Beware of the "Christian" zionist cult. . . .

[Shamgar]

Beware of the "Christian" zionist cult. . . .

Grace Halsell, who regards the movement as a cult, asks: “What is the message of the Christian Zionist? Simply stated it is this: every act taken by Israel is orchestrated by God, and should be condoned, supported, and even praised by the rest of us.' (17)

Stephen Sizer, “Christian Zionism: Road-map to Armageddon?” (Leicester: 2004), Page 21.

The Middle East Council of Churches (MECC), drawing together the historic as well as evangelical churches of the Holy Land, rejects, Christian Zionism 'as representing a heretical interpretation of Holy Scriptures',(19) while John Stott has described it as 'biblical anathema'. (20)

Stephen Sizer, “Christian Zionism: Road-map to Armageddon?” (Leicester: 2004), Page 22.

The distinction between Israel and the church and the literalist hermeneutic upon which it is based, inexorably leads to a reductionist eschatology in which Jesus is devalued, salvation and judgment redefined, and Israel sacralized.

Stephen Sizer, “Christian Zionism: Road-map to Armageddon?” (Leicester: 2004), Page 201.

He [Edward Irving (1792-1834)]insisted that missionary work especially in Southern Europe, where the Continental Society concentrated its ministry, was futile because God's judgment was about to fall on the lands of the former Roman Empire who would align themselves with the Antichrist. Some walked out of the meeting in protest while the leaders of the society accused Irving of undermining their ministry. (52)

Stephen Sizer, “Christian Zionism: Road-map to Armageddon?” (Leicester: 2004), Page 42.

[Benjamin] Newton eventually came to recognize Darby's elevation of Israel above the church as heresy, and repudiated the idea that the Jews could be blessed apart from the faith in Jesus Christ. It was 'virtually to say there are two kinds of Christianity, two Gospels, two ways, and two ends of salvation'.(96)

Stephen Sizer, Christian Zionism: Road-map to Armageddon? (Leicester: 2004) p. 53.

There is a new religious cult in America. It's not composed of so-called “crazies” so much as mainstream, middle to upper-middle class Americans. They listen-and give millions of dollars each week-to the TV evangelists who expound the fundamentals of the cult. They read Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye. They have one goal: to facilitate God's hand to waft them up to heaven free from all trouble, from where they will watch Armageddon and the destruction of Planet Earth. This doctrine pervades Assemblies of God, Pentacostal, and other charismatic churches, as well as Southern Baptist, independent Baptist and countless so-called Bible churches and mega-churches. At least one out of every 10 Americans is a devotee' of this cult. It is the fastest growing religious movement in Christianity today. - Dale Crowley Jr., religious broadcaster, Washington D.C.

Grace Halsell, “Forcing God's Hand: Why Millions Pray For A Quick Rapture - - - And Destruction Of Planet Earth” (Beltsville: 2003) Page 5.

While Calvin and Luther understood the word “Israel” in Romans 11:25 to refer to the church of Jewish and Gentile believers, as had the Roman Catholic Church, Theodore Beza and Martin Bucer preferred to apply the word to unbelieving Jews and Judaism. The various editors of the Geneva Bible, influenced both by Calvin and Beza, increasingly favoured this interpretation. In the 1557 and 1560 editions, a short note on Romans 11 defined 'Israel' as the 'nation of the Jews'. In later editions, this was amplified to suggest a future conversion of the whole nation of the Jews, though not everyone particularly, shall be joined to the church of Christ.'(4) Through the notes accompanying this translation, which became the most widely read translation in England and Scotland prior to the Authorized Version of 1611, together with the writings of Puritans such as William Perkins and Hugh Broughton, the idea of the conversion of the Jewish people spread in Britain and the American Colonies. (5)

Stephen Sizer, “Christian Zionism: Road-map to Armageddon?” (Leicester: 2004), Page 27-28.

It is clear that Jesus was often misunderstood by those who took his words too literally. John's Gospel contains several instances. For example after he had cleansed the temple and was asked by the Pharisees for a sign, Jesus replied, 'Destroy this temple and I will raise it again in three days' (John 2:19). They thought he meant their temple, but Jesus does not correct their error. In the next few chapters, Nicodemus wonders how he can enter his mother's womb again (John 3:4), the Samaritan woman believes Jesus is offering her water on tap (4:15), and the religious leaders fear Jesus is advocating cannibalism by insisting they must eat his body and drink his blood (6:51-52). It is ironic therefore, that one of the most common mistakes made by people in the Gospels, who erroneously deduced a literal interpretation when Jesus intended a spiritual one is repeated today.

Stephen Sizer, “Christian Zionism: Road-map to Armageddon?” (Leicester: 2004), Page 123.

 

[Diuretic]

Ah that's better, a bit more colour - whew I thought someone was impersonating Sham there for a while.

 

[manu1959]

if god doesn't exist why do you care?

 

[Diuretic]

if god doesn't exist why do you care?

Is that for me or Shamgar?

 

[Shamgar]

Is that for me or Shamgar?

Well since God does exist and I believe in God . . .I would say it is directed to you. . . .

The distinction between Israel and the church and the literalist hermeneutic upon which it is based, inexorably leads to a reductionist eschatology in which Jesus is devalued, salvation and judgment redefined, and Israel sacralized.

Stephen Sizer, “Christian Zionism: Road-map to Armageddon?” (Leicester: 2004), Page 201.

 

[Diuretic]

Well since God does exist and I believe in God . . .I would say it is directed to you. . . .

<snipped>QUOTE]

I think you might be right. Anyway as a process of elimination it's one down and I don't know how many to go. I'll wait for further confirmation.

 

[Shamgar]

Well since God does exist and I believe in God . . .I would say it is directed to you. . . .<snipped>QUOTE]

I think you might be right. Anyway as a process of elimination it's one down and I don't know how many to go. I'll wait for further confirmation.

Translation: Diuretic can't respond. . .point by point. . .

. . . . .go figure

Despite their intense support of Zionism, most dispensationalists did not believe it was the ultimate fulfillment of biblical prophecy concerning the restoration of Israel. The problem was that Zionism was a political and nationalistic movement, not a religious one. Zionism was a return to the Promised Land in unbelief. In 1905, Arno C. Gaebelein warned that

'Zionism is not the divinely promised restoration of Israel. . . . Zionism is not the fulfillment of the large number of predictions found in the Old Testament Scriptures, which relates to Israel's return to the land. Indeed, Zionism has very little use fo argument from the Word of God. It is rather a politcal and philothantropic undertaking. Instead of coming together before God, calling upon His name, trusting Him, that He is able to perform what He has so often promised, they speak about their riches, their influence, their Colonial Bank, and court the favor of the Sultan. The great movement is one of unbelief and confidence in themselves instead of God' eternal purposes.'(7)

On that particular point, Gaebelein and other premillennialists sounded like Orthodox Jews, who also complained about the religious indifference of most Zionists.

Timothy P. Weber, “On the Road to Armageddon: How Evangelicals Became Israel's Best Friend” (Grand Rapids: 2004) Page 101-102.

 

[Diuretic]

Now I'm hurt. I thought you were a good sport Sham.

Oh well. Gloves off in future then :bat:

 

[Shamgar]

Now I'm hurt. I thought you were a good sport Sham. Oh well. Gloves off in future then :bat:

Yeah that didn't take much to hurt someone with tiny little feelings. . . . and now you will be someone with tiny little feelings but wearing no gloves. . . .hahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaa

The implication is clear as in prewar Germany, the Jews should leave before 'God sends the hunters', the door closes and anti-Semitism increases. Jan Willem van der Hoeven is convinced
that even Jews living in the United States will eventually emigrate to Palestine and that God may use anti-Semitism to achieve it. 'I pray that even if it takes anti-Semitism in America, God may use it to get his millions back to Israel. So we must have enough room there. So if we have six million American Jews coming we cannot give up the West Bank, can we?' (53) Anti-Semitism may therefore, be tolerated or justified if it serves the higher end of persuading Jews to return to Zion.

Stephen Sizer, “Christian Zionism: Road-map to Armageddon?” (Leicester: 2004), Page 223.

[Hal] Lindsey was not the only writer to suggest that the Messiah would return in 1988. (69)
When Jesus did not return that years, however, Lindsey revised his timescale by suggesting that a biblical generation could be anything from forty to 100 years and that perhaps a Daniel's prophetic clock had started clicking not in 1948 but in 1967 when Israel captured Jerusalem. (70) Undaunted in 1998 Grant Jeffrey calculated that Daniel's last 'week' would begin in 1993, the tribualtion would occur in 1997 and the cleansing of the temple and millineum would begin in the autumn of 2000.(71) Like Lindsey, his subsequent books have been less specific. (72)

Stephen Sizer, Christian Zionism: Road-map to Armageddon? (Leicester: 2004) p. 126.


Destructive Consequences of Christian Zionism, Figure #10: 3. “Encouragement of religious intolerance and Islamaphobia.”

Stephen Sizer, “Christian Zionism: Road-map to Armageddon?” (Leicester: 2004), Page 258.

 

[Diuretic]

Yeah that didn't take much to hurt someone with tiny little feelings. . . . and now you will be someone with tiny little feelings but wearing no gloves. . . .hahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Now that was funny!

 

[Shamgar]

Now that was funny!

Shamgar = 2 . . . .. . Diuretic = 0

No problem. . .you keep pitching them and I will keep hitting them out of the park. . . . .

Walter Riggans interprets the term [Christian Zionist] in an overtly political sense as 'any Christian who supports the Zionist aim of the sovereign State of Israel, its army, government, education etc., but it can be describe a Christian who claims to support the State of Israel'. (7)

Stephen Sizer, “Christian Zionism: Road-map to Armageddon?” (Leicester: 2004), Page 21.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

Shamgar = 2 . . . .. . Diuretic = 0

No problem. . .you keep pitching them and I will keep hitting them out of the park. . . . .

Wouldn't it be more objective to have a third party keep score? I know you're free of hypocricy and are all enlightened and what not, but you're objectivity regarding debate wins seems a bit compromised.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Yep. They're B'nai Noahs. They're forgetting that eventually they will be sat down and told that all this jesus crap is Trinitarian Idolatry.

 

[Shamgar]

Yep. They're B'nai Noahs. They're forgetting that eventually they will be sat down and told that all this jesus crap is Trinitarian Idolatry.

Thanks for the rant from the Racist, Xenophobic, and Intolerant God Hater. . . . . which again proves that "tolerance" is a lie. . . .

“For many deceivers HAVE entered into the world, who do not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. This is the DECEIVER AND THE ANTICHRIST. Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.” 2 John 1:7-9

“Young ones, it is a last hour, and as you heard that the Antichrist is coming, EVEN NOW MANY ANTICHRISTS HAVE RISEN UP, from which you know that it is a last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they were of us, they would have remained with us; but they left so that it might be revealed that they all are not of us.” I John 2:18-19

“By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God; and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is THE ANTICHRIST YOU HEARD IS COMING, AND EVEN NOW IS ALREADY IN THE WORLD.” 1 John 4:2-3

“And when Silas and Timothy had come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit and testified to the Jews that Jesus is the Christ. And they resisting and blaspheming, shaking his garment, he said to them, Your blood is on your own heads. I am pure from it . From now on I will go to the nations.” Acts 18:5-6

Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. Matthew 27:25

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Thanks for the rant from the Racist, Xenophobic, and Intolerant God Hater. . . . . which again proves that "tolerance" is a lie. . . .

“For many deceivers HAVE entered into the world, who do not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. This is the DECEIVER AND THE ANTICHRIST. Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.” 2 John 1:7-9

“Young ones, it is a last hour, and as you heard that the Antichrist is coming, EVEN NOW MANY ANTICHRISTS HAVE RISEN UP, from which you know that it is a last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they were of us, they would have remained with us; but they left so that it might be revealed that they all are not of us.” I John 2:18-19

“By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God; and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is THE ANTICHRIST YOU HEARD IS COMING, AND EVEN NOW IS ALREADY IN THE WORLD.” 1 John 4:2-3

“And when Silas and Timothy had come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit and testified to the Jews that Jesus is the Christ. And they resisting and blaspheming, shaking his garment, he said to them, Your blood is on your own heads. I am pure from it . From now on I will go to the nations.” Acts 18:5-6

Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. Matthew 27:25

TESTIFY!

 

[Shamgar]

TESTIFY!

. . . . I already am. . . . .

Despite their intense support of Zionism, most dispensationalists did not believe it was the ultimate fulfillment of biblical prophecy concerning the restoration of Israel. The problem was that Zionism was a political and nationalistic movement, not a religious one. Zionism was a return to the Promised Land in unbelief. In 1905, Arno C. Gaebelein warned that

'Zionism is not the divinely promised restoration of Israel. . . . Zionism is not the fulfillment of the large number of predictions found in the Old Testament Scriptures, which relates to Israel's return to the land. Indeed, Zionism has very little use fo argument from the Word of God. It is rather a politcal and philothantropic undertaking. Instead of coming together before God, calling upon His name, trusting Him, that He is able to perform what He has so often promised, they speak about their riches, their influence, their Colonial Bank, and court the favor of the Sultan. The great movement is one of unbelief and confidence in themselves instead of God' eternal purposes.'(7)

On that particular point, Gaebelein and other premillennialists sounded like Orthodox Jews, who also complained about the religious indifference of most Zionists.

Timothy P. Weber, “On the Road to Armageddon: How Evangelicals Became Israel's Best Friend” (Grand Rapids: 2004) Page 101-102.


“The spread of a modified Pharisaism to the ends of the earth has fortunately not prevented the endurance throughout the centuries of the unchanged faith, in Rabbinic Judaism, Pharisaism became Talmudism, Talmudism became Medieval Rabbinism, and Medieval Rabbinism became Modern Rabbinism. But throughout these changes of name, inevitable adaption of custom, and adjustments of Law, the spirit of the ancient Pharisee survives unaltered. When the Jew reads his prayers, he is reciting formulae prepared by pre-Maccabean scholars; when he dons the cloak prescribed for the Day of of Atonement and Passover Eve, he is wearing the festival garment of ancient Jerusalem; when he studies the Talmud, he is actually repeating the arguments used in Palestine academies.”

The Pharisees: The Sociological Background of Their Faith by Louis Finkelstein. Provost and Solomon Schechter Professor of Theology at the Jewish Theological Seminary of America. Volume #1. Philadelphia, The Jewish Publication Society of America, 1938. Pages xx-xxi.

Conversely, the follower of the prophet gave way to the Hasid, and the latter was succeeded by the Pharisee. When Pharisaism became practically synonymous with Judaism, the divisive forces made themselves felt within it, and there arose the two factions of Shammaites and Hillelites to struggle for the control of the party.

The Pharisees: The Sociological Background of Their Faith by Louis Finkelstein. Provost and Solomon Schechter Professor of Theology at the Jewish Theological Seminary of America. Volume #1. Philadelphia, The Jewish Publication Society of America, 1938. Page 3.

 

[Shamgar]

. . .more about the cult. . . .

Arno C. Gaebelein took a trip to his native Germany in 1937. He described his impressions in a letter to William Bell Riley, who published it in the Pilot. Gaebelein condemned most American press reports about the “new Germany” as slanderous and erroneous. It was obvious to him that Hitler had been taking necessary steps to stop the spread of Jewish-inspired Bolshevism. There is no question in my mind that Hitler was an instrument of God to save Germany and Europe from the Red Beast.”(32)

Timothy P. Weber, “On the Road to Armageddon: How Evangelicals Became Israel's Best Friend” (Grand Rapids: 2004) Page 143.

While he [James M. Gray of Moody Bible Institute] never took back his claim that the Protocols [Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion] was “a clinching argument for premillennialism,” he suggested that the Bible alone contained everything the Christians needed to know about Jews and their end-time actvities. “Therefore, in the present state of the public mind on this question, my advice to Christians would be this: Let us confine ourselves to the Bible and leave the Protocols alone.”(43)

Timothy P. Weber, “On the Road to Armageddon: How Evangelicals Became Israel's Best Friend” (Grand Rapids: 2004) Page 138.


Another major dispensationalist figure who promoted the Protocols [Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion] in the 30s was William Bell Riley, the Baptist leader from Minnesota. He first came across the Protocols in the 1920s and rejected it as fanciful and far-fetched. But a few years later he read it again and was struck by how accurately it explained what was happening all over the world.(24) In 1934 Riley [William Bell Riley] published The Protocols and Communism, in which he argued that the same plot that had turned Russia communist was now at work in FDR's New Deal. “Today in our land many of the biggest trusts, banks, and manufacturing interests are controled by Jews . . . Most of our department stores they own. . . The motion pictures, the most vicious of all immoral, educational and communistic influences, is their creation.”(25) Vistors to Riley's First Baptist Church in Minneapolis got a steady dose of similar sentiments from the puplit, so much that Jewish leaders identified the church as one of the most important sources of anti-Semitism in the Twin Cities.(26)

Timothy P. Weber, “On the Road to Armageddon: How Evangelicals Became Israel's Best Friend” (Grand Rapids: 2004) Page 136.

Gaebelein [Arno C. Gaebelein] believed that Jews were still under a “national blood-guiltiness” for killing Christ, a stigma that could not be wiped away until the second coming and the Jews' repentance for it.(21) Even then, more Jews would be lost than saved. He held out the most hope for the Orthodox. During the great tribulation, after the church had been raptured, “the orthodox Jews who have held on to the faithof their fathers, who pray for the coming of the Messiah King, whose eyes are [now] blinded that they cannot see, from the veil will be removed.” They are the prophesied remnant that international Jews, the political-financial schemers, the lawless elements, who ridicule and hate religion of any kind and are atheists . . . these Jews will worship the beast. They reject the true Christ and accept the false Messiah.”(22) They are doomed, and rightly so.(23)

Timothy P. Weber, “On the Road to Armageddon: How Evangelicals Became Israel's Best Friend” (Grand Rapids: 2004) Page 136.

 

[Avatar4321]

The return to Israel is just the beginning of the prophecied gathering of Israel. Judah will likely for the most part remain in unbelief until the prophecy is fulfilled and Christ comes splitting the Mount of Olives twain. Then they will ask what the marks in His hands and feet are and He will respond 'Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.' (Zech 13:6)

Tell me do you think Israel could be gathered one iota if God wanted otherwise?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

The return to Israel is just the beginning of the prophecied gathering of Israel. Judah will likely for the most part remain in unbelief until the prophecy is fulfilled and Christ comes splitting the Mount of Olives twain. Then they will ask what the marks in His hands and feet are and He will respond 'Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.' (Zech 13:6)

Tell me do you think Israel could be gathered one iota if God wanted otherwise?

God allows all kinds of diseases and plagues.

 

[Diuretic]

God allows all kinds of diseases and plagues.

And humankind finds the cures.