Ben Stein Stumps Richard Dawkins.

[PostmodernProph]

The fireman does not enter the burning building under the assumption that his losing his life in the fire will save the child, whereas the guilty person knows an innocent will be punished in their place when they agree to it.

Come on, be honest and admit that the price of Christian salvation is moral bankruptcy.

???....can you see the error in your reasoning?.......you've made a mismash of the roles in the two stories.....instead of seeing us as the child in the burning building you're trying to turn us into the fire that killed the fireman......we didn't "agree" to anything before Jesus went to the cross, just as the child did not agree to go into a burning building and wait for a fireman to come along......

 

[PostmodernProph]

Again ... what he says doesn't mirror the teachings of Christ.

1) Christ, Himself, was of the tribe of Judah.
2) His disciples were of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin.
3) Many Jews believed on Him and were saved.
4) Christ never advocated concentration camps or the killing of anyone who opposed Him.

Jim Jones of Guyana mimicked some of the words of the Bible and claimed to be a Christian then ordered a massive, group suicide. Not something Christ would have even considered. So just because someone pays lip service to a belief doesn't mean that he's an adherent of that belief system -- not in real terms.

Darwinism, on the other hand, advocates "survival of the fittest" and preaches that species are always evolving to a higher state of being. Hitler's practical application of Darwinism was revealed and shown in his methods and tells the real story.

So now suddenly Jesus and God are not one and the same!

Num 31: 7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.
9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.
10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.
11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.
12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.
13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.
14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.
15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

when a judge sentences a person found guilty of a capital crime, does society consider the judge to be a murderer?.......

Deflection!

not at all......you desire to paint God as immoral.......when a court administers justice, do you consider the court immoral?......

 

[Hollie]

The fireman does not enter the burning building under the assumption that his losing his life in the fire will save the child, whereas the guilty person knows an innocent will be punished in their place when they agree to it.

Come on, be honest and admit that the price of Christian salvation is moral bankruptcy.

???....can you see the error in your reasoning?.......you've made a mismash of the roles in the two stories.....instead of seeing us as the child in the burning building you're trying to turn us into the fire that killed the fireman......we didn't "agree" to anything before Jesus went to the cross, just as the child did not agree to go into a burning building and wait for a fireman to come along......

Error in reasoning?

Your really silly attempts at analogy between the Jesus and fireman is beyond absurd.

The Jesus and a plumber would be more appropriate.

 

[PostmodernProph]

The fact that you assumed the Big Crunch was a joke is testament to your ignorance on the subject.
Thank you.

obviously it could be nothing more than a previous Big Bang, so again, what caused that one.....

The Big Bang is the expansion phase in the cycle of the universe of energy, and the Big Crunch is the compression phase. Gravity is the engine.

I'll be honest, I've not paid that much attention to the New Age religions.....they lack cohesion.......obviously then your "Big Crunch" is pre-Big Bang but post Time Origination......you've said energy created matter at the Big Bang.......what was gravity crunching and what generated gravity......generally speaking, gravity is a product of large masses of matter, which hadn't been created yet......

 

[Steven_R]

So now suddenly Jesus and God are not one and the same!

Num 31: 7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.
9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.
10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.
11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.
12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.
13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.
14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.
15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

when a judge sentences a person found guilty of a capital crime, does society consider the judge to be a murderer?.......

Deflection!

not at all......you desire to paint God as immoral.......when a court administers justice, do you consider the court immoral?......

I don't know. Does the court do stuff like convince Pharaoh to let His People go only to turn around and harden Pharaoh's heart and then use that as justification to kill all the Egyptian first born? Does the court make a bet with another court and destroy a man's life (killing ALL his children in the process by the way) just to see if Job breaks mentally? Does the court tell the Jews to kill every man, woman, and child living in Canaan?

 

[Hollie]

So now suddenly Jesus and God are not one and the same!

Num 31: 7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.
9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.
10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.
11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.
12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.
13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.
14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.
15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

when a judge sentences a person found guilty of a capital crime, does society consider the judge to be a murderer?.......

Deflection!

not at all......you desire to paint God as immoral.......when a court administers justice, do you consider the court immoral?......

Do you consider the court system to be an agent of supernaturalism?

 

[Hollie]

obviously it could be nothing more than a previous Big Bang, so again, what caused that one.....

The Big Bang is the expansion phase in the cycle of the universe of energy, and the Big Crunch is the compression phase. Gravity is the engine.

so before you argued that time was the causal factor, now you say its gravity....okay then......since gravity triggered the Big Bang, where did gravity come from......by the way, since gravity results from proximity to large masses of matter, and you've argued that matter did not yet exist, do you sense a problem?.......

Gravity is not a function of large masses of matter. Gravity is a force even among small masses. This type of error is the danger you encounter when your science comes from Harun Yahya.

 

[PostmodernProph]

Tell me, what is the difference between your assertion of supernatural entities and a certifiably insane person's claim that he is Napoleon?

well that's quite simple Hollie....you can prove I'm not Napoleon....and you wouldn't look like a fool if you claimed you could....

 

[PostmodernProph]

There is no greater mass murderer in all of fictional literature than the OT gods. They murder relentlessly. The men who wrote the bibles (actually, the OT is Hebrew scripture co-opted by Christianity), even begin the opening chapters with the gods telling a lie.

oh heavens, Hollie......everyone can come up with a number of people who caused mass deaths without even trying.....Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Ghengis Khan.....

and none of them have any greater claim to moral authority than force.....

obviously if we believe in a creating deity, we believe in his moral authority to do with the creation that which he deems appropriate......even an atheist would have to admit that is logically consistent......

 

[PostmodernProph]

The fireman does not enter the burning building under the assumption that his losing his life in the fire will save the child, whereas the guilty person knows an innocent will be punished in their place when they agree to it.

Come on, be honest and admit that the price of Christian salvation is moral bankruptcy.

???....can you see the error in your reasoning?.......you've made a mismash of the roles in the two stories.....instead of seeing us as the child in the burning building you're trying to turn us into the fire that killed the fireman......we didn't "agree" to anything before Jesus went to the cross, just as the child did not agree to go into a burning building and wait for a fireman to come along......

Error in reasoning?

Your really silly attempts at analogy between the Jesus and fireman is beyond absurd.

The Jesus and a plumber would be more appropriate.

as before Hollie.....if you don't have the ability to play the game, don't sit in the bleachers and throw your paper cups onto the field......

 

[Hollie]

Tell me, what is the difference between your assertion of supernatural entities and a certifiably insane person's claim that he is Napoleon?

well that's quite simple Hollie....you can prove I'm not Napoleon....and you wouldn't look like a fool if you claimed you could....

That was nonsensical.

Your claims to gods are no more valid than the insane persons claim to be Napoleon.

You seem to be a bit more conscious when you're given user-friendly monosyllables.

 

[PostmodernProph]

Deflection!

not at all......you desire to paint God as immoral.......when a court administers justice, do you consider the court immoral?......

I don't know. Does the court do stuff like convince Pharaoh to let His People go only to turn around and harden Pharaoh's heart and then use that as justification to kill all the Egyptian first born? Does the court make a bet with another court and destroy a man's life (killing ALL his children in the process by the way) just to see if Job breaks mentally? Does the court tell the Jews to kill every man, woman, and child living in Canaan?

a court with absolute authority and omniscience yes......by the way, God did not tell the Jews to kill every man, woman and child living in Canaan.....he told them to eliminate one tribe which had been practicing a form of idolatry to the god Molech.....in which they took their first born child and placed it in the arms of a metal idol in which had been heated red hot in a fire....we even have a word in English which commemorates that practice....immolation.....(it was the precursor of abortion).......

 

[thanatos144]

Deflection!

not at all......you desire to paint God as immoral.......when a court administers justice, do you consider the court immoral?......

I don't know. Does the court do stuff like convince Pharaoh to let His People go only to turn around and harden Pharaoh's heart and then use that as justification to kill all the Egyptian first born? Does the court make a bet with another court and destroy a man's life (killing ALL his children in the process by the way) just to see if Job breaks mentally? Does the court tell the Jews to kill every man, woman, and child living in Canaan?

Freewill. God didn't cause the Pharaoh to go to his death.

 

[Hollie]

???....can you see the error in your reasoning?.......you've made a mismash of the roles in the two stories.....instead of seeing us as the child in the burning building you're trying to turn us into the fire that killed the fireman......we didn't "agree" to anything before Jesus went to the cross, just as the child did not agree to go into a burning building and wait for a fireman to come along......

Error in reasoning?

Your really silly attempts at analogy between the Jesus and fireman is beyond absurd.

The Jesus and a plumber would be more appropriate.

as before Hollie.....if you don't have the ability to play the game, don't sit in the bleachers and throw your paper cups onto the field......

I'm trying to help you understand that analogies attempting to connect supernatural entities and rational reality will always fail.

 

[PostmodernProph]

The Big Bang is the expansion phase in the cycle of the universe of energy, and the Big Crunch is the compression phase. Gravity is the engine.

so before you argued that time was the causal factor, now you say its gravity....okay then......since gravity triggered the Big Bang, where did gravity come from......by the way, since gravity results from proximity to large masses of matter, and you've argued that matter did not yet exist, do you sense a problem?.......

Gravity is not a function of large masses of matter. Gravity is a force even among small masses. This type of error is the danger you encounter when your science comes from Harun Yahya.

so the pea under your mattress crunched energy?.....

 

[PostmodernProph]

Tell me, what is the difference between your assertion of supernatural entities and a certifiably insane person's claim that he is Napoleon?

well that's quite simple Hollie....you can prove I'm not Napoleon....and you wouldn't look like a fool if you claimed you could....

That was nonsensical.

Your claims to gods are no more valid than the insane persons claim to be Napoleon.

You seem to be a bit more conscious when you're given user-friendly monosyllables.

so you CAN'T prove I'm not Napoleon?....

 

[PostmodernProph]

Error in reasoning?

Your really silly attempts at analogy between the Jesus and fireman is beyond absurd.

The Jesus and a plumber would be more appropriate.

as before Hollie.....if you don't have the ability to play the game, don't sit in the bleachers and throw your paper cups onto the field......

I'm trying to help you understand that analogies attempting to connect supernatural entities and rational reality will always fail.

well played.....your assertion that I failed is so compelling an argument.....

 

[DriftingSand]

So now suddenly Jesus and God are not one and the same!

Num 31: 7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.
9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.
10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.
11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.
12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.
13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.
14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.
15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Jesus Christ is God in the flesh. Note the two-part name - Jesus (flesh man) - Christ (God). Prior to the virgin birth there was no "Jesus" but there was "Christ" Who is God. Just wanted to make that point clear.

Now, you've posted verses having to do with the Israelites' life under the Old Covenant - the Mosaic Covenant. The Old Covenant (law before Christ's sacrifice - or grace) was a "shadow of things to come" (Hebrews 10). It's true that the Israelites were to collectively annihilate evil from their midst and God often sent them off to fight against the pagans in neighboring lands.

However, as is often the case, the written Word of God can be seen on more than one level. If we look at much of the Old Testament from an allegorical perspective we can see "Israel" as an individual who's been called to "repent" (or do away) with his sin. So the enemies (sins) of Israel can be seen as the pagans they were to annihilate (repent of). It's that greater, spiritual message that I see when reading the Old Testament. That's not to say that the various wars didn't happen on a literal level.

One last point. Jesus Christ is currently exercising great patience. But a time is coming when He will return to cleanse this earth of all evil. So even our kind, loving, and merciful Savior will exercise His wrath:

Matthew 13:38-43, "The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."


In this case, Christ and His angels will be doing all the work -- not His earthly followers.

 

[DriftingSand]

Just a couple of questions for "Big Bang" theorists?

1) Approximately what area of space did the Big Bang take place? Which sun, planets, etc. are closest to that location?

2) Is it logical to believe that the particles flying away from a major explosion would become round rather than jagged-edged?

3) If time has a beginning but energy is timeless what time was it a year before time began?

 

[edthecynic]

The fireman does not enter the burning building under the assumption that his losing his life in the fire will save the child, whereas the guilty person knows an innocent will be punished in their place when they agree to it.

Come on, be honest and admit that the price of Christian salvation is moral bankruptcy.

???....can you see the error in your reasoning?.......you've made a mismash of the roles in the two stories.....instead of seeing us as the child in the burning building you're trying to turn us into the fire that killed the fireman......we didn't "agree" to anything before Jesus went to the cross, just as the child did not agree to go into a burning building and wait for a fireman to come along......

You didn't commit any evil before Jesus "went to the cross" either. To be "saved" you must agree to accept an innocent punished in your place. Again, the fireman analogy is meaningless.