Ben Shapiro: Destroying Transgender Arguments

[emilynghiem]

Then they can pay for it themselves. Simple as that.

Right on Doc1 and what if everyone agreed
let prochoice and prolife pay for their own policies and programs
let free market believers reform the VA and invest taxes there,
let govt health care advocates
reform prisons and fund universal care insteadof the death penalty.

Separate benefits policies by party, so if people do or do not believe in
same sex marriage, or believe in women priests, or executions or abortions,
the govt does not force taxpayers to fund things against our beliefs.

why not call a truce. and give tax breaks to party members andleaders
to fund and run their own programs without imposing on anyone else of other beliefs.

why not?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Okay, so if you are going to defend against LGBT beliefs pushed through govt that
penalize and make other beliefs wrong, listen to THIS guy, and hear how it's done.

If I was going to post this thread under Clean Debate Zone:
The way I'd frame the question: Should LGBT beliefs be treated as exercise of
religious freedom and choice of beliefs, expression and practice, similar to other spiritual beliefs? Would that help treat both sides of the debate equally, where both are included and neither are denied equal representation and protection or free exercise under law?

Where I think I could get a point of agreement with this guy:
whether or not it's proven or disproven that
Transgender beliefs or true or false, people still have the free exercise of religion to express
and practice their beliefs without discrimination by govt policies. People's equal free exercise of religion and freedom from establishment by govt of a religious bias would prevent anyone from imposing their own beliefs on others.

So it goes BOTH WAYS.
Where people don't agree on either pro or anti LGBT beliefs,
since neither is proven to the other, the govt and laws cannot be abused
to favor one side's beliefs over the other, but must remain neutral and allow both
to be expressed or exercised equally by free choice.

BTW I don't know where we lost the openness to different tastes and cultures
we had in the 80s when I was in school. When I watched MTV, you could catch a wide range of
death metal, Madonna dance music, rap, punk rock, classic rock, any number or style of bands.

Why all of a sudden does one person expressing themselves
suddenly become a generalization and global statement that other people have to either
protest or defend. Why can't people just be allowed to speak and choose for themselves
WITHOUT making a political statement or "global one world policy" for everyone else?

If students at a school complain about Christmas festivities, or books about same sex parents,
or black rap music, or Asian karaoke or Indian sitar music they can't stand,
Can't anyone can complain about anything, and just let that person have that right
without jumping on them as pro this or anti that.

It doesn't give other people the right to IMPOSE "their culture" on them or complain about discrimination.
Why does everything have to become a "collective statement"
What happened to people just speaking their opinion and it belongs to that person?

What I find works is just letting people speak for themselves.
We are going to have conflicts over how we see or say things
and what we want to include or exclude from policies.

when we have conflicts over policies, for whatever reason, then why can't we just work it out
CASE BY CASE with respect to what will satisfy the interests of all parties fairly and equally
IN THAT PARTICULAR INSTANCE.

I think where we went wrong: if one school or one city comes up with a certain policy,
it does NOT have to be imposed on all other schools or cities (or states across the nation)
to solve problems the same way. Sure, we can ADOPT or choose to MODEL and replicate
programs or ideas that work. But this should be done by free choice.

The mistakes I see made in politics; when Obama decided he agreed that gay marriage should
be legalized, the political left decided to IMPOSE that on everyone else through law instead
of giving people a free choice of beliefs or changing their minds at will. Obama CHOSE to change
his mind, it wasn't forced by law, But then he went and pushed to deprive others of that choice?

And the same happened with the transgender bathroom idea. Instead of giving people and communities
and schools the choice of how to address this, suddenly politicians decided to IMPOSE
one way or another, either force transgender identity accommodations or ban them and
require birth gender distinctions only.

So my argument to Ben Shapiro and others: Yes I agree that no one's beliefs against
LGBT policies and practices should be punished by law, but also people WITH transgender
identity and beliefs should also NOT be discriminated against for their creed, right or wrong.

You can believe science disproves their beliefs, but if this isn't proven to them it remains faith based.
So they have the right to their beliefs equally as Ben Shapiro has a right to his.

Both sides should be treated equally as beliefs until these are proven by science.
If it's proven to you, you hve the right to your beliefs, but not abuse law or govt to
establish or impose that on others, much less to regulate or penalize people
for their beliefs, either way.

This fails as a strawman fallacy.

No one is ‘pushing’ LGBT ‘beliefs,’ neither through government nor anyway else.

And no one is seeking to ‘penalize’ anyone or render other beliefs ‘wrong.’

The Constitution safeguards the right of Americans to pursue self-determination, to express themselves as they see fit, to identify themselves as they deem appropriate, and to present themselves to society in a manner of their own choosing.

“Liberty presumes an autonomy of self that includes freedom of thought, belief, expression, and certain intimate conduct.”
(Lawrence v. Texas (2003))

“These matters, involving the most intimate and personal choices a person may make in a lifetime, choices central to personal dignity and autonomy, are central to the liberty protected by the Fourteenth Amendment. At the heart of liberty is the right to define one’s own concept of existence, of meaning, of the universe, and of the mystery of human life. Beliefs about these matters could not define the attributes of personhood were they formed under compulsion of the State.”
(Planned Parenthood v. Casey (1992))

Consequently, transgender Americans have the Constitutional right to identify as male or female, their birth gender notwithstanding, immune from attack by the state, where measures enacted seeking to disadvantage transgender Americans are invalid manifestations of fear, ignorance, and bigotry.

 

[emilynghiem]

Okay, so if you are going to defend against LGBT beliefs pushed through govt that
penalize and make other beliefs wrong, listen to THIS guy, and hear how it's done.

If I was going to post this thread under Clean Debate Zone:
The way I'd frame the question: Should LGBT beliefs be treated as exercise of
religious freedom and choice of beliefs, expression and practice, similar to other spiritual beliefs? Would that help treat both sides of the debate equally, where both are included and neither are denied equal representation and protection or free exercise under law?

Where I think I could get a point of agreement with this guy:
whether or not it's proven or disproven that
Transgender beliefs or true or false, people still have the free exercise of religion to express
and practice their beliefs without discrimination by govt policies. People's equal free exercise of religion and freedom from establishment by govt of a religious bias would prevent anyone from imposing their own beliefs on others.

So it goes BOTH WAYS.
Where people don't agree on either pro or anti LGBT beliefs,
since neither is proven to the other, the govt and laws cannot be abused
to favor one side's beliefs over the other, but must remain neutral and allow both
to be expressed or exercised equally by free choice.

BTW I don't know where we lost the openness to different tastes and cultures
we had in the 80s when I was in school. When I watched MTV, you could catch a wide range of
death metal, Madonna dance music, rap, punk rock, classic rock, any number or style of bands.

Why all of a sudden does one person expressing themselves
suddenly become a generalization and global statement that other people have to either
protest or defend. Why can't people just be allowed to speak and choose for themselves
WITHOUT making a political statement or "global one world policy" for everyone else?

If students at a school complain about Christmas festivities, or books about same sex parents,
or black rap music, or Asian karaoke or Indian sitar music they can't stand,
Can't anyone can complain about anything, and just let that person have that right
without jumping on them as pro this or anti that.

It doesn't give other people the right to IMPOSE "their culture" on them or complain about discrimination.
Why does everything have to become a "collective statement"
What happened to people just speaking their opinion and it belongs to that person?

What I find works is just letting people speak for themselves.
We are going to have conflicts over how we see or say things
and what we want to include or exclude from policies.

when we have conflicts over policies, for whatever reason, then why can't we just work it out
CASE BY CASE with respect to what will satisfy the interests of all parties fairly and equally
IN THAT PARTICULAR INSTANCE.

I think where we went wrong: if one school or one city comes up with a certain policy,
it does NOT have to be imposed on all other schools or cities (or states across the nation)
to solve problems the same way. Sure, we can ADOPT or choose to MODEL and replicate
programs or ideas that work. But this should be done by free choice.

The mistakes I see made in politics; when Obama decided he agreed that gay marriage should
be legalized, the political left decided to IMPOSE that on everyone else through law instead
of giving people a free choice of beliefs or changing their minds at will. Obama CHOSE to change
his mind, it wasn't forced by law, But then he went and pushed to deprive others of that choice?

And the same happened with the transgender bathroom idea. Instead of giving people and communities
and schools the choice of how to address this, suddenly politicians decided to IMPOSE
one way or another, either force transgender identity accommodations or ban them and
require birth gender distinctions only.

So my argument to Ben Shapiro and others: Yes I agree that no one's beliefs against
LGBT policies and practices should be punished by law, but also people WITH transgender
identity and beliefs should also NOT be discriminated against for their creed, right or wrong.

You can believe science disproves their beliefs, but if this isn't proven to them it remains faith based.
So they have the right to their beliefs equally as Ben Shapiro has a right to his.

Both sides should be treated equally as beliefs until these are proven by science.
If it's proven to you, you hve the right to your beliefs, but not abuse law or govt to
establish or impose that on others, much less to regulate or penalize people
for their beliefs, either way.

This fails as a strawman fallacy.

No one is ‘pushing’ LGBT ‘beliefs,’ neither through government nor anyway else.

And no one is seeking to ‘penalize’ anyone or render other beliefs ‘wrong.’

The Constitution safeguards the right of Americans to pursue self-determination, to express themselves as they see fit, to identify themselves as they deem appropriate, and to present themselves to society in a manner of their own choosing.

“Liberty presumes an autonomy of self that includes freedom of thought, belief, expression, and certain intimate conduct.”
(Lawrence v. Texas (2003))

“These matters, involving the most intimate and personal choices a person may make in a lifetime, choices central to personal dignity and autonomy, are central to the liberty protected by the Fourteenth Amendment. At the heart of liberty is the right to define one’s own concept of existence, of meaning, of the universe, and of the mystery of human life. Beliefs about these matters could not define the attributes of personhood were they formed under compulsion of the State.”
(Planned Parenthood v. Casey (1992))

Consequently, transgender Americans have the Constitutional right to identify as male or female, their birth gender notwithstanding, immune from attack by the state, where measures enacted seeking to disadvantage transgender Americans are invalid manifestations of fear, ignorance, and bigotry.

????
Excuse me C_Clayton_Jones?
I thought a MAJOR point of contention, even causing conflicting legislation
to be pushed or passed through STATES, was that
*A* one side believes that transgender identity and homosexual orientation
should be treated as "inborn" condition similar to RACE
and thus be a PROTECTED CLASS
*B* while the other side believes both of these are
CHOICES OF BEHAVIOR and not a Protected Class!!!
(*C* while my approach I recommend is to treat both the above
as equally valid beliefs or creeds, so all are included equally
though none of these can be imposed by govt without consent of the people affected)

For A and B, THOSE ARE TWO DIFFERENT BELIEFS
BOTH ARE FAITH BASED
NEITHER is Proven or Disproven by Science.
(again, this is why I argue for C - treating them both equally as beliefs
or creeds would allow govt to protect them equally under laws,
so neither side's bias is imposed on the other unconstitutionally by govt,
neither prohibited nor established, and not regulated or penalized by govt
Do you UNDERSTAND that laws requiring people and institutions to
recognize transgender persons based not on genetic gender
but on their beliefs about identity PENALIZES people through govt
for not complying with those beliefs and not agreeing to have govt impose on them???)

Are you and I living on the same planet or in the same century?
Because Houston managed to push reform policies through
that basically "recognized same sex couples for city benefits"
in conflict with Texas state law that only recognized gender
by birth certificate, and then passed the controversial
transgender bathroom policy,
this is what compelled other states to start passing
laws pre-emptively BANNING or BARRING cities
from passing ordinances that would recognize
or expand "accommodation or discrimination"
policies to apply toward giving "protected class status"
to LGBT persons.

Am I stating this incorrectly?

Are we talking about the same thing?

 

[ScienceRocks]

We really don't care what you think of us but we do expect to be treated fairly under the law and respect our constitutional rights to be treated equally as anyone else.

Science is proving each and every day that trans people are different compared to cis people in our brain wiring...This is a issue of science and I haven't seen any papers that disprove this as of yet. The problem with Ben is he thinks we're just unnatural but science says otherwise...Do you really believe that all of the research is wrong? That is what you're saying when you agree with him. People that are trans are willing to give up anything and everything to be what their minds are telling them to be. That means losing family, friends and employment if need be! It would be so much better if people would accept that we're real and deserving of respect.

But what ever you believe you have to admit that we deserve to be treated fairly and don't deserve harm unto ourselves.

 

[emilynghiem]

We really don't care what you think of us but we do expect to be treated fairly under the law and respect our constitutional rights to be treated equally as anyone else.

Science is proving each and every day that trans people are different compared to cis people in our brain wiring...This is a issue of science and I haven't seen any papers that disprove this as of yet. The problem with Ben is he thinks we're just unnatural but science says otherwise...Do you really believe that all of the research is wrong? That is what you're saying when you agree with him. People that are trans are willing to give up anything and everything to be what their minds are telling them to be. That means losing family, friends and employment if need be! It would be so much better if people would accept that we're real and deserving of respect.

But what ever you believe you have to admit that we deserve to be treated fairly and don't deserve harm unto ourselves.

Dear ScienceRocks not sure how many people you are addressing
but I can answer for myself.

I believe in defending your beliefs and identity in this equally
as someone who identifies as Christian, as Atheist, as Buddhist,
as Constitutionalist, as Democrat or Republican as Anarchist or Capitalist.

Whatever you believe and however you express and live
your principles in life, you have that right as a human being,
and the Constitutional laws are based on those natural laws
of what humans need to live as individuals, in relations,
and in collective society for peace and justice, liberty and security.

A Buddhist or Christian does NOT need to prove through science
that their beliefs are true for them. they have a right to those
as their personal beliefs.

likewise my argument is that none of this LGBT policy
or beliefs for this or against that, citing this science
or debunking that interpretation, NONE of that is
even necessary to defend rights to exercise,
express and live by your individual beliefs.

however, if Christians rely on imposing their beliefs
on others in order to justify or prove them,
that is unconstitutional to abuse govt to do that imposition on others.

And so I hold the same principle and standard for
atheists, for anti or pro LGBT advocates, etc.

I also hold political parties responsible if this abuse
of govt, to push beliefs on the public contrary to
their beliefs and consent, constitutes "conspiracy
to violate equal civil rights of others"

The same protection applies to you regardless
what your beliefs are. no govt office institution
law or process such as courts or executive
order or legislation through state or federal govt
should be abused to infringe on your equal
religious freedom to exercise your beliefs.

that is unconstitutional to abuse govt to do that.

so the same rule that applies to protect you
and your beliefs from infringement equally applies to people opposed to your beliefs or mine where neither can we abuse govt to imposed our beliefs on them.

PS as for differences in brains, yes I agree that the brains
of homosexual and transgender people do show differences,
such as correlating to female brains even if the person is physically male.

(It has been argued that differences also show up in liberal vs conservative brains.
People who are native Japanese speakers use their brain functions and
areas differently from people of other languages.)

This doesn't help the argument that mental disorder such as schizophrenia
also shows up as differences in the brain. And schizophrenia can be cured
through spiritual healing, as has been argued with homosexuality being
healed and changed in cases where this was caused by unnatural abuse
and wasn't an unchangeable natural trait for those cases where people did change.

ScienceRocks to be fair about the science and studies:
is it fair to ask both sides to be open about studies
that are being rejected or ignored due to onesided bias?
If one side agrees to look at cases where LGBT conditions
COULD be caused by chemical or hormone changes in the
womb and that some of these cases cannot be changed
even if the person goes through the full spiritual healing
that supposedly works
can the other side agree to look at cases where
people who USED to identify as homosexual or transgender
did successfully heal, and it wasn't an unchangeable inborn trait?

 

[SeaGal]

We really don't care what you think of us but we do expect to be treated fairly under the law and respect our constitutional rights to be treated equally as anyone else.

Science is proving each and every day that trans people are different compared to cis people in our brain wiring...This is a issue of science and I haven't seen any papers that disprove this as of yet. The problem with Ben is he thinks we're just unnatural but science says otherwise...Do you really believe that all of the research is wrong? That is what you're saying when you agree with him. People that are trans are willing to give up anything and everything to be what their minds are telling them to be. That means losing family, friends and employment if need be! It would be so much better if people would accept that we're real and deserving of respect.

But what ever you believe you have to admit that we deserve to be treated fairly and don't deserve harm unto ourselves.

Respect is not a constitutional right. Equal treatment under the law is. None of us deserve harm unto ourselves. What are you forbidden by law to do? Vote? Own property? Drive a car? Wear heels and make-up? Get a boob job? Take hormones? Try out for the girls softball team? Enter a restaurant? Compete in the Olympics as a female?

Are you asking for special treatment because your mind may be wired differently? i.e. - state of mind?

Would you forbid me by law to refer to you using the pronoun he?

What do you do about legal documents?...birth certificate, passport, driver's license, etc?

No matter what has happened with your brain, your body is still male, with the physical characteristics of a male in muscle and skeletal structure. It takes the intervention of medical science to change external characteristics...but as of now, it cannot replace a 'Y' with an 'X'.

I am not in the camp of those who thinks you have an affliction that needs to be 'cured', or afforded special protections or accommodated. You are what you are - and it is sad that your friends and family cannot accept you, as you are.

btw - Respect is a two-way street, re: your avatar.

 

[gipper]

We really don't care what you think of us but we do expect to be treated fairly under the law and respect our constitutional rights to be treated equally as anyone else.

Science is proving each and every day that trans people are different compared to cis people in our brain wiring...This is a issue of science and I haven't seen any papers that disprove this as of yet. The problem with Ben is he thinks we're just unnatural but science says otherwise...Do you really believe that all of the research is wrong? That is what you're saying when you agree with him. People that are trans are willing to give up anything and everything to be what their minds are telling them to be. That means losing family, friends and employment if need be! It would be so much better if people would accept that we're real and deserving of respect.

But what ever you believe you have to admit that we deserve to be treated fairly and don't deserve harm unto ourselves.

Respect is not a constitutional right. Equal treatment under the law is. None of us deserve harm unto ourselves. What are you forbidden by law to do? Vote? Own property? Drive a car? Wear heels and make-up? Get a boob job? Take hormones? Try out for the girls softball team? Enter a restaurant? Compete in the Olympics as a female?

Are you asking for special treatment because your mind may be wired differently? i.e. - state of mind?

Would you forbid me by law to refer to you using the pronoun he?

What do you do about legal documents?...birth certificate, passport, driver's license, etc?

No matter what has happened with your brain, your body is still male, with the physical characteristics of a male in muscle and skeletal structure. It takes the intervention of medical science to change external characteristics...but as of now, it cannot replace a 'Y' with an 'X'.

I am not in the camp of those who thinks you have an affliction that needs to be 'cured', or afforded special protections or accommodated. You are what you are - and it is sad that your friends and family cannot accept you, as you are.

btw - Respect is a two-way street, re: your avatar.

You are talking sense to a crazy person. It never works.

 

[SeaGal]

You are talking sense to a crazy person. It never works.

I don't know any other way to talk.

I may be proven wrong and regret this - as I've not has much interaction with him - but I felt his post was an honest attempt to show what his life is like - and it showed pain.

 

[Doc1]

Okay, so if you are going to defend against LGBT beliefs pushed through govt that
penalize and make other beliefs wrong, listen to THIS guy, and hear how it's done.

If I was going to post this thread under Clean Debate Zone:
The way I'd frame the question: Should LGBT beliefs be treated as exercise of
religious freedom and choice of beliefs, expression and practice, similar to other spiritual beliefs? Would that help treat both sides of the debate equally, where both are included and neither are denied equal representation and protection or free exercise under law?

Where I think I could get a point of agreement with this guy:
whether or not it's proven or disproven that
Transgender beliefs or true or false, people still have the free exercise of religion to express
and practice their beliefs without discrimination by govt policies. People's equal free exercise of religion and freedom from establishment by govt of a religious bias would prevent anyone from imposing their own beliefs on others.

So it goes BOTH WAYS.
Where people don't agree on either pro or anti LGBT beliefs,
since neither is proven to the other, the govt and laws cannot be abused
to favor one side's beliefs over the other, but must remain neutral and allow both
to be expressed or exercised equally by free choice.

BTW I don't know where we lost the openness to different tastes and cultures
we had in the 80s when I was in school. When I watched MTV, you could catch a wide range of
death metal, Madonna dance music, rap, punk rock, classic rock, any number or style of bands.

Why all of a sudden does one person expressing themselves
suddenly become a generalization and global statement that other people have to either
protest or defend. Why can't people just be allowed to speak and choose for themselves
WITHOUT making a political statement or "global one world policy" for everyone else?

If students at a school complain about Christmas festivities, or books about same sex parents,
or black rap music, or Asian karaoke or Indian sitar music they can't stand,
Can't anyone can complain about anything, and just let that person have that right
without jumping on them as pro this or anti that.

It doesn't give other people the right to IMPOSE "their culture" on them or complain about discrimination.
Why does everything have to become a "collective statement"
What happened to people just speaking their opinion and it belongs to that person?

What I find works is just letting people speak for themselves.
We are going to have conflicts over how we see or say things
and what we want to include or exclude from policies.

when we have conflicts over policies, for whatever reason, then why can't we just work it out
CASE BY CASE with respect to what will satisfy the interests of all parties fairly and equally
IN THAT PARTICULAR INSTANCE.

I think where we went wrong: if one school or one city comes up with a certain policy,
it does NOT have to be imposed on all other schools or cities (or states across the nation)
to solve problems the same way. Sure, we can ADOPT or choose to MODEL and replicate
programs or ideas that work. But this should be done by free choice.

The mistakes I see made in politics; when Obama decided he agreed that gay marriage should
be legalized, the political left decided to IMPOSE that on everyone else through law instead
of giving people a free choice of beliefs or changing their minds at will. Obama CHOSE to change
his mind, it wasn't forced by law, But then he went and pushed to deprive others of that choice?

And the same happened with the transgender bathroom idea. Instead of giving people and communities
and schools the choice of how to address this, suddenly politicians decided to IMPOSE
one way or another, either force transgender identity accommodations or ban them and
require birth gender distinctions only.

So my argument to Ben Shapiro and others: Yes I agree that no one's beliefs against
LGBT policies and practices should be punished by law, but also people WITH transgender
identity and beliefs should also NOT be discriminated against for their creed, right or wrong.

You can believe science disproves their beliefs, but if this isn't proven to them it remains faith based.
So they have the right to their beliefs equally as Ben Shapiro has a right to his.

Both sides should be treated equally as beliefs until these are proven by science.
If it's proven to you, you hve the right to your beliefs, but not abuse law or govt to
establish or impose that on others, much less to regulate or penalize people
for their beliefs, either way.

This fails as a strawman fallacy.

No one is ‘pushing’ LGBT ‘beliefs,’ neither through government nor anyway else.

And no one is seeking to ‘penalize’ anyone or render other beliefs ‘wrong.’

The Constitution safeguards the right of Americans to pursue self-determination, to express themselves as they see fit, to identify themselves as they deem appropriate, and to present themselves to society in a manner of their own choosing.

“Liberty presumes an autonomy of self that includes freedom of thought, belief, expression, and certain intimate conduct.”
(Lawrence v. Texas (2003))

“These matters, involving the most intimate and personal choices a person may make in a lifetime, choices central to personal dignity and autonomy, are central to the liberty protected by the Fourteenth Amendment. At the heart of liberty is the right to define one’s own concept of existence, of meaning, of the universe, and of the mystery of human life. Beliefs about these matters could not define the attributes of personhood were they formed under compulsion of the State.”
(Planned Parenthood v. Casey (1992))

Consequently, transgender Americans have the Constitutional right to identify as male or female, their birth gender notwithstanding, immune from attack by the state, where measures enacted seeking to disadvantage transgender Americans are invalid manifestations of fear, ignorance, and bigotry.

No problem, but they can pay for operation themselves, no insurance coverage for it AND they can pee in the men's room if they have a penis.

 

[BlindBoo]

Another fast talking huckster who tries to embarrass and denigrate those who dare question his logic.

Suck it Ben.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

We really don't care what you think of us but we do expect to be treated fairly under the law and respect our constitutional rights to be treated equally as anyone else.

Science is proving each and every day that trans people are different compared to cis people in our brain wiring...This is a issue of science and I haven't seen any papers that disprove this as of yet. The problem with Ben is he thinks we're just unnatural but science says otherwise...Do you really believe that all of the research is wrong? That is what you're saying when you agree with him. People that are trans are willing to give up anything and everything to be what their minds are telling them to be. That means losing family, friends and employment if need be! It would be so much better if people would accept that we're real and deserving of respect.

But what ever you believe you have to admit that we deserve to be treated fairly and don't deserve harm unto ourselves.

Respect is not a constitutional right. Equal treatment under the law is. None of us deserve harm unto ourselves. What are you forbidden by law to do? Vote? Own property? Drive a car? Wear heels and make-up? Get a boob job? Take hormones? Try out for the girls softball team? Enter a restaurant? Compete in the Olympics as a female?

Are you asking for special treatment because your mind may be wired differently? i.e. - state of mind?

Would you forbid me by law to refer to you using the pronoun he?

What do you do about legal documents?...birth certificate, passport, driver's license, etc?

No matter what has happened with your brain, your body is still male, with the physical characteristics of a male in muscle and skeletal structure. It takes the intervention of medical science to change external characteristics...but as of now, it cannot replace a 'Y' with an 'X'.

I am not in the camp of those who thinks you have an affliction that needs to be 'cured', or afforded special protections or accommodated. You are what you are - and it is sad that your friends and family cannot accept you, as you are.

btw - Respect is a two-way street, re: your avatar.

“Respect is not a constitutional right.”

No one says it is.

But there is a Constitutional right to self-determination.

“Are you asking for special treatment because your mind may be wired differently? i.e. - state of mind?”

Defending one’s rights and protected liberties is not to seek ‘special treatment.’

“No matter what has happened with your brain, your body is still male, with the physical characteristics of a male in muscle and skeletal structure. It takes the intervention of medical science to change external characteristics...but as of now, it cannot replace a 'Y' with an 'X'.”

The decision to be transgender is entitled to Constitutional protections, immune from attack by the state, regardless of one's birth gender.

As for references to birth certificates and legal documents, those are nothing more than red herring fallacies.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

I don't have anything against LGBT, but the transgender issue is nothing more than psychological/psychiatric disorder called Gender Dysphoria.

All this transgender shit is simply ignoring the real problem.

 

[SeaGal]

It would be so much better if people would accept that we're real and deserving of respect..

Again, respect is a two way street....re: your avatar.

What are you forbidden by law to do? Would you forbid me by law to refer to you using the pronoun he?

The fattest ladies in the room...twice ignored.

Defending one’s rights and protected liberties is not to seek ‘special treatment.’.

I agree.

The decision to be transgender is entitled to Constitutional protections, immune from attack by the state, regardless of one's birth gender.

The 'decision'?

Unfortunately none of our constitutionally protected rights are immune to attack from the state. Do you support the right to unfettered free speech? Unfettered gun rights? Unfettered freedom of religious expression? Assembly?

As for references to birth certificates and legal documents, those are nothing more than red herring fallacies.

No, they are not. They are legal documents that I can go to jail for falsifying.

You will not succeed in establishing a gender neutral society - if you are fighting for the right to wear dresses, heels and hose - that you already have. You have the freedom to have any hormone replacement therapy or sex change surgery that you can pay for.

If you are fighting for the 'right' to restrict my rights of speech, etal - then I too will defend my 'rights and protected liberties'. That's how the whole freedom thing works.

 

[bendog]

Okay, so if you are going to defend against LGBT beliefs pushed through govt that
penalize and make other beliefs wrong, listen to THIS guy, and hear how it's done.

If I was going to post this thread under Clean Debate Zone:
The way I'd frame the question: Should LGBT beliefs be treated as exercise of
religious freedom and choice of beliefs, expression and practice, similar to other spiritual beliefs? Would that help treat both sides of the debate equally, where both are included and neither are denied equal representation and protection or free exercise under law?

Where I think I could get a point of agreement with this guy:
whether or not it's proven or disproven that
Transgender beliefs or true or false, people still have the free exercise of religion to express
and practice their beliefs without discrimination by govt policies. People's equal free exercise of religion and freedom from establishment by govt of a religious bias would prevent anyone from imposing their own beliefs on others.

So it goes BOTH WAYS.
Where people don't agree on either pro or anti LGBT beliefs,
since neither is proven to the other, the govt and laws cannot be abused
to favor one side's beliefs over the other, but must remain neutral and allow both
to be expressed or exercised equally by free choice.

BTW I don't know where we lost the openness to different tastes and cultures
we had in the 80s when I was in school. When I watched MTV, you could catch a wide range of
death metal, Madonna dance music, rap, punk rock, classic rock, any number or style of bands.

Why all of a sudden does one person expressing themselves
suddenly become a generalization and global statement that other people have to either
protest or defend. Why can't people just be allowed to speak and choose for themselves
WITHOUT making a political statement or "global one world policy" for everyone else?

If students at a school complain about Christmas festivities, or books about same sex parents,
or black rap music, or Asian karaoke or Indian sitar music they can't stand,
Can't anyone can complain about anything, and just let that person have that right
without jumping on them as pro this or anti that.

It doesn't give other people the right to IMPOSE "their culture" on them or complain about discrimination.
Why does everything have to become a "collective statement"
What happened to people just speaking their opinion and it belongs to that person?

What I find works is just letting people speak for themselves.
We are going to have conflicts over how we see or say things
and what we want to include or exclude from policies.

when we have conflicts over policies, for whatever reason, then why can't we just work it out
CASE BY CASE with respect to what will satisfy the interests of all parties fairly and equally
IN THAT PARTICULAR INSTANCE.

I think where we went wrong: if one school or one city comes up with a certain policy,
it does NOT have to be imposed on all other schools or cities (or states across the nation)
to solve problems the same way. Sure, we can ADOPT or choose to MODEL and replicate
programs or ideas that work. But this should be done by free choice.

The mistakes I see made in politics; when Obama decided he agreed that gay marriage should
be legalized, the political left decided to IMPOSE that on everyone else through law instead
of giving people a free choice of beliefs or changing their minds at will. Obama CHOSE to change
his mind, it wasn't forced by law, But then he went and pushed to deprive others of that choice?

And the same happened with the transgender bathroom idea. Instead of giving people and communities
and schools the choice of how to address this, suddenly politicians decided to IMPOSE
one way or another, either force transgender identity accommodations or ban them and
require birth gender distinctions only.

So my argument to Ben Shapiro and others: Yes I agree that no one's beliefs against
LGBT policies and practices should be punished by law, but also people WITH transgender
identity and beliefs should also NOT be discriminated against for their creed, right or wrong.

You can believe science disproves their beliefs, but if this isn't proven to them it remains faith based.
So they have the right to their beliefs equally as Ben Shapiro has a right to his.

Both sides should be treated equally as beliefs until these are proven by science.
If it's proven to you, you hve the right to your beliefs, but not abuse law or govt to
establish or impose that on others, much less to regulate or penalize people
for their beliefs, either way.

There are atheist and non-religious same sex couples asking for equal treatment under the law. So, with respect, your OP is logically a non-starter.

 

[Doc1]

We really don't care what you think of us but we do expect to be treated fairly under the law and respect our constitutional rights to be treated equally as anyone else.

Science is proving each and every day that trans people are different compared to cis people in our brain wiring...This is a issue of science and I haven't seen any papers that disprove this as of yet. The problem with Ben is he thinks we're just unnatural but science says otherwise...Do you really believe that all of the research is wrong? That is what you're saying when you agree with him. People that are trans are willing to give up anything and everything to be what their minds are telling them to be. That means losing family, friends and employment if need be! It would be so much better if people would accept that we're real and deserving of respect.

But what ever you believe you have to admit that we deserve to be treated fairly and don't deserve harm unto ourselves.

But you don't have the "right" to have anyone else pay for anything connected to it.

 

[sartre play]

Not transgender, don't even know one. you can read papers on the subject, seems not enough is known. there is such a small number of transgender people in the population not sure how it effects our life. just used as a political foot ball to promote more hate between political divisions.

 

[Wyld Kard]

This is the thing...Even if it isn't natural which the latest science says it is...Who are you to control peoples lives?

So you're the one arguing for fascism and violation of human rights.

Even if it isn't natural which the latest science says it is...

There is nothing natural when someone decides to have expensive surgeries done to remove healthy body parts just to sustain a delusion.

Transgenderism is a mental illness and it should be treated as such.

 

[MaryL]

Shapiro nailed it. Gender dysphoria. It's a disorder, a deficit. Anyone that has ever read books by the late great Oliver Saks, or has worked in the medical profession, realized long ago how deluded people are on homosexual "rights". I don't think we are mandated to accept or enable their dysphoric mindset.