Support your assertions.
This would be a nice one to start with:
LuvRPgrl said:
Fact is most States, colonies or commonwealths, however you wish to refer to them, had Legally instituted State sponsored religions. Jefferson was opposed to them, but to make the statement that the founding fathers didnt want religion in govt is easily proven false.
Then prove it--with evidence rather than your wishful assertions unsupported by evidence.
While you catch up on your homework there, realize that there is a distict difference between the status of governemnt established religion prior to the revolution (colony) and after the Declaration Of Independence--most particularly after ratification of the Constitution (state).
Of course, while under English rule, the colonies had "legally instituted state sponsored religions"; you see, once a colony broke with England, the governmental establishment of England's religion was also broken. Post independence, the infrastructure of the crown remained behind, and certainly many of the states retianed the custom of taxation forthe benefit of the established church. What you'll have to demonstrate is that after the respective 13 original state joined the United States, "MOST" (your words) went and established state religions.
Regardless of how you calculate "MOST" in your hopelful search for state established religions (and whetever loose definition for "state established religion"you use), you'll note that having achieved independence after the revolution; after the first 13 states committed themselves to the union in 1788; "MOST" became 1 rather quickly (by 1790), and then none (in 1833), by the time Connecticut's church membership requirement was abolished.
LuvRPgrl said:
In fact, the first amendment is all the proof one really needs.
Really? How so? (FYI, placing "in fact" before an assertion does not make that assertion a "fact.")
LuvRPgrl said:
But we have much more proof than just that.
Produce this "proof."
LuvRPgrl said:
Interestingly enough, while the modern liberal/anti God persons like to use the first amendment as supposed proof that the signers of the Constitution didnt want govt influenced by religion, just the exact opposite is true.
Indeed? But I suppose you'll not offer evidence to support this fanciful assertion either.
Since I actually do my homework, in direct rebuttal to this bullshit notion of yours, I offer you the actual author of the First Amendment:
James Madison said:
"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."
How about them apples?
LuvRPgrl said:
The "Bill of rights" was put into the Constitution for one reason, and one reason only. The signers of the Constitution feared an overly powerful and dominating Central (Federal) government, and they wanted GUARANTEES THAT WOULD OCCUR. Hence, those areas they KNEW the central government would take legal control, were the ones they addressed in the Bill of Rights. And, the ones they listed first, were the ones that they were concerned about the most. The reason they didnt want the Feds getting into establishing a State sponsored religion on the Federal level, was because that would preclude them from being able to do it within their own individual states.
A nice rationalization wrapped in a tin-foil hat. All assertion, no evidence. I think I'll refer to Founding Fathers, rather than you:
John Adams said:
"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses."
AND
". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."
James Madison said:
"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."
Not one word about saving government religion for the states there. Not one, but plenty to the contrary.
The point of protecting U.S. citizens from a state religion at the federal level is exactly the same as the point of protecting citizens from a state religion on the state level--to preserve the right of indivduals to practice their religion. State religions without exception supress other religions by force, and that is precisely one of the very crimes against humanity that the U.S. Revolution was a struggle against.
LuvRPgrl said:
The fact that they addressed that issue first in the COTUS is proof that they were MOST concerned about that issue being left for them to go institute and control in their own states.
Your "fact" is not true. The Bill Of Rights was drafted and ratified last--
after the Constitution was ratified (go ahead and look it up, little Miss DoYourHomework)--and if we are to believe your assertion of "what comes first was what was of greatest concern", then government powers were primary.
LuvRPgrl said:
What most people also dont realize is that the FFathers also didnt consider themselves Americans first. They addressed themselves according to which state they resided in. For example, President Washington considered himself a Virginian. They were extremely, EXTREMELY big on STATES having power and authority except where it was absolutely necessary for the Feds to have the power.
What you are ignoring is that our Founding Fathers considered themselves human beings first; they made rights of human being prime over powers, thus the coercive power of governemnt should be held as close to the individual as possible, but not against him in defiance of human rights--establishing state religions is antithetical to the notions that each of us have a right to our own religion and conscience, the founding fathers knew this, and constitutionally separated the government from religion.
