Before and after images of the Middle East.

[Dogmaphobe]

 

[Mushroom]

View attachment 318551

Why are you posting a picture of a nation the US has had nothing to do with for 40 years now?

All you are doing is proving your actual claim is wrong, and the cause is really radical Fundamentalist Islam.

Lebanon, Egypt, Afghanistan, Iran, all those countries were largely non-secular and were nothing like today 40 years ago. But the rise in fundamentalism has made many turn the clocks back to 1300.

For Syria, blame the Russians and the Syrian government.

 

[the other mike]

the rise in fundamentalism

And what do you think caused this ?
I'll give you one guess.

 

[Mushroom]

the rise in fundamentalism

And what do you think caused this ?
I'll give you one guess.

Islamic fundamentalism.

You seem to be thinking as a Conspiracy Theorist. Everything has to have a cause, some human entity behind everything. The US no more caused that in Iran than the Soviet Union caused it in Afghanistan. It has been around for hundreds of years, rising and falling.

Only children spend their lives trying to blame somebody for things that happen.

 

[the other mike]

Islamic fundamentalism.

You seem to be thinking as a Conspiracy Theorist. Everything has to have a cause, some human entity behind everything. The US no more caused that in Iran than the Soviet Union caused it in Afghanistan. It has been around for hundreds of years, rising and falling.

Only children spend their lives trying to blame somebody for things that happen.

So who's the child here ? Me, for saying western intervention caused 95% of the chaos in the Middle East that is occurring today ?

You were partially correct about Afghanistan.

Operation Cyclone - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As for conspiracy theorist, you may be partially correct there also, Huckleberry.

 

[the other mike]

Islamic Extremism is a Product of Western Imperialism

As we struggle to come to terms with the latest terrorist attacks in Brussels, it is important that we understand the causes of such extremism. After all,

www.counterpunch.org

How Western Intervention Fuels 'Terrorism' | Common Dreams

"We will not be cowed by these sick terrorists," said British Prime Minister David Cameron after ISIS produced a grisly video of the mass beheading of Syrian captives by foreign jihadis who allegedly included British fighters. "We will not be intimidated," said Canadian Prime Minister Stephen...

www.commondreams.org

Is it fair to blame the West for trouble in the Middle East?

For at least a decade, attempts to understand why some young Muslims living in Western countries turn to violence in the name of religion have raised questions about Western foreign policy in the Middle…

theconversation.com

Step Back: Lessons for U.S. Foreign Policy from the Failed War on Terror

www.cato.org

 

[Mushroom]

So who's the child here ? Me, for saying western intervention caused 95% of the chaos in the Middle East that is occurring today ?

That very statement in and of itself shows you are wrong. I now invite you do go back and read it again very slowly.

"Western Intervention". There would be no "intervention" if things were not a mess in the first place. That is literally like trying to say ambulances cause all major car crashes.

That's alright, I can understand because you are a highly biased political animal, and can only see things through the rose tinted glasses of your political beliefs. I actually see the same thing all the time in Conspiracy Theorists, and am used to laughing at them.

 

[the other mike]

So who's the child here ? Me, for saying western intervention caused 95% of the chaos in the Middle East that is occurring today ?

That very statement in and of itself shows you are wrong. I now invite you do go back and read it again very slowly.

"Western Intervention". There would be no "intervention" if things were not a mess in the first place. That is literally like trying to say ambulances cause all major car crashes.

That's alright, I can understand because you are a highly biased political animal, and can only see things through the rose tinted glasses of your political beliefs. I actually see the same thing all the time in Conspiracy Theorists, and am used to laughing at them.

You're wrong.
British and American companies didn't want them to get rich off of their own oil.
Same shit we're pulling in Venezuela.

 

[the other mike]

We made a deal with the devil.

 

[Elton]

the rise in fundamentalism

And what do you think caused this ?
I'll give you one guess.

Fundamentalism comes and go's. It's not the fault of extraneous people. It is the fault of those with those beliefs.

 

[Mushroom]

British and American companies didn't want them to get rich off of their own oil.
Same shit we're pulling in Venezuela.

Say what? So you are what, trying to claim that the British and AMerican companies are responsible for the crash of oil prices a decade ago? Since when exactly have those 2 countries had that much influence in the International price of Crude Oil?

Are they the ones responsible for Venezuela nationalizing most of their industries, driving most foreign investments away because they did not want to invest billions into their infrastructure, only to have it taken away?

No, Venezuela is suffering at their own cause. They drove away foreign investment, then based their entire economy around only a single commodity, oil. And when the price of oil fell,. their economy collapsed.

But yea, I get it. You are a conspiracy theorist and see boogie men behind every curtain and door.

 

[the other mike]

Say what? So you are what, trying to claim that the British and AMerican companies are responsible for the crash of oil prices a decade ago?

Nobody said anything about a decade ago Huckleberry.

 

[Elton]

Say what? So you are what, trying to claim that the British and AMerican companies are responsible for the crash of oil prices a decade ago?

Nobody said anything about a decade ago Huckleberry.

Chavez nationalized the oil fields, gave the companies involved to his cronies, who are incompetent boobs, and they in turn allowed the oil infrastructure to fall apart. That's why Venezuelan oil production has fallen so fast. No one who knows how to do it properly will set foot in the country. A friend of mine is paid 250,000 per year to supervise the maintenance, and safety protocols at a refinery in India. He was offered over a million to do the same job in Venezuela, and passed because his life would be in constant danger.

 

[Mushroom]

Chavez nationalized the oil fields, gave the companies involved to his cronies, who are incompetent boobs, and they in turn allowed the oil infrastructure to fall apart. That's why Venezuelan oil production has fallen so fast. No one who knows how to do it properly will set foot in the country.

Oh, it is more than that. I know 2 people that worked on different aspects of updating their infrastructure in the 1990's.

The first worked for Hughes Aerospace, and oversaw the updating of a large satellite farm outside the capitol. Hughes built and put in the equipment, and Venezuela was then to lease them for a period of 25 years and pay for all maintenance. There was no money spent up-front, the thought was that 25 year lease would pay for the cost of putting in the equipment.

AT&T did something similar with their phone systems. Replace it all with new digital equipment, replace the old copper with fiber, give it a system even better than what the US had at the time. They put in and own the equipment, Venezuela pays the investment via a long term lease.

And in both of those cases, the Chavez government "Nationalized" them. Basically taking all the work, then kicking out the companies without compensation. Well, fine, is their country they can do what they want.

But guess what? All those systems are now failing, and nobody is interested in going back in to fix them. I have read reports that huge parts of their phone system now no longer work, and need to be replaced. But absolutely no company is going to risk it again, spending billions to repair and replace the system, only to then be told to get out and taking it all as a loss.

And Ford once had a huge production facility there. But over the years they have cut production so far that for 4 years it was actually closed. Then in 2018 they marginally opened it, producing only a single model for use in Venezuela (most of them are bought by the government). The same with Kellogg's, 2 years ago the inability to get raw materials and collapsed economy forced them to close their factory. Almost immediately the government seized it, and it has produced nothing since.

It is things like this that prevents companies from investing any money there anymore. Nobody wants to spend billions of dollars in building factories or improving power plants and the like, only to have them taken and paid nothing for all their investment.

Any real investment needs to be symbiotic in nature, where each side benefits from what is done. The company gets paid for the work done, the country gets upgraded services and jobs. But when Venezuela acts parasitic and only wants to take and give nothing in return, all such investment stops.

And obviously Angelo has absolutely no idea that the Venezuelan economy crashed when in the mid-2000's the price of oil plummeted from record highs, to record lows. And with the entire economy based around a single product, this brought the entire house of cards down with it. And over a decade and a half later they are still suffering from that.

In fact, many doubt they can recover unless there is a major change in government. Even their oil production and refining capabilities are now starting to collapse due to lack of maintenance and mismanagement, and nobody wants to go in and try to fix it. Doing so will cost hundreds of billions of dollars, and nobody will trust Venezuela in paying them back for that work and expense.

It is not the nationalization itself that was the problem, that has happened a great many times during the last century. And companies will still line up to do business with them. But Venezuela went even farther, claiming that the debts and costs associated with the nationalized company were not their responsibility, and most of those had been recent upgrades that had come nowhere close to paying back the expense.

That is like contracting somebody to build your house, then the moment construction is complete saying that you are not going to pay for it anymore. Or agreeing to let a company build a factory on land you own in exchange for rent, then after a year stating that you are taking the land back.

 

[Bleipriester]

Say what? So you are what, trying to claim that the British and AMerican companies are responsible for the crash of oil prices a decade ago?

Nobody said anything about a decade ago Huckleberry.

Chavez nationalized the oil fields, gave the companies involved to his cronies, who are incompetent boobs, and they in turn allowed the oil infrastructure to fall apart. That's why Venezuelan oil production has fallen so fast. No one who knows how to do it properly will set foot in the country. A friend of mine is paid 250,000 per year to supervise the maintenance, and safety protocols at a refinery in India. He was offered over a million to do the same job in Venezuela, and passed because his life would be in constant danger.

Vast bullshit. Venezuelas oil company was nationalized in the 70´s and oil revenues grew under Chavez.

That´s how you people are fooled by your interventionist governments: Creating an alternate reality in which you support their next war.

 

[Correll]

View attachment 318551

We invaded Iran?

 

[Mushroom]

Vast bullshit. Venezuelas oil company was nationalized in the 70´s and oil revenues grew under Chavez.

That´s how you people are fooled by your interventionist governments: Creating an alternate reality in which you support their next war.

That had not a damned thing to do with the government, that was just the price of oil. I remember 2009, that was the first sign there could be trouble because they were hit hard by that drop, and suddenly flourished in the price of oil hit record highs again over the next few years.

And in the early 2010s they went spend crazy. Thinking that fast easy oil money would last forever, and did absolutely no planning for the future. It was all "Bread & Circuses", with no thought into investing in their own future. Then the price of oil not just dropped, it crashed.

I found it funny when the value of the currency of Venezuela became worth less than the fictional currency in World of Warcraft. This is the problem when your economy is based only on a single product, and you have made no plans for the future.

China is in a similar boat, almost all of their economy is now based upon exporting finished goods, they are almost entirely a production economy. And if that export was to ever stop, they would collapse. We are already seeing some of that now because of the massive drop in trade the last few months.

And it is where the US is largely immune. We have an amazingly diverse economy, based on design, manufacturing, and raw material production. But out keystone always has and always will be in food. We are the largest exporter of food in the world. And no matter what, people will always need to eat.

Even if all oil vanished and a new miracle metal replaced iron, aluminum and copper we would still be the largest exporter of food in the world. And that is actually a commodity that we could easily and quickly ramp up at need. Unlike the vast majority of commodities which only occur in fixed locations.

 

[Bleipriester]

Vast bullshit. Venezuelas oil company was nationalized in the 70´s and oil revenues grew under Chavez.

That´s how you people are fooled by your interventionist governments: Creating an alternate reality in which you support their next war.

That had not a damned thing to do with the government, that was just the price of oil. I remember 2009, that was the first sign there could be trouble because they were hit hard by that drop, and suddenly flourished in the price of oil hit record highs again over the next few years.

And in the early 2010s they went spend crazy. Thinking that fast easy oil money would last forever, and did absolutely no planning for the future. It was all "Bread & Circuses", with no thought into investing in their own future. Then the price of oil not just dropped, it crashed.

I found it funny when the value of the currency of Venezuela became worth less than the fictional currency in World of Warcraft. This is the problem when your economy is based only on a single product, and you have made no plans for the future.

China is in a similar boat, almost all of their economy is now based upon exporting finished goods, they are almost entirely a production economy. And if that export was to ever stop, they would collapse. We are already seeing some of that now because of the massive drop in trade the last few months.

And it is where the US is largely immune. We have an amazingly diverse economy, based on design, manufacturing, and raw material production. But out keystone always has and always will be in food. We are the largest exporter of food in the world. And no matter what, people will always need to eat.

Even if all oil vanished and a new miracle metal replaced iron, aluminum and copper we would still be the largest exporter of food in the world. And that is actually a commodity that we could easily and quickly ramp up at need. Unlike the vast majority of commodities which only occur in fixed locations.

Venezuela´s problem is the inner opposition that is supported and controlled by Washington. It is not the man on the street but the fat cats running businesses. They waited until Chavez was gone to restart their efforts to replace the leftist government because public support for Chavez was too staunch. Shelves are not going empty because a government is leftist. They are going empty because of boycott. And there was always enough to have full shelves in opposition fat cat districts. And when the government told the fat cat bakeries to use the limited supply to make bread instead of donuts they cried and raged.
When it became clear that public support for Maduro was also too staunch, the US intervened by declaring Venezuela a national threat which is the requirement to impose sanctions.
Today, Washington has played all its cards against Venezuela but war.
You see, Saudi Arabia didn´t suffer such hardships because of the oil price.

 

[Mushroom]

They are going empty because of boycott.

You see, Saudi Arabia didn´t suffer such hardships because of the oil price.

Exactly which boycott is that?

Now granted, there are sanctions put in place, but that is not the same thing as a boycott. And they only went into effect last year, so that does not explain the collapse a decade prior to that.

And Saudi Arabia did not suffer so much because it has a more distributed economy. Since the 1970's they have actively worked to diversify their economy, and done a great job doing so. Not just oil, they are now a world leader in the production of petrochemicals, including herbicides and plastic. They have also expanded their production of iron and steel, as well as invested in companies internationally. And they are the leading banking nation in that area of the world.

And for thousands of years the Arabs have also been traders. That is what they were known for going back to antiquity. And they still maintain that trade mentality today. Even today they are the center of a vast trading network.

This is what them survive so well, while Venezuela did not. They became a "one trick pony", and when that pony got sick the rest of their act collapsed.

And other countries like Mexico also did not suffer as much, because they also have a highly diverse economy. Primarily agriculture in addition to manufacturing. Oil was a big part of it, but never the main part.

Meanwhile, all you really just said is "blah blah Washington blah blah."

And boycott? Kellogg's left because the country could no longer provide enough raw materials to keep the factory running (and the crashing of the economy meant they could not even break even by importing grains to make into food). They were still there until that, and Ford is still there today building trucks. Not much of a "boycott" there.

 

[Picaro]

Getting oil out of the ground and shipping it out of what in Venezuela is a very nasty swamp takes a lot of capital up front, and a lot of expertise at the ground level to build and keep the infrastructure going. At one time, and probably still are in some parts of the swamp, the expenses per barrel were higher than those in the North Sea platforms. The leftists nationalized it without a single thought of preparing to maintain thier primary source of foreign exchange. They're a lot like arrogant rich people everywhere; they despise people with real jobs and expertise, and go out of their way to demean and disparage workers while babbling high minded platitudes they learned in American universities, mostly about their own alleged intellectual superiority, and then they will turn around and blame some 'conspiracy' when their own stupidity and vanity fails to produce the results their teachers told them to expect. American companies do the same sort of stupid stuff, but the U.S. has a much larger base and talent pool to offset rich and powerful dumbasses and their usual mistakes; small countries don't have that luxury.

Lil Angelo knows exactly nothing at all about how things actually get done in real life, nor any desire to find out, so he just parrots drivel all day long.