak,they dont engage and they dont vote. They just do enough to collect the generous expenses on offer.

We all know that the EU Parliament is a 'gravy train' to all those fortunate enough to work within it. How much of that effect comes out of British contributions to the EU, I wonder ... ??

As for the EU going 'federal' ...all the more reason to be concerned for our sovereignty, if we remain !!!!! We are still better out than in.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Whereas there are others who see immigration as an issue, want the EU to change, but don't see leaving as the solution to the problem.

Immigration, as an EU issue, won't change. The EU regards the free movement of EU citizens between Member States as sacrosanct ... a 'foundling principle'. Not even the massive influx of refugees from Syria (etc) has caused the EU to turn away from such a principle. Anyone believing this can become an issue where the EU as a whole will somehow be persuaded to change its policy on, are deluding themselves. The only alternative to accepting the status quo IS to leave ... simple fact ... !!

The problem here is how you look at things. People are annoyed that foreigners come in. 2/3rds of those foreigners going in aren't EU citizens and don't have that right in the first place. It's the UK GOVERNMENT that lets them in. Somehow those who want to leave the EU think it will get better if the UK leaves the EU, how they think this I have no idea.

From the point of view of EU citizens going in, the issues aren't that difficult, except for politicians of course.

Take welfare payments and unemployment payments and all that stuff. If there were a proper system in place, then EU citizens wouldn't be able to just enter the UK and take benefits, they'd be a time you'd have to work in the country before you were eligible, and not just for non-UK citizens, but for UK citizens too, because there are those on the take too who perhaps shouldn't be. A good system will make it work, and freedom of movement wouldn't be so much of a problem.

As for Syrian refugees, I think the EU needs to have a serious think about how to deal with such issues in the first place, rather than being reactionary.

What the EU needs is strong leadership in the anti-Federalist mold. Get all those who are opposed to a Federal Europe, opposed to this that and the other, to come together and to fight for that. At present you have those who want a federal Europe being strong, and those against being weak ass mother feckers.

The EU will still be there. The UK will still have to cope with the EU. The impact of the EU will be so strong if the EU goes Federal. The laws will still be made in Westminster to conform to the EU, because it'd be easier for the country to do so.

If the UK wants to deal effectively with the EU, then it'll end up having to join the Schengen Agreement. It's the Brexit people who talk about the "Norway Option", did no one tell them Norway is in the Schengen Zone? D'oh.

That is what the UK government wanted to bring in, but because the looney lefties signed away our rights to set our own welfare laws the E.U. courts stopped it from going ahead. This meant that we had to accept 500,000 unemployable Romanians invading the UK and camping out in parks while waiting for a fully furnished house, latest OLED T.V., XBOX, PC, cell phones and then welfare as high as £20k a year.

If we leave the E.U. the whole sorry affair will collapse under unpaid debts and failing economies. Greece, Portugal and Ireland combined did not pay in half of what the UK pays in, and then we are fined the same amount for infringement of laws we never knew existed.

We wont be forced into the Schengen zone and the E.U. knows this, we will negotiate fair trade deals and be back to a level playing field again.


Just one example of E.U. legislation that is unfair to UK business. Any logistics company from Europe can use UK roads free of charge while our own logistics pay taxes to drive on the road and on the fuel used. This puts up the price to the consumer that goes straight into the European logistics companies profits. So the current government introduced a simple payment to foreign hauliers of £300 a week or £10k a year for every HGV ( comparable to UK business outlay after tax relief ). The E.U. has made this illegal as the European hauliers are finding it hard to pay the sums.

My prospective UKIP councillor told me that we could expect 5 million Bulgarian beggars here on January 1rst. I nodded at the old fool before telling him to fuck off my land.Why do your type feel the need to lie so much ?
Is it because you have no case ?

500,000 Romanians living in a park ? Why not just say 5000 ? You undermine your racism by making such bizarre claims.

You really are a lying piece of shit.

Maybe those 500,000 Romanians wasn't actually a 'true' figure ... in that it didn't happen. Nonetheless, I invite you to prove to me that there was no way at all it COULDN'T have happened. By what means would such an influx ever have been prevented ? Kindly prove that it was preventable !!

But that is exactly the point of the brexit case. It is built on lies and exaggerated nonsense.Characters like this create a toxic forum where real issues can not be discussed.
To address the further point you make - it didnt happen. It never was going to happen. In theory I could pass an elephant through the eye of a needle but thats not going to happen either.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Its a discussion between two sides who are talking different languages.

The "remainers" are generally younger, better educated and more sophisticated. They see opportunities in Europe and welcome them.

The "outers" are generally older,easily influenced and averse to change.They dont like hearing foreign languages in the street and believe that the EU is slowly taking over the Britain they know and love.

"Remainers" dont see immigration as a big deal but "outers" have little interest in any other issue.

Whereas there are others who see immigration as an issue, want the EU to change, but don't see leaving as the solution to the problem.

Immigration, as an EU issue, won't change. The EU regards the free movement of EU citizens between Member States as sacrosanct ... a 'foundling principle'. Not even the massive influx of refugees from Syria (etc) has caused the EU to turn away from such a principle. Anyone believing this can become an issue where the EU as a whole will somehow be persuaded to change its policy on, are deluding themselves. The only alternative to accepting the status quo IS to leave ... simple fact ... !!

The problem here is how you look at things. People are annoyed that foreigners come in. 2/3rds of those foreigners going in aren't EU citizens and don't have that right in the first place. It's the UK GOVERNMENT that lets them in. Somehow those who want to leave the EU think it will get better if the UK leaves the EU, how they think this I have no idea.

From the point of view of EU citizens going in, the issues aren't that difficult, except for politicians of course.

Take welfare payments and unemployment payments and all that stuff. If there were a proper system in place, then EU citizens wouldn't be able to just enter the UK and take benefits, they'd be a time you'd have to work in the country before you were eligible, and not just for non-UK citizens, but for UK citizens too, because there are those on the take too who perhaps shouldn't be. A good system will make it work, and freedom of movement wouldn't be so much of a problem.

As for Syrian refugees, I think the EU needs to have a serious think about how to deal with such issues in the first place, rather than being reactionary.

What the EU needs is strong leadership in the anti-Federalist mold. Get all those who are opposed to a Federal Europe, opposed to this that and the other, to come together and to fight for that. At present you have those who want a federal Europe being strong, and those against being weak ass mother feckers.

The EU will still be there. The UK will still have to cope with the EU. The impact of the EU will be so strong if the EU goes Federal. The laws will still be made in Westminster to conform to the EU, because it'd be easier for the country to do so.

If the UK wants to deal effectively with the EU, then it'll end up having to join the Schengen Agreement. It's the Brexit people who talk about the "Norway Option", did no one tell them Norway is in the Schengen Zone? D'oh.

There is an anti federalist core in the EU parliament. But rather than look to reform they sit apart from the process.They dont speak,they dont engage and they dont vote. They just do enough to collect the generous expenses on offer.

We all know that the EU Parliament is a 'gravy train' to all those fortunate enough to work within it. How much of that effect comes out of British contributions to the EU, I wonder ... ??

As for the EU going 'federal' ...all the more reason to be concerned for our sovereignty, if we remain !!!!! We are still better out than in.

If only the MEPs were as honest and upstanding as their Westminster counterparts.

 

[frigidweirdo]

I expected there to be more debate. So far from the Brexit side all I see is petty nationalism with no real logic at all.

Its a discussion between two sides who are talking different languages.

The "remainers" are generally younger, better educated and more sophisticated. They see opportunities in Europe and welcome them.

The "outers" are generally older,easily influenced and averse to change.They dont like hearing foreign languages in the street and believe that the EU is slowly taking over the Britain they know and love.

"Remainers" dont see immigration as a big deal but "outers" have little interest in any other issue.

Whereas there are others who see immigration as an issue, want the EU to change, but don't see leaving as the solution to the problem.

Immigration, as an EU issue, won't change. The EU regards the free movement of EU citizens between Member States as sacrosanct ... a 'foundling principle'. Not even the massive influx of refugees from Syria (etc) has caused the EU to turn away from such a principle. Anyone believing this can become an issue where the EU as a whole will somehow be persuaded to change its policy on, are deluding themselves. The only alternative to accepting the status quo IS to leave ... simple fact ... !!

The problem here is how you look at things. People are annoyed that foreigners come in. 2/3rds of those foreigners going in aren't EU citizens and don't have that right in the first place. It's the UK GOVERNMENT that lets them in. Somehow those who want to leave the EU think it will get better if the UK leaves the EU, how they think this I have no idea.

From the point of view of EU citizens going in, the issues aren't that difficult, except for politicians of course.

Take welfare payments and unemployment payments and all that stuff. If there were a proper system in place, then EU citizens wouldn't be able to just enter the UK and take benefits, they'd be a time you'd have to work in the country before you were eligible, and not just for non-UK citizens, but for UK citizens too, because there are those on the take too who perhaps shouldn't be. A good system will make it work, and freedom of movement wouldn't be so much of a problem.

As for Syrian refugees, I think the EU needs to have a serious think about how to deal with such issues in the first place, rather than being reactionary.

What the EU needs is strong leadership in the anti-Federalist mold. Get all those who are opposed to a Federal Europe, opposed to this that and the other, to come together and to fight for that. At present you have those who want a federal Europe being strong, and those against being weak ass mother feckers.

The EU will still be there. The UK will still have to cope with the EU. The impact of the EU will be so strong if the EU goes Federal. The laws will still be made in Westminster to conform to the EU, because it'd be easier for the country to do so.

If the UK wants to deal effectively with the EU, then it'll end up having to join the Schengen Agreement. It's the Brexit people who talk about the "Norway Option", did no one tell them Norway is in the Schengen Zone? D'oh.

That is what the UK government wanted to bring in, but because the looney lefties signed away our rights to set our own welfare laws the E.U. courts stopped it from going ahead. This meant that we had to accept 500,000 unemployable Romanians invading the UK and camping out in parks while waiting for a fully furnished house, latest OLED T.V., XBOX, PC, cell phones and then welfare as high as £20k a year.

If we leave the E.U. the whole sorry affair will collapse under unpaid debts and failing economies. Greece, Portugal and Ireland combined did not pay in half of what the UK pays in, and then we are fined the same amount for infringement of laws we never knew existed.

We wont be forced into the Schengen zone and the E.U. knows this, we will negotiate fair trade deals and be back to a level playing field again.


Just one example of E.U. legislation that is unfair to UK business. Any logistics company from Europe can use UK roads free of charge while our own logistics pay taxes to drive on the road and on the fuel used. This puts up the price to the consumer that goes straight into the European logistics companies profits. So the current government introduced a simple payment to foreign hauliers of £300 a week or £10k a year for every HGV ( comparable to UK business outlay after tax relief ). The E.U. has made this illegal as the European hauliers are finding it hard to pay the sums.

I'm sorry, where did the EU stop the UK from making its own welfare laws?

What you're talking about is equality of the law among EU citizens. I'm talking about keeping the law equal but making sure those people who haven't worked in the UK for enough time simply don't get benefits, regardless of whether they're British or not. But then I wrote this before, did you read it?

I didn't say the UK would be "forced" into the Schengen Zone. What I said was that the Brexit people used to speak about the "Norway Option", which would mean joining the Schengen Zone, and also that in order to get trading done easier, as happens now being in the EU, the UK might have to seriously consider joining Schengen.

The Brexit people will say things like "but, we'll just do a deal with the EU and everything will be the same" without realizing that such a deal might have to include joining Schengen. Without it the UK might lose trade and be worse off than staying in the EU.

I'm not denying that the EU causes problems to the UK. I'm not saying there aren't valid reasons to leave. What I'm saying is there is a balance. Leaving is not beneficial to the UK, staying is not beneficial to the UK, so which one do you choose?

Apparently the UK was "stronger together", remember that from the Scottish Referendum, which many of the Brexit people opposed Scotland leaving? Now we're not "stronger together". Well which is it?

 

[frigidweirdo]

I'm not sure whether or not to accept your 2/3rds estimate or not. Even if it's backed up by supporting material, do we know what the ILLEGAL tally would be ?

But check this out ...

Scandal of UK’s 863,000 illegal immigrants...one in four of the EU’s total

BRITAIN’s illegal immigrant population is the highest in Europe, official figures have revealed.

The country could be home to almost 900,000 “irregular migrants”, expert studies show.

The alarming figure is 400,000 more than second-place Italy and means the UK houses nearly one in four of the EU’s unauthorised population.

Critics last night said it was further evidence that the Government needs to regain control of its borders.

The stark statistics are contained in a European Commission research project which tried to quantify the number of illegal immigrants in each EU country in 2008.

The figures are highlighted within a controversial House of Lords report published today which, despite the figures, calls on the Government to “engage” more closely with the EU’s passport-free Schengen Area, despite the figures.

The House of Lords EU committee said it “regrets” the Government’s “negative attitude to such cooperation and hope they will reconsider”.

But critics fear that removing passport requirements for travellers heading for the UK from Europe would aid more illegal immigration.

That was back in 2008. Do you remember that Cameron tried to do something about benefit tourism to the UK ? The EU weren't happy about his initiative to toughen things up here !!

David Cameron defiant over tougher EU benefit plans - BBC News

David Cameron has defended plans to toughen welfare rules for EU migrants, saying he was sending a "clear message" to people that the UK was not a "soft touch" for claiming benefits.

He said he shared public concerns about the end of work restrictions on Bulgarians and Romanians next month.
Labour says he should have acted sooner and a European commissioner warned the UK risked being seen as "nasty".
But the prime minister said: "British people expect fairness."

European Employment Commissioner Laszlo Andor described Mr Cameron's proposals as "an unfortunate over-reaction", adding that EU rules applied equally to all 28 member states and had been agreed to by the UK.

It isn't just that we want to take measures about benefit tourism ... it's that the EU has been against us being tough over it !!

If we get out of the EU, the EU 'going federal' won't be our problem. If we stay in ... then we're in a worse position still ! And I reject any 'we will be disadvantaged over trade' argument. If the EU represented a greater than 50% share of available world trade, AND it could be guaranteed that no EU country would ever trade with us, I'd say you may have a point. But of course, the EU does not reach that 50% percentage. So, we may well be a lot BETTER off ...

Sure, it might include a lot of illegal immigrants. However EU citizens don't need to be illegal, they can just rock up and be legal. So...... why would they?

Personally I've seen Russians on visa runs with the intention of staying in the UK. I was in a hostel in St. Petersburg and two girls there were doing that, get a six month visa, then never leave. One girl got the visa, the other didn't.

That article is a typical Express nonsense article which tells you less than you'd need to know to make a judgement. Why? Because they're telling you what to think.
Shitty journalism at its worst and how many people will vote to leave because they read such crap?

Yes, Cameron has restricted visas quite a bit, it's one of the few things I think he has done well at. He even imposed a three month wait for welfare. Personally I'd put it up to five years.

The EU has been against the UK? Really? Or it just imposes the same laws on everyone and the British people start getting annoyed about it? Probably the latter. But then why don't the British take a stronger stand with the EU instead of moaning all the time?

If the UK leaves the EU, the EU going federal WILL be a major problem for the UK. The stronger the EU is, the harder it will be for the UK to do what it wishes.

Imagine countries like San Marino and Andorra. How independent are they really? They have open borders with their neighbors, they have a lot of things that are essentially the same, they have to act like a small country that has no power.

Then look to larger countries like Canada, how much influence does the US have on Canada?

The EU is about 50% of UK trade. It depends on the year, sometimes more, sometimes less. Since the economic crisis hit Europe and the US, trade with those has dropped as a percentage.

However losing even 2% of trade would impact the UK hard.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Its a discussion between two sides who are talking different languages.

The "remainers" are generally younger, better educated and more sophisticated. They see opportunities in Europe and welcome them.

The "outers" are generally older,easily influenced and averse to change.They dont like hearing foreign languages in the street and believe that the EU is slowly taking over the Britain they know and love.

"Remainers" dont see immigration as a big deal but "outers" have little interest in any other issue.

Whereas there are others who see immigration as an issue, want the EU to change, but don't see leaving as the solution to the problem.

Immigration, as an EU issue, won't change. The EU regards the free movement of EU citizens between Member States as sacrosanct ... a 'foundling principle'. Not even the massive influx of refugees from Syria (etc) has caused the EU to turn away from such a principle. Anyone believing this can become an issue where the EU as a whole will somehow be persuaded to change its policy on, are deluding themselves. The only alternative to accepting the status quo IS to leave ... simple fact ... !!

The problem here is how you look at things. People are annoyed that foreigners come in. 2/3rds of those foreigners going in aren't EU citizens and don't have that right in the first place. It's the UK GOVERNMENT that lets them in. Somehow those who want to leave the EU think it will get better if the UK leaves the EU, how they think this I have no idea.

From the point of view of EU citizens going in, the issues aren't that difficult, except for politicians of course.

Take welfare payments and unemployment payments and all that stuff. If there were a proper system in place, then EU citizens wouldn't be able to just enter the UK and take benefits, they'd be a time you'd have to work in the country before you were eligible, and not just for non-UK citizens, but for UK citizens too, because there are those on the take too who perhaps shouldn't be. A good system will make it work, and freedom of movement wouldn't be so much of a problem.

As for Syrian refugees, I think the EU needs to have a serious think about how to deal with such issues in the first place, rather than being reactionary.

What the EU needs is strong leadership in the anti-Federalist mold. Get all those who are opposed to a Federal Europe, opposed to this that and the other, to come together and to fight for that. At present you have those who want a federal Europe being strong, and those against being weak ass mother feckers.

The EU will still be there. The UK will still have to cope with the EU. The impact of the EU will be so strong if the EU goes Federal. The laws will still be made in Westminster to conform to the EU, because it'd be easier for the country to do so.

If the UK wants to deal effectively with the EU, then it'll end up having to join the Schengen Agreement. It's the Brexit people who talk about the "Norway Option", did no one tell them Norway is in the Schengen Zone? D'oh.

There is an anti federalist core in the EU parliament. But rather than look to reform they sit apart from the process.They dont speak,they dont engage and they dont vote. They just do enough to collect the generous expenses on offer.

We all know that the EU Parliament is a 'gravy train' to all those fortunate enough to work within it. How much of that effect comes out of British contributions to the EU, I wonder ... ??

As for the EU going 'federal' ...all the more reason to be concerned for our sovereignty, if we remain !!!!! We are still better out than in.

The UK is better out than in?

How?

Based on petty nationalism? Seeing as the Brexit side is coming up with nonsense rather than actual facts.

Let's try the Express. 400,000 people read this trash every day.

Even China is fed up with EU fat cats as official tells Brussels ‘stop INTERFERING’

"Even China is fed up with EU fat cats as official tells Brussels ‘stop INTERFERING’"

A Chinese official slams the EU. Well, Chinese officials slam the US and other stronger nations on a constant basis. It's a policy of China's to literally do what it likes. This has a lot to do with China, and not that much to do with the UK leaving the EU, but they dress it up.
The message "the EU is bad", but the story doesn't have much to do with this at all.

Fury over Tory minister's claim it would take YEARS to form new trade deal with Brussels

"
Fury over Tory minister's claim it would take YEARS to form new trade deal with Brussels"
"Tory MP David Nuttall said: "This is another example of the Remain camp painting the worst scenario they can imagine rather than having any belief or confidence in the abilities of ministers to negotiate new deals.""

Except the Brexit people want to leave the EU because UK ministers can't negotiate deals with the EU. Hmm.

Basically the essence of this is that the Brexit people are annoyed that the other side keeps on saying worst case scenarios, as if the British people don't need to know the worst case scenarios when making a very important decision.

""After we Vote Leave the EU will be banging on door for a trade deal which, like other trade deals would be concluded in less than two years."

Really? They say this, as if they KNOW this will happen. But clearly they don't know. But this is 2 years. 2 years of shitty deals, or no deals. Er.... right.

Experts warn European Union will ‘DISINTEGRATE’ if Britain votes to leave in June

"
Experts warn European Union will ‘DISINTEGRATE’ if Britain votes to leave in June"

Ah, just like the Euro will collapse in 2008 and then 2009, then 2010, then 2011, then 2012.

Basically lots of reports which "experts" say could happen, but almost certainly won't. But it's all about being defiant, all about having a great political impact.