Better Applications for Solar and Wind.

[flacaltenn]

The sketchy unreliable performance of wind and solar as Grid Energy Sources could be overcome by applying to applications that made more sense.

Trying to manage and plan backups on the grid for these renewables has proven to be costly and inefficient.

The Thread "1st Priority" http://www.usmessageboard.com/856374-post1.html

-- got me thinking about HOW they could be put to uses that were NOT time critical but truly solved some energy intensive problems.

In that thread the poster suggested Desalinization Plants as an application for renewables.

Any time you can identify an energy intensive -- non-grid-tied application that does NOT require CONSTANT 24/7/365 power and where the product is STORED (like fresh water)
that's a technological winner!

Right now, wind and solar would NOT play a huge roll in developing an Electric Vehicle fleet because of their spikey delivery of power. But Fuel Cells are a mature technology and the PROMISE of running them cleanly on Hydrogen COULD BE MET -- if the Hydrogen factories were powered from wind and solar. Right now -- fuel cells suffer from a bait and switch problem where they are played up as cleanly running on hydrogen and producing only water vapor as a by-product. But in reality -- most large fuels are running on NAT GAS -- a fossil fuel and there is not a source of hydrogen for general transportation because of the price of electricity to produce it.

Put the hydrogen factories in locations OPTIMUM for using local wind or local solar or both. And suddenly -- we got an option for transportation energy.

Same opportunity for water system pumps. LARGE urban useage of power required to move clean water around. THIS -- as an isolated system might even work in less than ideal locations with adequate excess generation capacity built in.

Any other NON-GRID ideas that would provide a large chunk of power? I'm pondering writing an article... Give ya full credit..

 

[whitehall]

Fresh water is stored in ponds and buckets. Solar power is stored in heavy batteries made from extremely toxic chemicals and a manufacturing process that uses lots of energy and produces toxic by-products that sometimes find their way into the environment. That's a technological nightmare that warmers choose to ignore.

 

[flacaltenn]

Fresh water is stored in ponds and buckets. Solar power is stored in heavy batteries made from extremely toxic chemicals and a manufacturing process that uses lots of energy and produces toxic by-products that sometimes find their way into the environment. That's a technological nightmare that warmers choose to ignore.

The trick is to find applications where the RATE of production can be variable. So that on good wind day -- you're producing twice "normal".

Besides desalinization, urban water storage and hydrogen production ((where the product is stored and the delivery rate is buffered)) -- you might find that biofuel production, algae fuels could be made feasible by lowering recurring energy costs.

THe battery wastestream would be incredible if EVERYONE chose to store it. Just having a couple million EV is an enviro nightmare. Hazmat response to EV crashes is not over-exaggerated.

 

[whitehall]

"The trick is to find". "If only". "Maybe someday". "Scientists imagine". How many more cliches do we need to hear while we are mortgaging our grandkids future to oil producing countries?

 

[tjvh]

Isn't it convenient that all those who profess the need for more solar, and wind turbine energy sources seem always to forget the Environmental disaster unfolding in China from the byproducts of the construction of these wind turbines, and Solar panels... I find it decidedly inconvenient that they ignore the pollution problem simply because it is not in their back yards.

 

[Ernie S.]

The sketchy unreliable performance of wind and solar as Grid Energy Sources could be overcome by applying to applications that made more sense.

Trying to manage and plan backups on the grid for these renewables has proven to be costly and inefficient.

The Thread "1st Priority" http://www.usmessageboard.com/856374-post1.html

-- got me thinking about HOW they could be put to uses that were NOT time critical but truly solved some energy intensive problems.

In that thread the poster suggested Desalinization Plants as an application for renewables.

Any time you can identify an energy intensive -- non-grid-tied application that does NOT require CONSTANT 24/7/365 power and where the product is STORED (like fresh water)
that's a technological winner!

Right now, wind and solar would NOT play a huge roll in developing an Electric Vehicle fleet because of their spikey delivery of power. But Fuel Cells are a mature technology and the PROMISE of running them cleanly on Hydrogen COULD BE MET -- if the Hydrogen factories were powered from wind and solar. Right now -- fuel cells suffer from a bait and switch problem where they are played up as cleanly running on hydrogen and producing only water vapor as a by-product. But in reality -- most large fuels are running on NAT GAS -- a fossil fuel and there is not a source of hydrogen for general transportation because of the price of electricity to produce it.

Put the hydrogen factories in locations OPTIMUM for using local wind or local solar or both. And suddenly -- we got an option for transportation energy.

Same opportunity for water system pumps. LARGE urban useage of power required to move clean water around. THIS -- as an isolated system might even work in less than ideal locations with adequate excess generation capacity built in.

Any other NON-GRID ideas that would provide a large chunk of power? I'm pondering writing an article... Give ya full credit..

How about low yield unused oil wells where it doesn't pay to run the pumps off the grid? I think solar and/or wind could be useful for systems that are not schedule or time sensitive.
Pumping irrigation water to holding tanks, perhaps

 

[Samson]

I want China to Go Solar First.

 

[waltky]

Net Zero Electric housing project...

The winning number is zero at this housing site
Saturday, Aug. 18, 2012 - 'If the electricity generated is more than what they need, it goes back to the grid'

Kevin Smith means it when he says he's "seen the home of the future." To the 43-year-old Davis resident and project manager for Northwest Land Park LLC, the home of the future is "net zero electric," which means each unit will generate as much electricity as it uses. That's what Smith wants to achieve for a new 825-unit housing development backed by Ranch Capital, a San Diego investment company. The 32-acre site, south of Broadway and west of Fifth Street, is currently the home of a Setzer Forest Products factory and some old warehouses. "We really see this as an energy-efficient and technology-driven opportunity to have the home of the future in the middle of town," Smith said. For now, he is starting small – conducting a test run of six homes to see if there's appetite for his vision in a depressed market. Situated on a sleepy corner at Third and V streets in the Southside Park neighborhood, the new homes will have solar panels, LED lights and special insulation. The first homes will be available in September. "If the electricity generated is more than what they need, it goes back to the grid," said Michael Zannakis, senior product services coordinator for the Sacramento Municipal Utility District.

The homes are a triple-win, Zannakis said, explaining that when a house is energy-efficient, the customer pays less and SMUD doesn't need to buy extra electricity off the market, not to mention the environmental benefits. The homes' special insulated walls are rated R42 – the R stands for resistance to the flow of heat. In comparison, the walls in conventional homes are rated anywhere from R12 to R14. Additionally, Smith points out that the pre-installed LED lights consume 154 watts total, as opposed to a single incandescent light that uses 75 watts. The savings, both in energy and in money, he said, are substantial. Planning a net zero community, however, is not without obstacles. Experts say such developments are expensive to design and hard to measure in success. UC Davis West Village, billed as the nation's "largest planned zero net energy community," is a prime example of the difficulties facing developers and researchers alike. The housing development for students and faculty opened last September, but researchers don't know whether the net zero energy goals are being achieved. "It's very doubtful that we will have a complete assessment of the project in the next year," said UC Davis Energy Institute associate director Jerry Braun, who was closely involved in the research and design for West Village.

Braun cited several problems with measuring the success of these developments, including funding and data collection. Another issue: Researchers can't control how people behave. "Some use more energy than others even though they're living in identical buildings," he said. Even in the tough economy, Smith said he thinks there's a market for his urban homes and that his prices – in the high $200,000s for a single-family house – are competitive. "A demographic change is happening," he said. "Most of the new households are going to be young people without children, so you don't need the big yard and swing set." The wave of environmental consciousness among millennials is crucial to his success, Smith added, along with $4 gas and the desire to stay closer to the center of town. "There's a loss (in) quality of life when you spend your mornings sitting on (Highway) 99, inching your way to work."

Last August, the city gave the green light for the 825-unit development, which will include duplexes and single-family homes. If everything goes well at the test site, Smith said he could start construction on the larger project as soon as next year. Sacramento Assistant City Manager John Dangberg said there's "definitely a market for urban houses," noting that the development was consistent with the city's general plan for new infill housing. "You need to go back through the existing fabric of the city to renew and modernize," Dangberg said. Smith said he isn't afraid of the recession, but noted it may take seven years before the entire project is completed, depending on market conditions. "Knock on wood, history has shown that economic downturns don't last forever."

Read more here: The winning number is zero at this housing site - Real Estate - The Sacramento Bee

 

[flacaltenn]

Yeah -- that's like the cities that claim they are "powered by the wind". Let's disconnect them from the grid and see what happens eh? This net zero housing development is gonna be awfully dark and cold at night. But it's not THEIR concern where the electricity comes from is it? They are in the Energy Business and They will make a profit (after 12 years of finance payments and if the cost of repairing the roof doesn't bankrupt them).

 

[Old Rocks]

I want China to Go Solar First.

Well yes, you are stupid enough to wish for that. And when China makes to breakthrough on really efficient solar, we can all buy the panels from them rather than invernting them here and manufacturing them in America.

30-MW and 20-MW Solar Power Projects for China (in Xinjiang Region) - CleanTechnica

As just noted the other day, China has upped its solar power goals again. Here’s one big solar power project that will help it get to its new goal of 21 GW of solar by 2015:

“The government of Bole city, Bortala Mongol Autonomous Prefecture, Xinjiang, China recently signed an agreement with Hubei-based JCS Solar for a 6 billion yuan (US$948 million) photovoltaic project to be located next to the area’s Sayram Lake,” Liu Yuanyuan writes. “Construction of the 13 million square-meter facility is expected to take three years. Phase I of the project is expected to yield 30-MW of capacity and connect to the grid when completed by the end of October 2012.”

Clean Technica (30-MW and 20-MW Solar Power Projects for China (in Xinjiang Region) - CleanTechnica)

 

[Old Rocks]

Yeah -- that's like the cities that claim they are "powered by the wind". Let's disconnect them from the grid and see what happens eh? This net zero housing development is gonna be awfully dark and cold at night. But it's not THEIR concern where the electricity comes from is it? They are in the Energy Business and They will make a profit (after 12 years of finance payments and if the cost of repairing the roof doesn't bankrupt them).

Ah yes, if grandpa didn't do it, it ain't worth a damn. But who cares. People like you are the past, the smart ones are building a future.

 

[flacaltenn]

Yeah -- that's like the cities that claim they are "powered by the wind". Let's disconnect them from the grid and see what happens eh? This net zero housing development is gonna be awfully dark and cold at night. But it's not THEIR concern where the electricity comes from is it? They are in the Energy Business and They will make a profit (after 12 years of finance payments and if the cost of repairing the roof doesn't bankrupt them).

Ah yes, if grandpa didn't do it, it ain't worth a damn. But who cares. People like you are the past, the smart ones are building a future.

Actually I'm building a future. One that works correctly and efficiently.. People like you can fantasize all you want -- but fantasy ain't worth a listing on the NYSE -- is it?

 

[gallantwarrior]

I can speak for my own experience.
Right now, we are experimenting with solar panels. They are quite adequate for low-power demand installations. There are many, many modern appliances that will not run long-term on solar systems. You have to have back up power. I use propane. My refrigerator, my stand-by heater, and the summer stove are all powered with propane. Of course, the solar panels operate best under specific weather conditions, so we have a gas-powered generator to charge batteries when weather conditions are not optimal. The cabin is wired for 12VDC, lights are LED, augmented with propane lanterns in winter. We also use a wood stove for cooking and heating.
We have a hand-powered washer and dry clothes on lines outside in the summer, inside in the winter. The toilet is a composting model, we have a 12VDC fan to help keep it dry in winter. Water is pumped using a 12V system and we use an RV-style, on-demand, propane-heated hot water heater.
If you want to live "green", you have to give up a lot of amenities. Cutting wood to heat all winter is a bit of a chore...OK, that was somewhat understated. Wind and solar work very well for small installations, but I cannot see lighting up Manhattan using solar cells...really.

 

[flacaltenn]

I can speak for my own experience.
Right now, we are experimenting with solar panels. They are quite adequate for low-power demand installations. There are many, many modern appliances that will not run long-term on solar systems. You have to have back up power. I use propane. My refrigerator, my stand-by heater, and the summer stove are all powered with propane. Of course, the solar panels operate best under specific weather conditions, so we have a gas-powered generator to charge batteries when weather conditions are not optimal. The cabin is wired for 12VDC, lights are LED, augmented with propane lanterns in winter. We also use a wood stove for cooking and heating.
We have a hand-powered washer and dry clothes on lines outside in the summer, inside in the winter. The toilet is a composting model, we have a 12VDC fan to help keep it dry in winter. Water is pumped using a 12V system and we use an RV-style, on-demand, propane-heated hot water heater.
If you want to live "green", you have to give up a lot of amenities. Cutting wood to heat all winter is a bit of a chore...OK, that was somewhat understated. Wind and solar work very well for small installations, but I cannot see lighting up Manhattan using solar cells...really.

Manhattan really should scale back a lot -- shouldn't they? Let's start with all those elevators and ban Broadway shows after 6PM. Bloomberg would be your man..

It's good to make proper use of technology. And in this case -- it sounds like you're off the grid and NEED to get creative. I'd love to live that way for a week at a time..

 

[Old Rocks]

You people are really hopeless Not a single person here advocating alternative energies has stated that we should go only solar or wind. Not a single person advocating the position of non-polluting energy production has advocated the position of only solar and wind. Just you neener-neener's have thrown out that silly arguement.

Yes, the alternative energy production in China is dirty, just as every thing else they produce is dirty, because they have no environmental laws. We produce solar panels here in the states, both silicon and thin film, without the pollution. Of course, it is you 'Conservatives' that would change that, with your anti-environmental law stance.

As the solar panels become both more efficient and cheaper, there will come a time that it will make economic sense to have all the warehouse roofs and south facing walls in cities paneled. The grid is already there, and that is where the major use is at.

Of course there will be technical problems, there always are when you make major improvements. That is how engineers and scientists earn the keep.

 

[there4eyeM]

Realistic energy expectations first.

 

[gallantwarrior]

I can speak for my own experience.
Right now, we are experimenting with solar panels. They are quite adequate for low-power demand installations. There are many, many modern appliances that will not run long-term on solar systems. You have to have back up power. I use propane. My refrigerator, my stand-by heater, and the summer stove are all powered with propane. Of course, the solar panels operate best under specific weather conditions, so we have a gas-powered generator to charge batteries when weather conditions are not optimal. The cabin is wired for 12VDC, lights are LED, augmented with propane lanterns in winter. We also use a wood stove for cooking and heating.
We have a hand-powered washer and dry clothes on lines outside in the summer, inside in the winter. The toilet is a composting model, we have a 12VDC fan to help keep it dry in winter. Water is pumped using a 12V system and we use an RV-style, on-demand, propane-heated hot water heater.
If you want to live "green", you have to give up a lot of amenities. Cutting wood to heat all winter is a bit of a chore...OK, that was somewhat understated. Wind and solar work very well for small installations, but I cannot see lighting up Manhattan using solar cells...really.

Manhattan really should scale back a lot -- shouldn't they? Let's start with all those elevators and ban Broadway shows after 6PM. Bloomberg would be your man..

It's good to make proper use of technology. And in this case -- it sounds like you're off the grid and NEED to get creative. I'd love to live that way for a week at a time..

I don't advocate everybody give up all their amenities. It should be a choice. Personally, I could live in a place like NYC only under duress. I like my clean, relatively quiet lifestyle. I have bought into and accept the fact that I have to work to make myself comfortable. It's pretty surprising what you can do without when you have to personally make things happen. Yes, I am off grid. I actually had the power company come out and give me an estimate for running power to my place. They quoted me $90,000. Hell, for that kind of money, I can install a top-of-the-line wind-solar system that would power an entire village. Oh, and I wouldn't have to pay monthly fees for the privilege of having "modern" power. Wind and solar work well on a small scale. A cabin or a small village. But on a scale necessary to sustain larger communities, I don't see it as a viable alternative at this point.

 

[flacaltenn]

I can speak for my own experience.
Right now, we are experimenting with solar panels. They are quite adequate for low-power demand installations. There are many, many modern appliances that will not run long-term on solar systems. You have to have back up power. I use propane. My refrigerator, my stand-by heater, and the summer stove are all powered with propane. Of course, the solar panels operate best under specific weather conditions, so we have a gas-powered generator to charge batteries when weather conditions are not optimal. The cabin is wired for 12VDC, lights are LED, augmented with propane lanterns in winter. We also use a wood stove for cooking and heating.
We have a hand-powered washer and dry clothes on lines outside in the summer, inside in the winter. The toilet is a composting model, we have a 12VDC fan to help keep it dry in winter. Water is pumped using a 12V system and we use an RV-style, on-demand, propane-heated hot water heater.
If you want to live "green", you have to give up a lot of amenities. Cutting wood to heat all winter is a bit of a chore...OK, that was somewhat understated. Wind and solar work very well for small installations, but I cannot see lighting up Manhattan using solar cells...really.

Manhattan really should scale back a lot -- shouldn't they? Let's start with all those elevators and ban Broadway shows after 6PM. Bloomberg would be your man..

It's good to make proper use of technology. And in this case -- it sounds like you're off the grid and NEED to get creative. I'd love to live that way for a week at a time..

I don't advocate everybody give up all their amenities. It should be a choice. Personally, I could live in a place like NYC only under duress. I like my clean, relatively quiet lifestyle. I have bought into and accept the fact that I have to work to make myself comfortable. It's pretty surprising what you can do without when you have to personally make things happen. Yes, I am off grid. I actually had the power company come out and give me an estimate for running power to my place. They quoted me $90,000. Hell, for that kind of money, I can install a top-of-the-line wind-solar system that would power an entire village. Oh, and I wouldn't have to pay monthly fees for the privilege of having "modern" power. Wind and solar work well on a small scale. A cabin or a small village. But on a scale necessary to sustain larger communities, I don't see it as a viable alternative at this point.

Just curious -- how much do you have to monitor the batteries? Are you making decisions before you go to sleep at night as to whether to switch over? Could you leave for a couple days without emptying the fridge or freezing up the water lines?

 

[gallantwarrior]

Manhattan really should scale back a lot -- shouldn't they? Let's start with all those elevators and ban Broadway shows after 6PM. Bloomberg would be your man..

It's good to make proper use of technology. And in this case -- it sounds like you're off the grid and NEED to get creative. I'd love to live that way for a week at a time..

I don't advocate everybody give up all their amenities. It should be a choice. Personally, I could live in a place like NYC only under duress. I like my clean, relatively quiet lifestyle. I have bought into and accept the fact that I have to work to make myself comfortable. It's pretty surprising what you can do without when you have to personally make things happen. Yes, I am off grid. I actually had the power company come out and give me an estimate for running power to my place. They quoted me $90,000. Hell, for that kind of money, I can install a top-of-the-line wind-solar system that would power an entire village. Oh, and I wouldn't have to pay monthly fees for the privilege of having "modern" power. Wind and solar work well on a small scale. A cabin or a small village. But on a scale necessary to sustain larger communities, I don't see it as a viable alternative at this point.

Just curious -- how much do you have to monitor the batteries? Are you making decisions before you go to sleep at night as to whether to switch over? Could you leave for a couple days without emptying the fridge or freezing up the water lines?

My partner is an absolute fanatic, he runs over with the Ohmmeter dozens of times a day. He's like that, drives me nuts. We cannot afford the official solar power batteries but have discovered that 6V golf cart batteries work well. I guess it helps that both of us deal with and understand battery systems enough to be able to wire a battery bank for maximum output. The fridge is an electric-propane hybrid and switches automatically if electric power becomes insufficient, so yes, we can leave without emptying the fridge, if needed. We also have a propane stove backup for the woodburner. It allows us to set the thermostat somewhere above freezing and keep the place at least that warm, if we have to go for a few hours more than the wood burning stove heats the place. We don't have a well yet, so we tanker in water. We have a 125 gal tank inside the house and manage to keep it from freezing. Hot water is on-demand and works well. The "facilities" are furnished using a Sunmar composting toilet, which works well as long as it doesn't freeze. Of course, we live in a 3 br, 900 sf cabin. You have to keep the house small for things to work well. The place is comfy and quite livable, it just isn't up to the palatial standards most Americans feel is their birthright.

 

[waltky]

Granny says if we moved there she could hula-hula inna grass skirt...

Tiny Island Chain Becomes World's First Solar-Powered Territory
November 07, 2012 - The Atafu atoll is one of three atolls that compromise the territory of Tokelau in the South Pacific.

The remote islands of Tokelau have become the first territory in the world to be powered by the sun, officials say. The move is expected to save money and ease the environmental burden of relying on imported fossil fuels. “The Tokelau Renewable Energy Project is a world first. Tokelau’s three main atolls now have enough solar capacity, on average, to meet electricity needs,” said New Zealand’s foreign affairs minister Murray McCully in a statement. “Until now, Tokelau has been 100 percent dependent upon diesel for electricity generation, with heavy economic and environmental costs.”

The group of islands situated in the South Pacific between New Zealand and Hawaii are administered by New Zealand, which estimated the cost of the project to build three solar grids at around $7 million. It is estimated that oil imports account for up to 30 percent of national income in some isolated parts of the Pacific, and the move to solar power could save Tokelau about $1 million per year.

Tokelau is comprised of three atolls Atafu, Nukunonu and Fakaofo, and has about 1,500 inhabitants. The island nations of Samoa and Tuvalu are aiming to get all of their electricity from renewable sources by 2020. The Cook Islands plans to start converting to solar panels and wind turbines, while most houses in the South Pacific archipelago will begin to use solar water heaters.

East Timor's government has promised that no households in the capital, Dili, would be using firewood for cooking by 2015 and said 50 percent of the country's electricity would be from renewable sources by the end of the decade. “Building on the success of clean and affordable energy solutions for Tokelau, Tonga, and the Cook Islands, New Zealand will co-host a Pacific energy summit in March next year,” said McCully.

Tiny Island Chain Becomes World's First Solar-Powered Territory