Big Business Got Greedy

[catzmeow]

and the democrats voter bloc.. end of story..
now you want to parse the arguement, not only do they not support these actions they actively fight to abolish them the ACLU is the biggest impediment to stemming the tide of illegal immigration,, so, it you don't object to that practice get used to living with illegals,, it's just that simple.

No. What's simple is your thinking here. Clearly, you are one of those black/white thinkers that wants to play a simplistic blame game where you can lay the responsibility for illegal immigration at the feet of an organization that represents the great satan in your mind, an entity that you fear and villify, without even understanding how their actions often protect YOUR rights, as well.

And, for some really odd reason, you don't want to even touch on the culpability of the main group profiting from illegal immigration: corporate america.

In short, your thinking is oh so Rush Limbaugh, circa 1997.

Whatever floats your partisan boat, sweetie.

 

[WillowTree]

The ACLU has no control/power over this. They may fight for the rights of illegals, but they can't stop us from throwing them out if they are hurting the American way.

The ACLU sure didn't have any power the 6 years the GOP ran the government. And I'll bet you this illegal problem multiplied under Bush.

Enough of us want them gone. Fuck the ACLU on this issue.

Yes, this is one thing a lot of us agree on. Remember before the 06 election all of us called our Senators to tell them to fix this problem? And they passed a bullshit bill that didn't fix anything?

Sure the ACLU and Latino's had some power during the election, but now we have 2 years to do what needs to be done. All I can say is good luck to you. I'm pulling for you on this issue but I still think it's dead in the water. Who are the hispanics going to vote for if we all kick out the illegals? I think we'll be ok as long as Republicans don't try to come out looking like the good guys in this. Or they don't try to make the dems look like the bad guys in this. But of course they'll make it a wedge issue. Are there good guys and bad guys?? The Republicans want illegals for cheap labor, the Democrats for their votes.. You tell me. It looks like a win win for both parties
Now Bush and the GOP that have been in cohoots with the companies that hire these illegals, they actually had the power to do something about this problem but instead they passed a crappy law that didn't fix anything.

Actually, I hear some companies are being raided and some illegals are being sent home, so that's better than nothing. But I also here those illegals come right back. So it's an illegal employer problem.

The ACLU doesn't pay these illegals when they come here, corporations do. No but they are the biggest impediment to stop the tide of illegals..Those and the so called sanctuary cities

They turned a blind eye. They even defended hiring illegals, saying they were just doing jobs Americans won't do. I can even provide you a utube moment where John McCain said it during his campaign. Well they do a lot more than jobs we won't do. Yep, and I can show you just as many with the Democratic leaders saying the same thing.
PS. The miners that died in those mine collapses? Non union mines. Illegals were working those mines. No protection for the workers.

No arguement there not from me.

 

[WillowTree]

No. What's simple is your thinking here. Clearly, you are one of those black/white thinkers that wants to play a simplistic blame game where you can lay the responsibility for illegal immigration at the feet of an organization that represents the great satan in your mind, an entity that you fear and villify, without even understanding how their actions often protect YOUR rights, as well.

And, for some really odd reason, you don't want to even touch on the culpability of the main group profiting from illegal immigration: corporate america.

In short, your thinking is oh so Rush Limbaugh, circa 1997.

Whatever floats your partisan boat, sweetie.

nope,, didn't do that. no laying at the feet the responsibility,, what I said was, now listen carefully,, The ACLU is the biggest impediment to stemming the tide of illegals. they oppose every single solitary effort to seek out illegals, identify them, identify employers of them and to deport them. That is what I said. Now if you have no objection to the actions of the ACLU then be prepared to live with illegals. It's just that simple.

 

[sealybobo]

You're not too business savvy are you?
Is it greedy of me to want to keep what I earn, what I,not you, sacrificed and saved for? Is it greedy to want to be beholden to no one and self sufficient in retirement?

See I was taught that hard work, sacrifice and thrift were virtues, you see them as sins.



As I said before, we supply services and products of a medical nature to people in 3 states. We provide a quality service at a very fair price and pride ourselves on customer service. So if you think that's a bad thing BooBoo you are just proving what an idiot you are.



Push back against what? I earned what I have. I did the work, I sacrificed and saved, I used all my own money, no federal loans, no small business association help. We took a personal loan because we have excellent credit, we used our credit cards to buy supplies and equipment. Like I said we risked everything we had. You didn't, WE did. So why should I be happy to fork it all over to you or anyone else?



So now I'm a Nazi
Well IMO the government is out to take what's mine. Why aren't you railing against that? Is it because YOU think YOU will get what is taken from me?



Well BooBoo when "they" come after you because your 75K a year is considered too much money to earn, no one will be left to fight for you because you liked the idea of taking other people's money when you thought it was going to benefit you.

Whatever Joe the Plumber.

And if you are who you say you are, I doubt you will wait till things get bad before you lay people off. In non union companies, they lay people off just so the books look good. Or so you can increase profits.

See, you paint a picture that I can't disagree with. But I never forget the fact that you are painting a picture.

Why don't you ask me, "so bobo, if you owned a business, and you could make an extra $10k right before xmas but all I had to do was let go of a couple good employees, wouldn't you do it"?

Now that would be a more honest question from you.

Sorry Joe, but the guy making $20 million dollars will never convince me he's worth it and he'll never convince me it is ok to pay his employees $10 hr. They are worth more, you aren't worth $20 mill.


I never said hard work, sacrafice and thrift were bad things. I owned a home before any of my other friends. I had $100k in a 401K before any of them too. And I was making $85k before any of them too.

You may choose to believe I'm a whiner, but I am not. You act like this economy is booming. I am fascinated that you are still arguing.

I need to go read Rayboymarine's latest post. It was something like, "conservatives are still arguing". I assume he's talking about people like you.

How you can watch the news and still talk your shit is beyond me. And how anyone is listening is insane.

People used to say that my crazy talk was driving people away from the democratic party. Now, everyone I know sounds like me. And no one is calling me a conspiracy theorist anymore.

No one except you and willow. LOL.

But beleive it or not, I do see your points. I don't begrudge you and your success. I'm more about ending the federal reserve and ending the corrupt government we have and no i don't like lazy union workers. But you corporations are fucking more than just union workers.

But a guy like you? I say you deserve what you earn. But I also don't think you should pay your employees sub par wages. If you don't, god bless you. You are one of the good ones.

But it is true. People who get too rich and powerful are dangerous to democracy. I don't want to change the subject, but I say if you have less than $20 million, you should not pay a death tax. But anyone who is willed or enherits over $20 million dollars, they should have half of that money taxed.

I know you won't read it but maybe someone else will.

ThomHartmann.com - How Rich is Too Rich For Democracy?

 

[sealybobo]

No arguement there not from me.

I think I made a very good point.

The ACLU can invite as many illegals as they want to come to America anytime they want. Just like you and I can go to Canada and Mexico anytime we want.

BUT, If there is no one to hire them, they won't even come let alone stay.

Also, the corporations that don't provide these illegals with health insurance know that our emergency rooms will take them when they get sick.

You'll hear me say this a lot. The GOP like to socialize the losses and privatize the profits.

 

[Bern80]

Yes, but...it's a far bigger climb from the crack den in East Cleveland than from my farmhouse outside of Kansas City. So, it takes a lot longer to catch up, if you ever do.

You know that kids who fall behind in literacy in the elementary years usually DON'T catch up, statistically speaking...So, you tell me. When we have millions of Americans growing up poor, in substandard schools, when do they get the chance to catch up?

Here's where a major distinction comes into play. Most everybody on the right or left is going to be all for equal opportunity. That is what many say they are after. In reality they are after equal outcomes. Get real for a second. Are you going to conisder this problem solved if the inner city ghetto kids are afforded all of the same opportunities as the more priviledged? What if they still come up short?

While we all believe in equality of opportunity it does not garuntee equality. After an opportunity is presented it is up to the individual to decide whether or not the most is going to be made of said opportunity. This is why I say the have/ have not debate is more about behavior than anything. Think about it. Opportunities aren't going to play much of a role in a child who's atitudes and behaviors have been shapped by drug addict abusive parents. Their behavior and atitudes literally need to be rewired.

 

[WillowTree]

I think I made a very good point.

The ACLU can invite as many illegals as they want to come to America anytime they want. Just like you and I can go to Canada and Mexico anytime we want.

BUT, If there is no one to hire them, they won't even come let alone stay.

Also, the corporations that don't provide these illegals with health insurance know that our emergency rooms will take them when they get sick.

You'll hear me say this a lot. The GOP like to socialize the losses and privatize the profits.

you have some studying to do doncha? The ACLU sued and went all the way to the Supreme Court.. It is because of them that we the American Taxpayer have to under law provide for the emergency medical care of illegals.. Corporations don't provide health insurance.. so again,, as long as you support the actions of the ACLU who advocate more rights for illegals than Americans get then learn to live with the illegals,, think about it bud,,,, you can't ask an illegal for ID, but you as an American have to show your id to cash a friggin check.. boy what a DUmmie. I think you are plugged into the mainframe too.

 

[Bern80]

Whatever Joe the Plumber.

And if you are who you say you are, I doubt you will wait till things get bad before you lay people off. In non union companies, they lay people off just so the books look good. Or so you can increase profits.

See, you paint a picture that I can't disagree with. But I never forget the fact that you are painting a picture.

Translation: You are banking on the fact that he is liar because that's all your left with. Pathetic.

 

[sealybobo]

you have some studying to do doncha? The ACLU sued and went all the way to the Supreme Court.. It is because of them that we the American Taxpayer have to under law provide for the emergency medical care of illegals.. Corporations don't provide health insurance.. so again,, as long as you support the actions of the ACLU who advocate more rights for illegals than Americans get then learn to live with the illegals,, think about it bud,,,, you can't ask an illegal for ID, but you as an American have to show your id to cash a friggin check.. boy what a DUmmie. I think you are plugged into the mainframe too.

No, I agree with you on those things. Those things are wrong.

But remember, two groups are protecting the illegals. Bleeding heart liberals and illegal employers who want the cheap labor.

And again, if no one would hire them, the ACLU could invite every illegal to come for as long as they want.

They wouldn't come. They only come for the work.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Whatever Joe the Plumber.

And if you are who you say you are, I doubt you will wait till things get bad before you lay people off. In non union companies, they lay people off just so the books look good. Or so you can increase profits.

Again you show your lack of business savvy. If I lay off an employee, it will cost me money because I won't be able to provide the level of service my customers are used to. The only time I would even consider laying anyone off was as I said before when revenues failed to meet my expenses.

See, you paint a picture that I can't disagree with. But I never forget the fact that you are painting a picture.

Ah yes there it is, I'm lying right. Because we've done well this year, I'm lying. And of course your statements here are beyond refute.

See there's another difference between us, at least for the purpose of this discussion I am willing to assume you are telling the truth.

Why don't you ask me, "so bobo, if you owned a business, and you could make an extra $10k right before xmas but all I had to do was let go of a couple good employees, wouldn't you do it"?

Again your prejudice shows. I value my employees and I have a degree of loyalty to them. And let me tell you, you won't save 10 grand by firing someone in December. All you'll save is a months salary and the taxes involved. But what will firing someone cost in lost efficiency and service to my customers.

Again not too business savvy are you?

Now that would be a more honest question from you.

Sorry Joe, but the guy making $20 million dollars will never convince me he's worth it and he'll never convince me it is ok to pay his employees $10 hr. They are worth more, you aren't worth $20 mill.

I don't make 20 mill. but if my company did make 20 mill because I supplied products and services to the community that the community valued as worth 20 mill then I did indeed earn it.

I never said hard work, sacrafice and thrift were bad things. I owned a home before any of my other friends. I had $100k in a 401K before any of them too. And I was making $85k before any of them too.

But you're all for penalizing those that do succeed because somehow they don't deserve it. Somehow those that attain wealth only have done it by holding other people down and screwing the little guy so they should PAY DAMN IT!

You may choose to believe I'm a whiner, but I am not. You act like this economy is booming. I am fascinated that you are still arguing.

I need to go read Rayboymarine's latest post. It was something like, "conservatives are still arguing". I assume he's talking about people like you.

How you can watch the news and still talk your shit is beyond me. And how anyone is listening is insane.

This is not about this economy. The argument is a philosophical one where you believe the government should be punishing the successful because other people aren't successful

People used to say that my crazy talk was driving people away from the democratic party. Now, everyone I know sounds like me. And no one is calling me a conspiracy theorist anymore.

No one except you and willow. LOL.

Yeah I think you're a whacko commie pinko and we will never agree on the virtues of small government and true libertarianism

But beleive it or not, I do see your points. I don't begrudge you and your success. I'm more about ending the federal reserve and ending the corrupt government we have and no i don't like lazy union workers. But you corporations are fucking more than just union workers.

And yet you stump for larger government, more government control and more restricted trade. You want to end the fed but you do not believe in a free market.

Do you not see these are opposing positions?

But a guy like you? I say you deserve what you earn. But I also don't think you should pay your employees sub par wages. If you don't, god bless you. You are one of the good ones.

I have 2 people on my payroll that make MORE than I do because they are extremely skilled professionals in high demand. My support staff gets paid better then the industry standard for their positions and I provide 100% health insurance. But you assume I mistreat my employees because thats what ALL businesses do.

Again not too savvy

But it is true. People who get too rich and powerful are dangerous to democracy. I don't want to change the subject, but I say if you have less than $20 million, you should not pay a death tax. But anyone who is willed or enherits over $20 million dollars, they should have half of that money taxed.

I know you won't read it but maybe someone else will.

ThomHartmann.com - How Rich is Too Rich For Democracy?[/QUOTE]

 

[WillowTree]

No, I agree with you on those things. Those things are wrong.

But remember, two groups are protecting the illegals. Bleeding heart liberals and illegal employers who want the cheap labor.

And again, if no one would hire them, the ACLU could invite every illegal to come for as long as they want.

They wouldn't come. They only come for the work.

true,, (oh god it hurt to say that) but my point is the ACLU is preventing us from acting against the employment of illegals..

 

[catzmeow]

Are you going to conisder this problem solved if the inner city ghetto kids are afforded all of the same opportunities as the more priviledged? What if they still come up short?

Then it's on them. I can't fix people's families, and I can't fix their houses, but at a least, we can fix their schools, and we can clean the crime out of their neighborhoods. Having worked with these kids for years, I've seen how much good a school that provides a proper education can do in the lives of kids. And, I'm a huge fan of volunteer mentoring programs, because they provide kids with alternatives...pro-social influences.

 

[catzmeow]

true,, (oh god it hurt to say that) but my point is the ACLU is preventing us from acting against the employment of illegals..

And, as people have repeatedly told you, they aren't the only obstacle.

 

[WillowTree]

And, as people have repeatedly told you, they aren't the only obstacle.

nobody said they were the only obstacle,, I said the biggest! not the only,, can you not read english???? hello mama!

 

[catzmeow]

nobody said they were the only obstacle,, I said the biggest! not the only,, can you not read english???? hello mama!

They aren't even the biggest. Without the jobs, the flow of immigrants into this country slows to a miniscule trickle.

 

[sealybobo]

Again you show your lack of business savvy. If I lay off an employee, it will cost me money because I won't be able to provide the level of service my customers are used to. The only time I would even consider laying anyone off was as I said before when revenues failed to meet my expenses.



Ah yes there it is, I'm lying right. Because we've done well this year, I'm lying. And of course your statements here are beyond refute.

See there's another difference between us, at least for the purpose of this discussion I am willing to assume you are telling the truth.



Again your prejudice shows. I value my employees and I have a degree of loyalty to them. And let me tell you, you won't save 10 grand by firing someone in December. All you'll save is a months salary and the taxes involved. But what will firing someone cost in lost efficiency and service to my customers.

Again not too business savvy are you?



I don't make 20 mill. but if my company did make 20 mill because I supplied products and services to the community that the community valued as worth 20 mill then I did indeed earn it.



But you're all for penalizing those that do succeed because somehow they don't deserve it. Somehow those that attain wealth only have done it by holding other people down and screwing the little guy so they should PAY DAMN IT!



This is not about this economy. The argument is a philosophical one where you believe the government should be punishing the successful because other people aren't successful



Yeah I think you're a whacko commie pinko and we will never agree on the virtues of small government and true libertarianism



And yet you stump for larger government, more government control and more restricted trade. You want to end the fed but you do not believe in a free market.

Do you not see these are opposing positions?



I have 2 people on my payroll that make MORE than I do because they are extremely skilled professionals in high demand. My support staff gets paid better then the industry standard for their positions and I provide 100% health insurance. But you assume I mistreat my employees because thats what ALL businesses do.

Again not too savvy





ThomHartmann.com - How Rich is Too Rich For Democracy?

[/QUOTE]


All I know is i worked for a guy who owned a New Horizons Computer Learning Centers franchise in Michigan. He paid VERY WELL. But, every December he would lay off 5% of his staff so he would go into the next year lean and mean.

And I know many many many companies that do that. That's mean. LOL.

Ever read up on Jack Walsh from GE? He fired x amount of employees every year, even though the company was doing great. But if you were a salesperson or engineer or maintenence worker or secretary, it didn't matter. If you were at the bottom of what you do, you were let go. Everyone's job performance was rated, and every year the people at the bottom were let go. If you were a janitor and you got the worst review of all janitors, you were fired at the end of the year.

I actually don't disagree with Jack Walsh. This way no one ever wants to finish at the bottom of his/her job.

But the callous companies do sometimes makes me say, "no wonder Unions came to be."

I almost said, "they shouldn't be able to", but then it's their business so they can do whatever they want. I understand that.

I'm going home. We'll talk tomorrow. Nice talking with you today.

 

[sealybobo]

Do you not see these are opposing positions?

ThomHartmann.com - How Rich is Too Rich For Democracy?

[/QUOTE]

If you go out and make $20 million, i don't want to penalize that. I'm more talking about the CEO who got $20 million from Home Depot when he retired. He didn't earn that. That money should have gone to the employees and sharholders.

Yes, i do see how parts of me are libertarian and the other parts don't like their every man for themselves approach.

And we already do what you are saying. We tax the rich more and don't tax the poor at all. You do realize that we already do that, right?

And I just think that from Reagan to Bush they took too much away from us and gave too much to the rich.


And I called you Joe the Plumber because it seemed like you were painting a perfect picture for me. Like Joe just happened to be making $250, and he just happened to be on the edge of who would get penalized if Obama won.

But I do beleive you are a business owner and you sound like a great business owner. If they were all like you, I don't think we'd be having this discussion to be honest with you.

My boss at New Horizons used to say, "you aren't going to find many companies that pay as well as we do", and he was right. 16% commission, STRAIGHT commission.

By the way, I worked there back in the 90's. They have since cut down on how much they pay too. Increased quotas, asking more and paying less. No one buying like they used to.

One of the guys I worked with back then now works here at the company I'm with now. He made over $500K a year at New Horizons. Now I make more than him. But, he's in a new department and if it takes off, he started at the ground level, so he is hoping to make it back to where he use to be. Our company just started a payroll service to compete with ADP & Paychecks.


Anyways, the economy needs to improve before we see 75% of the sales staff doing great again. Right now it's 5 people making a forture, 20 of us doing pretty well and 20 others who are struggling. Most of them are new or really not that good in sales. You know how it is. Anyways, when the economy is good again, I'll start making more money and the people who don't make as much as I do will get to where I'm at.

And $75K just doesn't seem to go as far as it used to.

 

[WillowTree]

They aren't even the biggest. Without the jobs, the flow of immigrants into this country slows to a miniscule trickle.

which won't do jack shit about the 30 or 40 million already here..

 

[catzmeow]

which won't do jack shit about the 30 or 40 million already here..

Haven't you read the news reports? As our economy tanks, they're bailing. So much for loyalty, eh?

 

[Ravi]

Why would they be loyal to a country that just demonizes them like Hitler did with the Jews? The main reason they come is to make money.

Sometimes I think the majority of Americans are idiots and you don't help dissuade me, Kitty.