Border Adjustment Tax Is Worthy of Support

[protectionist]

So you want to ignore what actually happens with tariffs? My tire and steel examples are recent examples.

What happens with future tariffs will be determined by what happens with them, not some other tariffs.

 

[Brain357]

So you want to ignore what actually happens with tariffs? My tire and steel examples are recent examples.

What happens with future tariffs will be determined by what happens with them, not some other tariffs.

There is no reason to believe the same thing won't happen. They have been tried many times and always fail. You still trying to put the square peg in the round hole? Learn from mistakes.

 

[protectionist]

I read your OP, it's nonsense. To suggest that consumers won't have to pay for a significant BAT that IS tacked onto the cost (price) is ridiculous. I have never understood the fantasy by some on the the Left that they can raise taxes on something without raising the cost of producing a product or service.

You just don't understand simple microeconomics. There IS NO tack on. Where do you think the price of a product comes from ? Somebody's lucky number ? It is the HIGHEST price that can be charged without triggering SALES$$ reductions, thereby causing LOSSES.

Get with it. Millions of college freshmen are way ahead of you.
\
PS - I'm a right wing Trump supporter, nowhere near the left.

Read the OP again. 10 times if necessary, for it to sink in.

 

[busybee01]

A border adjustment tax is a stupid idea. It is another name for a tariff. It will invite retaliation. In addition, it will increase costs for consumers and consumers will have fewer choices. Taxes are paid by consumers not corporations so the idea that consumers will not suffer is ridiculous. Businesses cannot operate at a loss no matter what kind of curve you use.

You don't understand, it's not a zero sum game. As a result Trump can reduce other taxes.

Why bother? Kudlow who is a Trump supporter says we should concentrate on a pro-growth tax policy rather than managed trade.

You don't understand. Why bother doing all that re-adjusting?

Both will contribute to keeping Americans jobs here. Both will give us a more favorable balance of payments.

Both are attacks on the American consumer. Sad that liberals like you want to punish Americans.

Neither is an attack on consumers and how crazy do you have to be to think I am a liberal?

They are a attack on consumers. Who do you think is going to pay the tariffs? Consumers. You sound exactly like Bernie Sanders who is a socialist.

 

[protectionist]

There is no reason to believe the same thing won't happen. They have been tried many times and always fail. You still trying to put the square peg in the round hole? Learn from mistakes.

I already addressed this. (post 31)

You're going in circles.

 

[Brain357]

There is no reason to believe the same thing won't happen. They have been tried many times and always fail. You still trying to put the square peg in the round hole? Learn from mistakes.

I already addressed this. (post 31)

You're going in circles.

You are posting nonsense and ignoring facts. Tariffs have a very long history of failure, many believe they may have lead to the Great Depression. Your claims have been tested in the real world and they have failed.

 

[Brain357]

I read your OP, it's nonsense. To suggest that consumers won't have to pay for a significant BAT that IS tacked onto the cost (price) is ridiculous. I have never understood the fantasy by some on the the Left that they can raise taxes on something without raising the cost of producing a product or service.

You just don't understand simple microeconomics. There IS NO tack on. Where do you think the price of a product comes from ? Somebody's lucky number ? It is the HIGHEST price that can be charged without triggering SALES$$ reductions, thereby causing LOSSES.

Get with it. Millions of college freshmen are way ahead of you.
\
PS - I'm a right wing Trump supporter, nowhere near the left.

Read the OP again. 10 times if necessary, for it to sink in.

When did the right decide more taxes were good for an economy?

 

[busybee01]

It was not refuted in the OP. The OP was a bunch of garbage. You also need to look at the demand curve. When you raise prices, that means that demand goes down. When demand goes down, that means jobs are lost. The fact is that Larry Kudlow calls this voodoo economics. I would rather be taught by Kudlow.

The fact is that businesses are not in business to provide Americans jobs. They produce goods and services and the consumer decides. Take your idiotic comments and go to HELL!!

You are just babbling - you know nothing about economics. Firms can't raise prices above their market price. That's why they HAVE a market price, airhead.

You are a airhead. The fact is that you know nothing about economics. Kudlow is a better economist than you.

Businesses have to make money. They cannot sell goods at or below costs and make a profit. Businesses will have to raise prices. That means lower sales and businesses will dump the product if they cannot make money.

 

[task0778]

For a former professor you seem to not want to really explain yourself further. So I'll explain your position in a nutshell, if I get it wrong feel free to correct me.
Companies will not hike prices because prices are set at the maximum level people can afford.
If that's your position I have news for you. They will hike prices and people will be able to afford it. How, you may ask? Simple by the same means people in America succeed now in living beyond their means. They call it credit. What is you think the more likely scenario. Companies swallowing their loss of revenue or a massive credit program?

The fallacy of your post is the word "afford" It's not a matter of affording. It is simply what people WILL pay based on what they perceive to be a correct price.

If you go above your market price, your sales fall - like a lead ball.

The perceived correct price changes. Talk to Grandpa,he will think the price of every item is unreasonably high. He remembers the days when you payed cent's not dollars for a hotdog for instance. He will still pay to get an hotdog, because he doesn't have a choice. Companies always put increased production costs on the consumer. Give me any example of companies swallowing increased production costs and you might have a point. Sorry I didn't reply I haven't checked this post in a while.

I read your OP, it's nonsense. To suggest that consumers won't have to pay for a significant BAT that IS tacked onto the cost (price) is ridiculous. I have never understood the fantasy by some on the the Left that they can raise taxes on something without raising the cost of producing a product or service.

You just don't understand simple microeconomics. There IS NO tack on. Where do you think the price of a product comes from ? Somebody's lucky number ? It is the HIGHEST price that can be charged without triggering SALES$$ reductions, thereby causing LOSSES.

Get with it. Millions of college freshmen are way ahead of you.
\
PS - I'm a right wing Trump supporter, nowhere near the left.

Read the OP again. 10 times if necessary, for it to sink in.

But the price has to exceed cost by a certain amount of profit, how do you not understand that? It ain't like a business can ignore the TACKED ON expense of a big BAT tax that previously didn't exist, and arbitrarily raise the price of the product by that amount. Yes, I get that a business will set their price at whatever the market will bear, but dude, if that price does not exceed the cost or does not exceed it enough to make the enterprise worthwhile then that business will begin to explore alternative measures, most of which are unpleasant. To say that the BAT has no effect is nonsense, because in so doing you are raising the costs of supply, which effects the price because price has to exceed cost by a sufficient amount.

What I think you are implying is that a business can absorb the additional cost of BAT and still operate, at the same price albeit at a lower profit. HUGE assumption there.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Of course tariffs work and every country has tariffs. The WTO allows tariffs for a number of reasons, but in general these regulations favor developing countries at the expense of developed countries. Will the tariffs the President has proposed cost consumers something, possibly but I think most American would be willing to pay a few dollars more for their next flat screen TV if it allowed their neighbor to keep his job and his house.

They won't pay a dime more.

Once only US made products are available, price competition will spur the search for greater efficiencies and the will drive prices down, but even if the available products are slightly more expensive

And the reality is:
2009 tire tariffs cost US consumers $926K per job saved and led to the loss of 3 retail jobs per factory job saved • AEI

According to our calculations, explained in this policy brief, the total cost to American consumers from higher prices resulting from safeguard tariffs on Chinese tires was around $1.1 billion in 2011. The cost per job manufacturing saved (a maximum of 1,200 jobs by our calculations) was at least $900,000 in that year (see table above).

There is NO SUCH THING as "higher prices resulting from safeguard tariffs" No firm can raise the price of its product above its market price. To do so will put it out of business.

There is tons of propaganda that is to the contrary of this simple economic reality >> it is designed for the ignorant. That is what your link is. Nothing more.

We have many years of examples like the one I posted. Tariffs have never worked. Your claims don't match reality.

Of course tariffs work and every country has tariffs. The WTO allows tariffs for a number of reasons, but in general these regulations favor developing countries at the expense of developed countries. Will the tariffs the President has proposed cost consumers something, possibly but I think most American would be willing to pay a few dollars more for their next flat screen TV if it allowed their neighbor to keep his job and his house.

They work as a tax yes. But give me an example where they ever saved jobs or increased wages. Steel tariffs saved few steel jobs at the cost of many more jobs in manufacturing.

piecemeal tariffs may have unintended adverse consequence on other parts of the economy but applies strategically, they do not, so if the price of steel to US manufacturers goes up it may make their products less competitive, but if tariffs are also imposed on the products they make, then they may become less competitive in the global market but they will enjoy increased sales in the US, and that will not only save US jobs but also create new ones. In addition, in the case of consumer products there are no adverse consequences.

 

[toomuchtime_]

You don't understand, it's not a zero sum game. As a result Trump can reduce other taxes.

Why bother? Kudlow who is a Trump supporter says we should concentrate on a pro-growth tax policy rather than managed trade.

You don't understand. Why bother doing all that re-adjusting?

Both will contribute to keeping Americans jobs here. Both will give us a more favorable balance of payments.

Both are attacks on the American consumer. Sad that liberals like you want to punish Americans.

Neither is an attack on consumers and how crazy do you have to be to think I am a liberal?

They are a attack on consumers. Who do you think is going to pay the tariffs? Consumers. You sound exactly like Bernie Sanders who is a socialist.

A consumer is some one who has a job, so saving American jobs can hardly be called an attack on consumers.

Even a broken clock is correct once a day, so the fact that Sanders also supports tariffs doesn't mean he is as right leaning as I am or that I am as left leaning as he is. Not everyone is an ideologue as you appear to be.

 

[Brain357]

Of course tariffs work and every country has tariffs. The WTO allows tariffs for a number of reasons, but in general these regulations favor developing countries at the expense of developed countries. Will the tariffs the President has proposed cost consumers something, possibly but I think most American would be willing to pay a few dollars more for their next flat screen TV if it allowed their neighbor to keep his job and his house.

They won't pay a dime more.

Once only US made products are available, price competition will spur the search for greater efficiencies and the will drive prices down, but even if the available products are slightly more expensive

And the reality is:
2009 tire tariffs cost US consumers $926K per job saved and led to the loss of 3 retail jobs per factory job saved • AEI

According to our calculations, explained in this policy brief, the total cost to American consumers from higher prices resulting from safeguard tariffs on Chinese tires was around $1.1 billion in 2011. The cost per job manufacturing saved (a maximum of 1,200 jobs by our calculations) was at least $900,000 in that year (see table above).

There is NO SUCH THING as "higher prices resulting from safeguard tariffs" No firm can raise the price of its product above its market price. To do so will put it out of business.

There is tons of propaganda that is to the contrary of this simple economic reality >> it is designed for the ignorant. That is what your link is. Nothing more.

We have many years of examples like the one I posted. Tariffs have never worked. Your claims don't match reality.

Of course tariffs work and every country has tariffs. The WTO allows tariffs for a number of reasons, but in general these regulations favor developing countries at the expense of developed countries. Will the tariffs the President has proposed cost consumers something, possibly but I think most American would be willing to pay a few dollars more for their next flat screen TV if it allowed their neighbor to keep his job and his house.

They work as a tax yes. But give me an example where they ever saved jobs or increased wages. Steel tariffs saved few steel jobs at the cost of many more jobs in manufacturing.

piecemeal tariffs may have unintended adverse consequence on other parts of the economy but applies strategically, they do not, so if the price of steel to US manufacturers goes up it may make their products less competitive, but if tariffs are also imposed on the products they make, then they may become less competitive in the global market but they will enjoy increased sales in the US, and that will not only save US jobs but also create new ones. In addition, in the case of consumer products there are no adverse consequences.

Killing exports will not create US jobs. Good luck exporting any overpriced cars.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Of course tariffs work and every country has tariffs. The WTO allows tariffs for a number of reasons, but in general these regulations favor developing countries at the expense of developed countries. Will the tariffs the President has proposed cost consumers something, possibly but I think most American would be willing to pay a few dollars more for their next flat screen TV if it allowed their neighbor to keep his job and his house.

They won't pay a dime more.

Once only US made products are available, price competition will spur the search for greater efficiencies and the will drive prices down, but even if the available products are slightly more expensive

There is NO SUCH THING as "higher prices resulting from safeguard tariffs" No firm can raise the price of its product above its market price. To do so will put it out of business.

There is tons of propaganda that is to the contrary of this simple economic reality >> it is designed for the ignorant. That is what your link is. Nothing more.

We have many years of examples like the one I posted. Tariffs have never worked. Your claims don't match reality.

Of course tariffs work and every country has tariffs. The WTO allows tariffs for a number of reasons, but in general these regulations favor developing countries at the expense of developed countries. Will the tariffs the President has proposed cost consumers something, possibly but I think most American would be willing to pay a few dollars more for their next flat screen TV if it allowed their neighbor to keep his job and his house.

They work as a tax yes. But give me an example where they ever saved jobs or increased wages. Steel tariffs saved few steel jobs at the cost of many more jobs in manufacturing.

piecemeal tariffs may have unintended adverse consequence on other parts of the economy but applies strategically, they do not, so if the price of steel to US manufacturers goes up it may make their products less competitive, but if tariffs are also imposed on the products they make, then they may become less competitive in the global market but they will enjoy increased sales in the US, and that will not only save US jobs but also create new ones. In addition, in the case of consumer products there are no adverse consequences.

Killing exports will not create US jobs. Good luck exporting any overpriced cars.

Clearly, you don't understand the tariffs that will be imposed. The US exports many cars now and that will not change. What the tariffs will do is to make foreign cars sold in the US more expensive, therefore giving US manufacturers an even playing field on which to compete. So if Ford manufactures cars for sale around the world in Mexico, the tariffs will not effect it, but if exports those cars to the US, it will be hit with the tariff. Since the other part of the President's plan to save US jobs is to provide significant tax relief to US manufacturers, US cars will have the flexibility to become even more price competitive around the world.

 

[Brain357]

Of course tariffs work and every country has tariffs. The WTO allows tariffs for a number of reasons, but in general these regulations favor developing countries at the expense of developed countries. Will the tariffs the President has proposed cost consumers something, possibly but I think most American would be willing to pay a few dollars more for their next flat screen TV if it allowed their neighbor to keep his job and his house.

They won't pay a dime more.

Once only US made products are available, price competition will spur the search for greater efficiencies and the will drive prices down, but even if the available products are slightly more expensive

We have many years of examples like the one I posted. Tariffs have never worked. Your claims don't match reality.

Of course tariffs work and every country has tariffs. The WTO allows tariffs for a number of reasons, but in general these regulations favor developing countries at the expense of developed countries. Will the tariffs the President has proposed cost consumers something, possibly but I think most American would be willing to pay a few dollars more for their next flat screen TV if it allowed their neighbor to keep his job and his house.

They work as a tax yes. But give me an example where they ever saved jobs or increased wages. Steel tariffs saved few steel jobs at the cost of many more jobs in manufacturing.

piecemeal tariffs may have unintended adverse consequence on other parts of the economy but applies strategically, they do not, so if the price of steel to US manufacturers goes up it may make their products less competitive, but if tariffs are also imposed on the products they make, then they may become less competitive in the global market but they will enjoy increased sales in the US, and that will not only save US jobs but also create new ones. In addition, in the case of consumer products there are no adverse consequences.

Killing exports will not create US jobs. Good luck exporting any overpriced cars.

Clearly, you don't understand the tariffs that will be imposed. The US exports many cars now and that will not change. What the tariffs will do is to make foreign cars sold in the US more expensive, therefore giving US manufacturers an even playing field on which to compete. So if Ford manufactures cars for sale around the world in Mexico, the tariffs will not effect it, but if exports those cars to the US, it will be hit with the tariff. Since the other part of the President's plan to save US jobs is to provide significant tax relief to US manufacturers, US cars will have the flexibility to become even more price competitive around the world.

Yes that will change. We import lots or car parts and raw materials. Those will become more expensive increasing the cost of our cars. This will decrease demand and cost jobs. Exports will fall. Not to mention other countries will probably increase tariffs on our products.

 

[protectionist]

You are posting nonsense and ignoring facts. Tariffs have a very long history of failure, many believe they may have lead to the Great Depression. Your claims have been tested in the real world and they have failed.

I'm ignoring facts that SHOULD be ignored. And the reason why they should, is because they represent a time in our history that is not applicable to the present. I'm not saying that tariffs were bad in the past, but good or bad, they were at a time when we didn't have millions of manufacturing jobs lost to overseas outsourcing companies.

No, tariffs were NOT "tested" >> under the conditions existing today. Your run of the mill argument has been refuted 100,000 times over the past 2 years.

 

[protectionist]

When did the right decide more taxes were good for an economy?

The post has no connection to the quote.

 

[protectionist]

You are a airhead. The fact is that you know nothing about economics. Kudlow is a better economist than you.

Businesses have to make money. They cannot sell goods at or below costs and make a profit. Businesses will have to raise prices. That means lower sales and businesses will dump the product if they cannot make money.

Like I said you know nothing about economics. Business will NOT have to raise prices, because they CANNOT do that. Firms can't raise prices above their market price. How do you think that price was established ? Somebody's lucky number ? Somebody's birthday ? Somebody's favorite football players jersey number ?

It is the HIGHEST price that the market will bear. Any higher and the firm will LOSE money from the reduction in sales. That's why the price is what it is. Did it ever dawn on you that if the firm could make more money with a higher price, it would have ALREADY set the price at that point.

The top 2 reasons why companies go out of business, is due to poor management, and the # 1 reason for the poor management is setting prices above their market price, and laying off workers, when they CANNOT do that either.
Both of these actions result in reductions in SALES, and both cause LOSSES, not gains.

Sometimes companies DO these things. They're the dum dums who go out of business. It doesn't legally require a college course to open a business. It just requires money. So people with a lot of money go barging into a business with (like you) no knowledege of micoeconomics, never bothered to take the course, make every mistake in the book, and are out of business in no time. Ho hum. I've been watching this for 40 years.

 

[protectionist]

But the price has to exceed cost by a certain amount of profit, how do you not understand that? It ain't like a business can ignore the TACKED ON expense of a big BAT tax that previously didn't exist, and arbitrarily raise the price of the product by that amount. Yes, I get that a business will set their price at whatever the market will bear, but dude, if that price does not exceed the cost or does not exceed it enough to make the enterprise worthwhile then that business will begin to explore alternative measures, most of which are unpleasant. To say that the BAT has no effect is nonsense, because in so doing you are raising the costs of supply, which effects the price because price has to exceed cost by a sufficient amount.

What I think you are implying is that a business can absorb the additional cost of BAT and still operate, at the same price albeit at a lower profit. HUGE assumption there.

1. Of course the price has to exceed cost by a certain amount of profit. So ??

2. I didn't say "the BAT has no effect" Those are YOUR words, not mine.

3. The BAT affects the profit margin (or could even nullify it), but it still has no effect on the PRICE. The price comes from ONE thing >. what people see as a correct price for the product, what they're willing to pay and not willing to pay, and this is one of the most difficult things to change. People have a very firm idea of what something is supposed to cost. Your go above that, and they turn off like a light switch. Getting it now ?

4. You think WRONG. I never imply, insinuate, or infer anything, ever. If I have something to say, I say it. And I 'm not assuming anything either.Some business may be able to absorb the additional cost of BAT and still operate, some may not. For the ones who cannot still operate, THEY DON'T. They go out of business - showing that were unable to be in business in the first place, and shouldn't have been. If you're an American business owner (as I was once), you should pay AMERICANS a decent, standard American wage, or you shouldn't be in business. Second time I'm saying this in this thread.

 

[protectionist]

Clearly, you don't understand the tariffs that will be imposed. The US exports many cars now and that will not change. What the tariffs will do is to make foreign cars sold in the US more expensive, therefore giving US manufacturers an even playing field on which to compete. So if Ford manufactures cars for sale around the world in Mexico, the tariffs will not effect it, but if exports those cars to the US, it will be hit with the tariff. Since the other part of the President's plan to save US jobs is to provide significant tax relief to US manufacturers, US cars will have the flexibility to become even more price competitive around the world.

The tariffs won't "make foreign cars sold in the US more expensive" If the car companies foolishly DO raise their prices, it won't be for long, because, as their research tells them, this will trigger sales reductions which will cause LOSSES$$$$$.

 

[protectionist]

Yes that will change. We import lots or car parts and raw materials. Those will become more expensive increasing the cost of our cars. This will decrease demand and cost jobs. Exports will fall. Not to mention other countries will probably increase tariffs on our products.

FALSE! The tariffs won't "make foreign cars sold in the US more expensive" If the car companies foolishly DO raise their prices, it won't be for long, because, as their research tells them, this will trigger sales reductions which will cause LOSSES$$$$$.

Other countries ALREADY have large tariffs on our exports. The trade war you try to scare us with, has been in existence for decades. The only thing changing is that instead of the other countries fighting us, while we did nothing, now we will fight in that trade war as well. And we will win in a walk. Why ? Simply because we have, by far, the biggest MARKET in the world. We have hundreds of millions of CONSUMERS with money in our pockets. Bottom line ? They need us more than we need them.

As Pat Buchanan, has said "We'll eat their lunch."