"atlas shrugged" will change the face of american politics

[Big Fitz]

Ayn Rand's view of Ronald Reagan:

In 1976, as Burns reports, she urged readers to oppose his campaign for president. "I urge you, as emphatically as I can, not to support the candidacy of Ronald Reagan," she wrote, calling him a conservative in "the worst sense of the word," because he backed a mixed economy and opposed abortion rights.

hmmm...

Ed Kilgore for Democracy Journal: In Galt They Trust

From the about part in your link

The mission of Democracy is to build a vibrant and vital progressivism for the twenty-first century that builds on the movement’s proud history, is true to its central values, and is relevant to present times.

Democracy and progressivism two words that stand out. I call your source a load of bullshit.

preeeetty much.

 

[MaggieMae]

one reason not that many people distance themselves from jake the flake, is they think he know's, but he really doesn't have a working knowledge of the subject (much like our president). you can't just stand on the shoulder's of those who have done the work (jurrasic park).





Quote: Originally Posted by choice
it's so great that people like fitz and boedicca and political chic now rule the USMB

So using a quote from Jurrasic Park is supposed to make you look smart?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Invasion of the Body Snatchers had a political message in it? I haven't seen the newer version, but I've seen the original several times, and I don't recall any. I thought they were just the victims of an alien invasion.

[Currently, I'm trying to follow "The Event," which had somewhat of a political message to it last season, but there's been a plot twist this year, so I don't think it's going there. Looks like those "aliens" might not be aliens at all, but the people who once inhabited earth and were shipped to outer space for some reason years ago.]

I love science fiction, if it has a credible plot, and I'm not usually looking for a political message in any of it.

Which way does you political compass point?

 

[MaggieMae]

The New World Order is not a conspiracy Bush SR. has mentioned it a few times. The U.N. will be the means that will make it happen. The concept will be played like this to stop war the world must be unified and have one world law, with one leadership head. Why do you think the U.S. government is tring to destory the dollar?

The "New World Order" as envisioned by the current batch of loons can be found in Glenn Beck's bullshit. A Caliphate is a comin' soon to America (AND THE WORLD!!!), supported by the monied interests of George Soros and evil Communists posing as Washington liberal elites in partnership with the nasty physical destruction capabilities of Islamic terror organizations. A secret NWO is being established as we speak.

Which came first George Bush SR or Glenn Beck?

I really do get tired of trying to explain things that should be obvious. Bush41's vision of a New World Order had to do with global peace and cooperation. Beck's vision is one of destruction by evil people and acceptance by ignorant masses.

Here's the text of Bush's speech, with the excerpt describing what he meant. Of course you could have looked that up yourself before making a fool of yourself. Again.

War On Americans? | 'Toward a New World Order' A transcript of the speech by George Herbert Walker Bush September 11, 1990

We stand today at a unique and extraordinary moment. The crisis in the Persian Gulf, as grave as it is, also offers a rare opportunity to move toward an historic period of cooperation. Out of these troubled times, our fifth objective -- a new world order -- can emerge: a new era -- freer from the threat of terror, stronger in the pursuit of justice, and more secure in the quest for peace. An era in which the nations of the world, East and West, North and South, can prosper and live in harmony. A hundred generations have searched for this elusive path to peace, while a thousand wars raged across the span of human endeavor. Today that new world is struggling to be born, a world quite different from the one we've known. A world where the rule of law supplants the rule of the jungle. A world in which nations recognize the shared responsibility for freedom and justice. A world where the strong respect the rights of the weak. This is the vision that I shared with President Gorbachev in Helsinki. He and other leaders from Europe, the Gulf, and around the world understand that how we manage this crisis today could shape the future for generations to come.

 

[MaggieMae]

I'm still waiting for them to present something credible, care to make a suggestion?

You seem to have an inordinate amount of time to spend on a message board, so why don't you go back through them all and see for yourself? Obviously, you didn't bother to read anything I said previously, so I'm not about to go searching for you. It could be, like any good con, you ignore any thoughtful conversation because you're far more interested in liberal bashing which must give you some sense of faux power.

No I don't have the time but you made the statement. Waiting on some suggestions.

Too bad. I'm not going to repeat myself.

 

[editec]

Invasion of the Body Snatchers had a political message in it? I haven't seen the newer version, but I've seen the original several times, and I don't recall any. I thought they were just the victims of an alien invasion.

[Currently, I'm trying to follow "The Event," which had somewhat of a political message to it last season, but there's been a plot twist this year, so I don't think it's going there. Looks like those "aliens" might not be aliens at all, but the people who once inhabited earth and were shipped to outer space for some reason years ago.]

I love science fiction, if it has a credible plot, and I'm not usually looking for a political message in any of it.

Invasion of the Body snatchers (both versions) can be construed as a political metaphor.

The original could be construed as a commentary on US fears that crypto-communists were taking over society.

The 1970's version I personally construed as a metaphor about YUPPIES taking over society. (and it all came true, too, much to this nation's shame)

I've actually seen that picture at least ten times, since, in the late 70s I used to drink in a bar that showed it a couple times a day for about a week.

Insinuating social commentary metphors is rather common in literature and film.

For example, Animal Farm isn't entirely just about farm animals.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

The "New World Order" as envisioned by the current batch of loons can be found in Glenn Beck's bullshit. A Caliphate is a comin' soon to America (AND THE WORLD!!!), supported by the monied interests of George Soros and evil Communists posing as Washington liberal elites in partnership with the nasty physical destruction capabilities of Islamic terror organizations. A secret NWO is being established as we speak.

Which came first George Bush SR or Glenn Beck?

I really do get tired of trying to explain things that should be obvious. Bush41's vision of a New World Order had to do with global peace and cooperation. Beck's vision is one of destruction by evil people and acceptance by ignorant masses.

Here's the text of Bush's speech, with the excerpt describing what he meant. Of course you could have looked that up yourself before making a fool of yourself. Again.

War On Americans? | 'Toward a New World Order' A transcript of the speech by George Herbert Walker Bush September 11, 1990

We stand today at a unique and extraordinary moment. The crisis in the Persian Gulf, as grave as it is, also offers a rare opportunity to move toward an historic period of cooperation. Out of these troubled times, our fifth objective -- a new world order -- can emerge: a new era -- freer from the threat of terror, stronger in the pursuit of justice, and more secure in the quest for peace. An era in which the nations of the world, East and West, North and South, can prosper and live in harmony. A hundred generations have searched for this elusive path to peace, while a thousand wars raged across the span of human endeavor. Today that new world is struggling to be born, a world quite different from the one we've known. A world where the rule of law supplants the rule of the jungle. A world in which nations recognize the shared responsibility for freedom and justice. A world where the strong respect the rights of the weak. This is the vision that I shared with President Gorbachev in Helsinki. He and other leaders from Europe, the Gulf, and around the world understand that how we manage this crisis today could shape the future for generations to come.

Bush41's vision of a New World Order had to do with global peace and cooperation.

I think I covered that part in my earlier reply how did you miss it?

The concept will be played like this to stop war the world must be unified and have one world law, with one leadership head.

 

[MaggieMae]

Ayn Rand's view of Ronald Reagan:

In 1976, as Burns reports, she urged readers to oppose his campaign for president. "I urge you, as emphatically as I can, not to support the candidacy of Ronald Reagan," she wrote, calling him a conservative in "the worst sense of the word," because he backed a mixed economy and opposed abortion rights.

hmmm...

Ed Kilgore for Democracy Journal: In Galt They Trust

From the about part in your link

The mission of Democracy is to build a vibrant and vital progressivism for the twenty-first century that builds on the movement’s proud history, is true to its central values, and is relevant to present times.

Democracy and progressivism two words that stand out. I call your source a load of bullshit.

Something wrong with your Google finger? It's an accurate quote, inserted many times in many articles. Here's one from a right-wing blogger, who expands Rand's distaste not only for Reagan but Greenspan and Bush41.

AriArmstrong.com: Reading Anne Heller on Ayn Rand

What about Reagan, who defined the politics of the 1980s? Rand wrote, "I urge you, as emphatically as I can, not to support the candidacy of Ronald Reagan." Of course Reagan did nominate Greenspan, Rand's "disciple," to the Fed, an institution which Rand opposed. George H. W. Bush, who rounded out the '80s, was an even worse disaster by Rand's standards.

 

[washamericom]

one reason not that many people distance themselves from jake the flake, is they think he know's, but he really doesn't have a working knowledge of the subject (much like our president). you can't just stand on the shoulder's of those who have done the work (jurrasic park).





Quote: Originally Posted by choice
it's so great that people like fitz and boedicca and political chic now rule the USMB

So using a quote from Jurrasic Park is supposed to make you look smart?

yes, it was on last night. what would be an "ordinate" amount of time to spend here ?, cause if there are rules about that i'll get right in line behind you and starkey and nyc, i want to be fair practiced with the cyberspace

 

[MaggieMae]

The New World Order is not a conspiracy Bush SR. has mentioned it a few times. The U.N. will be the means that will make it happen. The concept will be played like this to stop war the world must be unified and have one world law, with one leadership head. Why do you think the U.S. government is tring to destory the dollar?

The "New World Order" as envisioned by the current batch of loons can be found in Glenn Beck's bullshit. A Caliphate is a comin' soon to America (AND THE WORLD!!!), supported by the monied interests of George Soros and evil Communists posing as Washington liberal elites in partnership with the nasty physical destruction capabilities of Islamic terror organizations. A secret NWO is being established as we speak.

What's the one issue liberals and radical muslims agree on?

Hatred for the Jew and the west. Strange bedfellows indeed.

I don't hate Jews and I hardly hate the west? WTF? Wow your brain kicked in, now it's gone again. Sad.

 

[MaggieMae]

Invasion of the Body Snatchers had a political message in it? I haven't seen the newer version, but I've seen the original several times, and I don't recall any. I thought they were just the victims of an alien invasion.

[Currently, I'm trying to follow "The Event," which had somewhat of a political message to it last season, but there's been a plot twist this year, so I don't think it's going there. Looks like those "aliens" might not be aliens at all, but the people who once inhabited earth and were shipped to outer space for some reason years ago.]

I love science fiction, if it has a credible plot, and I'm not usually looking for a political message in any of it.

Which way does you political compass point?

Right down the center, but it depends on what the most important problem is at the time. I could become a neocon real easy if there were some legitimate threat to the survival of America, but I think the nation has concentrated far too long on the problems of foreign countries and not nearly enough on our own domestic issues. It's why both the "welfare state" and the "corporate state" has gotten out of hand. Lawmakers haven't been paying enough attention, and now the problems within the system are enormous. When the Democrats try to fix things, they just get shouted down as big spenders, but in my opinion, just like in private businesses, it takes retooling and reinvestment in order to get the product to operate correctly in a different buyer's market. Everyone wants to be richer, but what's the point of owning a $100K automobile when the highways are all broken and potholed? What's the point of owning a starter castle with the latest plumbing installed in three bathrooms when the sewers beneath are crumbling because they haven't been replaced in 100 years? Get my gist?

 

[MaggieMae]

Invasion of the Body Snatchers had a political message in it? I haven't seen the newer version, but I've seen the original several times, and I don't recall any. I thought they were just the victims of an alien invasion.

[Currently, I'm trying to follow "The Event," which had somewhat of a political message to it last season, but there's been a plot twist this year, so I don't think it's going there. Looks like those "aliens" might not be aliens at all, but the people who once inhabited earth and were shipped to outer space for some reason years ago.]

I love science fiction, if it has a credible plot, and I'm not usually looking for a political message in any of it.

Invasion of the Body snatchers (both versions) can be construed as a political metaphor.

The original could be construed as a commentary on US fears that crypto-communists were taking over society.

The 1970's version I personally construed as a metaphor about YUPPIES taking over society. (and it all came true, too, much to this nation's shame)

I've actually seen that picture at least ten times, since, in the late 70s I used to drink in a bar that showed it a couple times a day for about a week.

Insinuating social commentary metphors is rather common in literature and film.

For example, Animal Farm isn't entirely just about farm animals.

I guess I'll have to see it again. However, why should social commentary related to the time be omitted? If it is, it then becomes just fantasy.

Animal Farm was obviously political.

 

[washamericom]

It's well known that many rightwing christians assert that the U.S. is a Christian nation.

the u.s. is a christian nation... it's like ninety something percent.
i was waiting for someone to mention "new world order". not the rule of the jungle.

Ayn Rand believed in the law of the jungle being supreme.

btw, % of Christians is not what those people mean when they call this a Christian nation.

here's an "objective" (yes it's a wordplay) piece i found, i'm still looking for some more stuff on the jungle, something about you can have bicycles and porsches, but not at the same time. if it's not a porch it's a mercedes.

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/politics/pg0040.html

is china a christian nation, spain, columbia, cuba, iran ?

also:: For example, Animal Farm isn't entirely just about farm animals. :: it's not ?? how 'bout jurassic park, cause it was just on last night...?

 

[MaggieMae]

Which came first George Bush SR or Glenn Beck?

I really do get tired of trying to explain things that should be obvious. Bush41's vision of a New World Order had to do with global peace and cooperation. Beck's vision is one of destruction by evil people and acceptance by ignorant masses.

Here's the text of Bush's speech, with the excerpt describing what he meant. Of course you could have looked that up yourself before making a fool of yourself. Again.

War On Americans? | 'Toward a New World Order' A transcript of the speech by George Herbert Walker Bush September 11, 1990

Bush41's vision of a New World Order had to do with global peace and cooperation.

I think I covered that part in my earlier reply how did you miss it?

The concept will be played like this to stop war the world must be unified and have one world law, with one leadership head.

That is NOT what Bush said, nor implied. Read it again. Unification among world leaders does not mean one world LAW. He wasn't stupid enough to believe that would happen except in...movies.

 

[MarcATL]

I suggest everyone read this link before seeing the movie or reading Ayn Rand; this link is short, somewhat difficult, but provides a background for framing an opinion and or voting based on a work of art or one author's subjective world view.

Ethics [Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy]

Start at the top of the link, I don't know why when opened the link goes to the middle of the article.

It's because of the "hash tag." You know, the number sign.

Here's the full link: Ethics [Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy]

 

[Samson]

I suggest everyone read this link before seeing the movie or reading Ayn Rand; this link is short, somewhat difficult, but provides a background for framing an opinion and or voting based on a work of art or one author's subjective world view.

Ethics*[Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy]

Start at the top of the link, I don't know why when opened the link goes to the middle of the article.

It's because of the "hash tag." You know, the number sign.

Here's the full link: Ethics*[Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy]

Marc, I opened the link, scaned it, and think I died, just a little, from boredom.

 

[Big Fitz]

The "New World Order" as envisioned by the current batch of loons can be found in Glenn Beck's bullshit. A Caliphate is a comin' soon to America (AND THE WORLD!!!), supported by the monied interests of George Soros and evil Communists posing as Washington liberal elites in partnership with the nasty physical destruction capabilities of Islamic terror organizations. A secret NWO is being established as we speak.

What's the one issue liberals and radical muslims agree on?

Hatred for the Jew and the west. Strange bedfellows indeed.

I don't hate Jews and I hardly hate the west? WTF? Wow your brain kicked in, now it's gone again. Sad.

Well that makes you atypical when you get down to it Maggie. I've met more than a few liberals who hate the western (as typified by American, pre-multiculturalism, life) culture, and a few who blame Jews for the world's ills. I've seen a lot of them on boards like this one too.

 

[Big Fitz]

Invasion of the Body Snatchers had a political message in it? I haven't seen the newer version, but I've seen the original several times, and I don't recall any. I thought they were just the victims of an alien invasion.

[Currently, I'm trying to follow "The Event," which had somewhat of a political message to it last season, but there's been a plot twist this year, so I don't think it's going there. Looks like those "aliens" might not be aliens at all, but the people who once inhabited earth and were shipped to outer space for some reason years ago.]

I love science fiction, if it has a credible plot, and I'm not usually looking for a political message in any of it.

Watch the original 1950's version with Kevin McCarthy. It's an allegory for the red scare. Just like can be found in the 1950's War of the Worlds. The best part is you CAN watch it without seeing the allegories... but then again, you don't watch it in college as a study of science fiction and it's ramification on society like I did. Talk about your easy class, but very interesting what symbolism can work it's way in.

Oh how could I also forget "The Thing", both the original and John Carpenter's remake.

 

[Kalam]

[
Tell me, do you feel the same way about the following works:

Fahrenheit 451
Brave New World
1984
A Handmaid's Tale
Soylant Green
Planet of the Apes
A Clockwork Orange
Invasion of the Body Snatchers
War of the Worlds
The Day The Earth Stood Still
Logan's Run
Metropolis
Demolition Man
The Dark Knight
Blade Runner
Avatar
The Day After Tomorrow
Minority Report

IIRC there are film versions of all these works. All of them have a basic political agenda behind them in various forms of camouflage.

If you haven't seen these films, you should find them. Some are very good (Blade Runner, Demolition Man, The Dark Knight), others are pretty lousy (A Handmaid's Tale, The Day After Tomorrow, Soylant Green), but all are interesting in how they express political philosophy and illustrate it in science fiction for mass consumption. Shit, why, for instance is money never part of Star Trek? Why is everyone working? Has culture hit some eudamonic phase of life? Hard to believe really and part of why I have a hard time enjoying the universe very much.

BTW, I view Atlas Shrugged as a Science Fiction work because of some small aspects of the technological devices in it, the time isn't defined well, plus the style of writing was reminiscent of classical science fiction in many ways.

IMO, most of those works use structures and devices like an innovative writing style (A Clockwork Orange), a well-constructed allegory (Nineteen Eighty-Four, Animal Farm), or a plot ostensibly unrelated to real politics (Dark Knight, Blade Runner) to provide unobtrusive and somewhat vague social commentary that leaves room for reader interpretation and allows the story to remain enjoyable to a wide audience. Rand's works of fiction use one-dimensional characters and thin, insipid plots to exposit her ideology without a hint of subtlety or depth. Fans of her work who don't sympathize with her beliefs seem to be few and far between and I think the reason for that is pretty obvious. Who picks up a work of science fiction and wants to slog through more than 1,000 pages of an author bluntly and repetitively dogmatizing her political views? Nothing I've read of hers really appeals to me. Anthem was decent because she managed to keep it concise.

 

[Big Fitz]

[
Tell me, do you feel the same way about the following works:

Fahrenheit 451
Brave New World
1984
A Handmaid's Tale
Soylant Green
Planet of the Apes
A Clockwork Orange
Invasion of the Body Snatchers
War of the Worlds
The Day The Earth Stood Still
Logan's Run
Metropolis
Demolition Man
The Dark Knight
Blade Runner
Avatar
The Day After Tomorrow
Minority Report

IIRC there are film versions of all these works. All of them have a basic political agenda behind them in various forms of camouflage.

If you haven't seen these films, you should find them. Some are very good (Blade Runner, Demolition Man, The Dark Knight), others are pretty lousy (A Handmaid's Tale, The Day After Tomorrow, Soylant Green), but all are interesting in how they express political philosophy and illustrate it in science fiction for mass consumption. Shit, why, for instance is money never part of Star Trek? Why is everyone working? Has culture hit some eudamonic phase of life? Hard to believe really and part of why I have a hard time enjoying the universe very much.

BTW, I view Atlas Shrugged as a Science Fiction work because of some small aspects of the technological devices in it, the time isn't defined well, plus the style of writing was reminiscent of classical science fiction in many ways.

IMO, most of those works use structures and devices like an innovative writing style (A Clockwork Orange), a well-constructed allegory (Nineteen Eighty-Four, Animal Farm), or a plot ostensibly unrelated to real politics (Dark Knight, Blade Runner) to provide unobtrusive and somewhat vague social commentary that leaves room for reader interpretation and allows the story to remain enjoyable to a wide audience. Rand's works of fiction use one-dimensional characters and thin, insipid plots to exposit her ideology without a hint of subtlety or depth. Fans of her work who don't sympathize with her beliefs seem to be few and far between and I think the reason for that is pretty obvious. Who picks up a work of science fiction and wants to slog through more than 1,000 pages of an author bluntly and repetitively dogmatizing her political views? Nothing I've read of hers really appeals to me. Anthem was decent because she managed to keep it concise.

You're obviously not a nerd. lol

Oh yeah, "Serenity" is another good one for that list. Very anti-collectivist as well. Slams the nanny state hard in the opening minutes and then proceeds to spend the rest of the movie showing why with one of the best denouements in the last decade of SF movies.

Secondly, it's obvious you don't quite understand why Rand writes in the style she does. It took me a few tries then finally getting through the Fountainhead to figure it out. They're Archetypes. That's why they seem so one-dimensional. They're exemplifying a viewpoint or philosophy. Gail Wynand, Alvah Scarret, Ellsworth Toohey, James Taggart, Peter Keating, Westley Mouch, John Galt, Howard Roark... all archetypes. To twist their tropes would have made the story muddled and block out the message she was trying to get across in an entertaining manner. I know that works for some libs, to read something where everyone's a relativist example of all archetypes leaving you with a muddy pile. It's nice every once in a while to see such clarity on characters. It made them no more predictable in many cases if you had not been clued in to what role they were playing. Your faint praise for Anthem is like saying "I like Haiku because it's short."

But then there are people who don't like Stephen King either because he's a boring formula writer who's character's are nothing more than home spun analogues of color and eventual victims for the big nasty thing in the story coming to kill them all.

So, que sera sera.