Baruch Dayan Emmet: Naftali Frenkel, Gil'ad Sha'er, Eyal Yifrach- UPDATES

[Ropey]

 

[Phoenall]

As you're one of the few serious people on this board, I thought I'd reply to you and anyone else who might be interested. Hamas is not behind this tragic episode and neither is Shin Bet/Mossad as others have intimated.

This incident bears all the hallmarks of a local Palestinian clan, the Banu Qawasmeh. They are one of the three largest clans in the Mount Hebron area and have a historical reputation for scuppering any attempts at reconcilliation beteween Hamas and Fateh and also any normalisation of relations between Israel and Hamas/Fateh, such as the cease fire of 2003 that was supposed to end the 2nd Intefada that all the factions agreed to.

During that ceasefire, the Qawasmehs planned and executed a suicide attack on the No.2 bus in Jerusalem, which killed 23 Israelis; this was in revenge for the previous Israeli assassination of Abdullah Qawasmeh. They did something similar in 2004 in Beersheba.

They are a powerful rogue element with, it has to be said, some tenuous links to Hamas' military wing. This of course leaves Hamas in a cleft stick at the moment, as it cannot be seen to publically denounce any attempt to use kidnapping Israelis in order to free Palestinian political prisoners held in Israeli jails, nor is it able to punish the Qawasmehs because it's being forced to lay low by the current (and possible future) Israeli operations in the area.

Hamas makes and always has made a point of claiming responsibility for both its sucesses and its failures; having just reconciled with Fateh, it would be the height of suicidal stupidity to put the deal into question by kidnapping Israelis now.

Regardless of what some of this forum's more strident "Hamas haters" say or even believe, Hamas is not that stupid or that crazy.

Challenge----you may very well be right-----HOWEVER ---hamas is still to blame because
of its teachings and policy. Hamas is very clear in its INSTRUCTION that killing
jews ---especially jewish children --- is ALWAYS A GOOD IDEA. Thus, whether or not
the operation was carried out by Hamas---or not. that organization is guilty of inspiring it.

People in the USA have been convicted of violation of civil rights just for saying "attacking
them is a good idea"

Carefull, you are going onto dangerous ground. If you can blame a group because of it's "teachings and policy" then the corrollary is, you must also blame Zionism, in both it's Christian and Jewish forms and the institutions of the state of Israel who follow it's tenets, for the whole sorry mess in the first place.

In any event, that's no excuse for disproportionate revenge, which is, I hear, being planned as we speak. Find and bring the actual killers to justice, by all means, but another ground invasion of Gaza? Bad move. Operation Cast Lead, demolished Israel's standing in the world community, another massacre of innocent Palestinians will destroy any sympathy gained by the deaths of these young men and given the EU is torn over imposing sanctions on Israel, such an invasion may well be the tipping point.

Why should we blame Zionism when it has only one belief :-

Its general definition means the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel.

Since the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, Zionism has come to include the movement for the development of the State of Israel and the protection of the Jewish nation in Israel through support for the Israel Defense Forces.


Is that any different to say the American dream, does it preach death and destruction, violence and bloodshed, terrorism and murder. No it preaches peace and existence from all harm

 

[Lipush]

Mahne Yehuda market, today: Dozens gather to protest the murder of the teens- nearly 30 were arrested due to violent behavior-

 

[amity1844]

It's official: Bodies of the three teens were found in Hebron, 5 O'clock Israel time, by 3 Yeshiva boys.

The bodies were found in a well, in Halhul village, near Hebron. The families are informed.

- IDF forces are on the hunt to locate the kidnappers, raids on houses in Hebron.

- Palestinian Hamas in Gaza fear for the consqeuences of the kidnapping and killing of the boys.

- Jews in Hebron and Yitzhar call for price tag and revenge.

So does this mean about 100 or so innocent Palestinians are now going to have to die?
Quo vadis?

 

[Lipush]

It's official: Bodies of the three teens were found in Hebron, 5 O'clock Israel time, by 3 Yeshiva boys.

The bodies were found in a well, in Halhul village, near Hebron. The families are informed.

- IDF forces are on the hunt to locate the kidnappers, raids on houses in Hebron.

- Palestinian Hamas in Gaza fear for the consqeuences of the kidnapping and killing of the boys.

- Jews in Hebron and Yitzhar call for price tag and revenge.

So does this mean about 100 or so innocent Palestinians are now going to have to die?
Quo vadis?

100 Palestinians are going to have to die?

And who said that?

 

[Ropey]

Amity comes here for no other reason than to say such things at such a time.

 

[Statistikhengst]

My comment was in direct reference to the post I was responding to - not on what Israel is or is not going to do or on "collective punishment" but on the statement that the Palestinians are "collectively responsible".

And is it surprising why people have that opinion?

Remember the streets named after martyrs, the tv programs for kids telling them Jews are apes and pigs, the UN schools not exactly teaching peace in the WB and Gaza, etc.

It occurs on both sides of the fight Carolyn - Israel has streets and buildings and squares named after former terrorists. Israeli children can be taught to hate, though at least the Government is taking steps to address that and deeply questioning if that is the kind of society they want for their state...there is little of that with the Palestinians. Though, they don't have a state either.

It might not be surprising that they have that opinion - but does that make it right? An eye for an eye until everyone is blind?

care to name those streets?

care to name those squares?

 

[irosie91]

It's official: Bodies of the three teens were found in Hebron, 5 O'clock Israel time, by 3 Yeshiva boys.

The bodies were found in a well, in Halhul village, near Hebron. The families are informed.

- IDF forces are on the hunt to locate the kidnappers, raids on houses in Hebron.

- Palestinian Hamas in Gaza fear for the consqeuences of the kidnapping and killing of the boys.

- Jews in Hebron and Yitzhar call for price tag and revenge.

So does this mean about 100 or so innocent Palestinians are now going to have to die?
Quo vadis?

the fact that some "Palestinans" did that which "Palestinians" are taught is noble and
good and pleasing to their "god" -----and for which they will be lauded as heroes -----
ie they grabbed three jewish children and murdered them------will not CAUSE the killing
of a bunch of "Palestinians" ------that which will cause the deaths of Palestinians----will
still be a response to that which 'palestinans' DO from this point on. Right now
'Palestinians" are celebrating the murders committed by their heros by tossing bombs
on Israel------their tossing bombs on Israel WILL result in loss of "Palestinian" lives.
Their future attacks on jews will also result in loss of lives of "Palestinians"------as in
all violent conflicts -----lots of the lives lost -----will be those of innocent people. The people
who murdered the three kids -----are------in the opinion of lots of depraved people----
INNOCENT-------is that what you mean by "innocent lives" in view of the fact that
in the past you did justify the murder of jews by "Palestinians"-----or the "targeting"
of jews by "Palestinians"

 

[Statistikhengst]

- The house of the second terrorists is demolished as well

 

[Statistikhengst]

Then you have been walking around with your eyes closed, or you are wearing myopic anti Jew glasses with a red tint to them. The majority of attempted kidnappings have been done by hamas, the majority of rockets are by hamas, the majority of bombs are by hamas. They are incredibly stupid to call down force on their heads because it brings them sympathy.......................

One of my best friends was a member of the IDF's Intifada Snatch Squad, what was their role?

I bet it wasn't to kidnap children and then brutally murder them, more likely to arrest criminals and terrorists in the act and hold them till they came to court.

 

[Hossfly]

In all seriousness - I find it hard to believe Hamas, as an organization would be behind it because it would seem an incredibly stupid thing to do - they would have to know the repercussions, it's impossible to see a gain for them.

the gain would be the commission of terrorism-----the weapon used to accomplish
the glorious age of Islamic conquest----anyone interested in the value of terrorism,
should read the koran

It looks like, from what I've read - that the boys were kidnapped and killed almost immediately - no holding as hostage, nothing. They were chosen because they were Jewish, an easy target and murdered. That doesn't sound like Hamas - reagardless of people think, they are not stupid people or they would not have gotten as far as they have. Right now, they seem to be striving for some sort of "political legitimacy" in the international arena. An action such as this would turn much of the international community against them.

I just don't see a gain. On the other hand - being able to pin it on Hamas, rather than a couple of individuials or (as I read in one account) a small previously unknown group - would be a gain for Israel, who opposed the unity government and wants Abbas to break it.

My generation believes that whoever is in charge is responsible for the actions that occur in a country. If Hamas is in charge they bear the responsibility. In this case I would be worried that Obama would retaliate for the murder of an American citizen. Then again, Obama won't even pick up the telephone to demand the Mexican president release our Marine. Therefore, Hamas gets another free pass.

 

[aris2chat]

And is it surprising why people have that opinion?

Remember the streets named after martyrs, the tv programs for kids telling them Jews are apes and pigs, the UN schools not exactly teaching peace in the WB and Gaza, etc.

It occurs on both sides of the fight Carolyn - Israel has streets and buildings and squares named after former terrorists. Israeli children can be taught to hate, though at least the Government is taking steps to address that and deeply questioning if that is the kind of society they want for their state...there is little of that with the Palestinians. Though, they don't have a state either.

It might not be surprising that they have that opinion - but does that make it right? An eye for an eye until everyone is blind?

care to name those streets?

care to name those squares?

Maybe they're thinking of Raziel street

 

[Ropey]

It occurs on both sides of the fight Carolyn - Israel has streets and buildings and squares named after former terrorists. Israeli children can be taught to hate, though at least the Government is taking steps to address that and deeply questioning if that is the kind of society they want for their state...there is little of that with the Palestinians. Though, they don't have a state either.

It might not be surprising that they have that opinion - but does that make it right? An eye for an eye until everyone is blind?

care to name those streets?

care to name those squares?

Maybe they're thinking of Raziel street

The Archangel.

 

[I.P.Freely]

One of my best friends was a member of the IDF's Intifada Snatch Squad, what was their role?

I bet it wasn't to kidnap children and then brutally murder them, more likely to arrest criminals and terrorists in the act and hold them till they came to court.

I note you did not add my responce This link is a sanitized version of what was in fact a group of soldiers(my friend was one) modeled on Pinochet death squads.Israel Tv, with IDF Approval, Shows Scenes of Clandestine War on Intifada | Jewish Telegraphic Agency
The interesting thing to me and many of my colleagues is it was a waste of time that only satisfied the need for revenge of some in the IDF.

 

[I.P.Freely]

In all seriousness - I find it hard to believe Hamas, as an organization would be behind it because it would seem an incredibly stupid thing to do - they would have to know the repercussions, it's impossible to see a gain for them.

the gain would be the commission of terrorism-----the weapon used to accomplish
the glorious age of Islamic conquest----anyone interested in the value of terrorism,
should read the koran

It looks like, from what I've read - that the boys were kidnapped and killed almost immediately - no holding as hostage, nothing. They were chosen because they were Jewish, an easy target and murdered. That doesn't sound like Hamas - reagardless of people think, they are not stupid people or they would not have gotten as far as they have. Right now, they seem to be striving for some sort of "political legitimacy" in the international arena. An action such as this would turn much of the international community against them.

I just don't see a gain. On the other hand - being able to pin it on Hamas, rather than a couple of individuials or (as I read in one account) a small previously unknown group - would be a gain for Israel, who opposed the unity government and wants Abbas to break it.

as I said from the start the victims were probably taken by a few criminal opportunists for resale to the highest bidder. They then realized the would be hunted by the IDF etc and Hammas etc and fled without luggage.

 

[I.P.Freely]

This sums it up for me
*Advertisement

 

[fanger]

care to name those streets?

care to name those squares?

Yitzhak Shamir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Menachem Begin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Theres two

 

[Ropey]

^ Gotcha

This sums it up for me.

Just Our Swords

 

[Phoenall]

It's official: Bodies of the three teens were found in Hebron, 5 O'clock Israel time, by 3 Yeshiva boys.

The bodies were found in a well, in Halhul village, near Hebron. The families are informed.

- IDF forces are on the hunt to locate the kidnappers, raids on houses in Hebron.

- Palestinian Hamas in Gaza fear for the consqeuences of the kidnapping and killing of the boys.

- Jews in Hebron and Yitzhar call for price tag and revenge.

So does this mean about 100 or so innocent Palestinians are now going to have to die?
Quo vadis?

INNOCENT when they were singing and dancing about the news of the kidnappings. The only innocent ones are those not yet born and brainwashed into believing the filth of islam.

lets make it the 1 million so they get the message loud and clear.

 

[Statistikhengst]

I cannot advocate for mass-murder nor can I advocate for genocide.

But the Torah does not prohibit the destruction of an empty city.

I offer a simple solution:

give the palis 72 hours to completely evacuate Gaza city. Then carpet bomb it it until it looks like Rotterdam 1940 and then some. Those who chose to stay? Their own damned fault. And where they have to flee to? I don't give a ****.