Assesment of Baker report

[ekrem]

I've been reading through this a couple hours now, so tell me Cavanar, do you think the Baker group was looking to curry Turkey's favor? You see Turkey as someone they are trying to 'kiss up to?'

Not mandatory. But improving relations with Turkey is part of all. Maybe, not first rank, not last rank. But looking to position of USA in region definitely Turkish issue and improving relations being on upper ranks, when USA even is in phase of talking with Axis-of-evil.

This position is further boosted with new faces in Washington.
Maybe you do not like me as a person and reflect that on my country, and when that is the case and you have problems with both, then hard times await you on the forum to participate in undergoing process of coming USA-Turkey springtime.

 

[ekrem]

No--What do you think should be "done" with them and where should they live?

- Al-Qaeda not attacking USA
- States giving not support to Al-Qaeda

USA has no problem with both. If, USA has problems.
So does Turkey. So solution is either not by USA nor by Turkey in reliance to PKK and elements supporting them.

Both Turkey+USA in different cases, but core issue the same (terrorism) adjusting security policy to threats.
Your one-line questions sometimes make me laugh, as you would also laugh when i would write same things about Al-qaeda and states supporting them.
In fact, Mr. Dilloduck, so basic and similar, but anyhow so different.
Makeing war on terrorism not what and how it should be fought.
My terrorist your terrorist game played under Rumsfeld clique. But solution to it is showing on the horizon.

 

[dilloduck]

- Al-Qaeda not attacking USA
- States giving not support to Al-Qaeda

USA has no problem with both. If, USA has problems.
So does Turkey. So solution is either not by USA nor by Turkey in reliance to PKK and elements supporting them.

Both Turkey in different cases, but core issue the same (terrorism) adjusting security policy to threats.
Your one-line questions sometimes make me laugh, as you would also laugh when i would write same things about Al-qaeda and states supporting them.
In fact, Mr. Dilloduck, so basic and similar, but anyhow so different.

I'm glad I hit your funnybone there, Mr. Turk but you still haven't answered my basic one-line question. Are you allowed to have your own thoughts in Turkey? What do you want the Kurds to do---disappear?

 

[Annie]

Not mandatory. But improving relations with Turkey is part of all. Maybe, not first rank, not last rank. But looking to position of USA in region definitely Turkish issue and improving relations being on upper ranks, when USA even is in phase of talking with Axis-of-evil.

This position is further boosted with new faces in Washington.
Maybe you do not like me as a person and reflect that on my country, and when that is the case and you have problems with both, then hard times await you on the forum to participate in undergoing process of coming USA-Turkey springtime.

So does the US need to kiss up to Turkey, to avoid regional annhilation? Is Turkey the leader of the Mideast?

 

[ekrem]

I'm glad I hit your funnybone there, Mr. Turk but you still haven't answered my basic one-line question. Are you allowed to have your own thoughts in Turkey? What do you want the Kurds to do---disappear?

Please read it, Mr Dilloduck allthough you might not like the person
----------------------------------------------------


The chairman of the Democratic National Committee, Howard Dean argues that the real reason behind the increasing of the PKK terrorism is the US' policies in Iraq. Howard further said that Turkey is one of the US' most important allies.


The following is taken from Mr. Dean's interview to the American Fox News Sunday With Chris Wallace (12 November 2006):

DEAN: "... the worst thing that can happen — and this may well be the outcome — is that Turkish troops end up in Kurdistan, because the Kurds are fomenting terrorist violence in eastern Turkey. That is a real possibility. The PKK, which is the terrorist organization, the Kurdish terrorist organization, now is operating out of Kurdistan. That's a very serious problem.

If we hadn't gone into Iraq, that wouldn't be a serious problem. Turkey is one of our most important allies. There are all kinds of unforeseen consequences to this policy. Our problem is we've got to cut our losses and figure out how we're going to get our folks out and still defend the United States of America."

http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=40963

You, Dilloduck, disobey crucial things of how you approach whole issue.
My answers i can give you emerge from what the situation is and i am in full accordance with Turkish army.

In talks with U.S. officials, the Turkish military emphasizes that the PKK and Iraqi Kurds are "one and the same."

One concrete example is a recent one-hour speech by Murat Karayılan, a top PKK leader, on a television station controlled by the Kurdistan Democratic Party of Iraqi Kurdish leader Massoud Barzani.

Turkey also says that the PKK has taken over some weapons donated by U.S. forces to Iraqi Kurds.

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=59560
If situation would not be so, neither Turkish army nor I would think even about to have such position.
If the situation was not so, i might give you different answers, but you want only to generalize and put me in a corner.

P.S: one more buddy, Dean

 

[ekrem]

So does the US need to kiss up to Turkey, to avoid regional annhilation? Is Turkey the leader of the Mideast?

Yes, Turkey is leader of Middle East. We can crush all our Mid-East neighbours.
We are Nato-Standard. TSK can crush any Mid-East neighbour maybe in exception to Israel as there are atomic bombs and other factors.
Is this what you wanted to hear?
If you would know the region, you would have not asked.

Turkey is not only part to solution in Iraq, but also in Afghanistan and all other conflicts which may rise in future and definately will come.
So being good with Turkey, as new faces in Washington, has advantages, Ms. Kathianne.

Maybe you give a shit about Turkey, like GunnyL compareing Turkey to shitness of France, but France does not boarder Iraq, Syria, Iran and French soldiers do not walk without bullet-proof vests in Afghnistan like TSK soldiers do, nothing happeing to them.

 

[ekrem]

I do not talk out of baseless, here you will see:

http://www.strategypage.com/fyeo/howtomakewar/databases/armies/e.asp







.

 

[Annie]

Yes, Turkey is leader of Middle East. We can crush all our Mid-East neighbours.
We are Nato-Standard. TSK can crush any Mid-East neighbour maybe in exception to Israel as there are atomic bombs and other factors.
Is this what you wanted to hear?
If you would know the region, you would have not asked.

Turkey is not only part to solution in Iraq, but also in Afghanistan and all other conflicts which may rise in future and definately will come.
So being good with Turkey, as new faces in Washington, has advantages, Ms. Kathianne.

Maybe you give a shit about Turkey, like GunnyL compareing Turkey to shitness of France, but France does not boarder Iraq, Syria, Iran and French soldiers do not walk without bullet-proof vests in Afghnistan like TSK soldiers do, nothing happeing to them.

So Turkey, if the need arose, could 'crush' Iran and Saudi Arabia?

 

[ekrem]

So Turkey, if the need arose, could 'crush' Iran and Saudi Arabia?

No. Turkish airforce can not reach Saudi-Arabia physically.

Source: Austrian Army


But Our navy consisting of
- 14 subs
- 27 fregates
http://www.bmlv.gv.at/truppendienst/milint/td_milint-laenderinfo.php?id_c=116&table_id=5

will sink

Saudi Arabian
- 7 fregates
- 6 corvettes.
http://www.bmlv.gv.at/truppendienst/milint/td_milint-laenderinfo.php?id_c=69&table_id=5



To Iran, our Airforce can reach and would make Tehran a parking lot with over 240 F-16, biggest F-16 force with USA and Israel. Turkey produceing F-16 locally in Kayseri.

 

[dilloduck]

Please read it, Mr Dilloduck allthough you might not like the person
----------------------------------------------------


The chairman of the Democratic National Committee, Howard Dean argues that the real reason behind the increasing of the PKK terrorism is the US' policies in Iraq. Howard further said that Turkey is one of the US' most important allies.


The following is taken from Mr. Dean's interview to the American Fox News Sunday With Chris Wallace (12 November 2006):

DEAN: "... the worst thing that can happen — and this may well be the outcome — is that Turkish troops end up in Kurdistan, because the Kurds are fomenting terrorist violence in eastern Turkey. That is a real possibility. The PKK, which is the terrorist organization, the Kurdish terrorist organization, now is operating out of Kurdistan. That's a very serious problem.

If we hadn't gone into Iraq, that wouldn't be a serious problem. Turkey is one of our most important allies. There are all kinds of unforeseen consequences to this policy. Our problem is we've got to cut our losses and figure out how we're going to get our folks out and still defend the United States of America."

http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=40963

You, Dilloduck, disobey crucial things of how you approach whole issue.
My answers i can give you emerge from what the situation is and i am in full accordance with Turkish army.


http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=59560
If situation would not be so, neither Turkish army nor I would think even about to have such position.
If the situation was not so, i might give you different answers, but you want only to generalize and put me in a corner.

P.S: one more buddy, Dean

No--I'm trying to be very specific and see if you have the courage to answer an easy question. In your opinion, what should be does with the Kurds. I'm beginning to think you hope they disappear or that the world will think they deserve to be massacred.

 

[ekrem]

No--I'm trying to be very specific and see if you have the courage to answer an easy question. In your opinion, what should be does with the Kurds. I'm beginning to think you hope they disappear or that the world will think they deserve to be massacred.

Turkish soldier killed, 11 others injured in land mine explosion in southeast Turkey
The Associated Press

Published: December 9, 2006

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/12/09/europe/EU_GEN_Turkey_Kurds.php


Turkish army blames outlawed PKK for helicopter crash
font size

The Turkish army said Friday that a remote-controlled explosive detonated by the outlawed Kurdish Workers' Party caused Thursday's military helicopter crash in the southeastern province of Bingol.
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200612/09/eng20061209_330320.html


So it is not us makeing trouble.

 

[Gunny]

Everyone hates the Kurds ? They are doomed to be slaves in northern Iraq ?
I'm asking questions--I feel no special sympathy for them nor do I hold any special hostility towars them. I'm just trying to educate myself.

Good luck getting any education from SuperTurk that isn't 100% biased for Turkey and against anyone that doesn't want what he feels is best for Turkey. He hasn't done anything so far but duck and dodge the question. A truthful answer reveals who and what this guy is really all about.

The fact that he agrees with Baker's "Plan for Appeasement" says enough as it is.

 

[Gunny]

Please read it, Mr Dilloduck allthough you might not like the person
----------------------------------------------------


The chairman of the Democratic National Committee, Howard Dean argues that the real reason behind the increasing of the PKK terrorism is the US' policies in Iraq. Howard further said that Turkey is one of the US' most important allies.


The following is taken from Mr. Dean's interview to the American Fox News Sunday With Chris Wallace (12 November 2006):

DEAN: "... the worst thing that can happen — and this may well be the outcome — is that Turkish troops end up in Kurdistan, because the Kurds are fomenting terrorist violence in eastern Turkey. That is a real possibility. The PKK, which is the terrorist organization, the Kurdish terrorist organization, now is operating out of Kurdistan. That's a very serious problem.

If we hadn't gone into Iraq, that wouldn't be a serious problem. Turkey is one of our most important allies. There are all kinds of unforeseen consequences to this policy. Our problem is we've got to cut our losses and figure out how we're going to get our folks out and still defend the United States of America."

http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=40963

You, Dilloduck, disobey crucial things of how you approach whole issue.
My answers i can give you emerge from what the situation is and i am in full accordance with Turkish army.


http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=59560
If situation would not be so, neither Turkish army nor I would think even about to have such position.
If the situation was not so, i might give you different answers, but you want only to generalize and put me in a corner.

P.S: one more buddy, Dean

You're quoting Howard Dean as the basis of your argument? GMAFB. He's an idiot. How is trying to get a straight answer out of you trying to put you in a corner?

Why don't you quit tapdancing around the question and just spit the truth out? You, just as most Turks, would love nothing better than to see the Kurds wiped off the face of the Earth. You're no better than the rest of your genocidal ilk over there fighting over your little sandbox.

The fact that you or anyone thinks Turkey is important to the US is as antiquated an ideal as the one of appeasement Baker's currently trying to push. Cold War's over dude. Don't need you nor your third-rate country anymore. Anyone who thinks we do is living in the past.

 

[Gunny]

Yes, Turkey is leader of Middle East. We can crush all our Mid-East neighbours.
We are Nato-Standard. TSK can crush any Mid-East neighbour maybe in exception to Israel as there are atomic bombs and other factors.
Is this what you wanted to hear?
If you would know the region, you would have not asked.

Turkey is not only part to solution in Iraq, but also in Afghanistan and all other conflicts which may rise in future and definately will come.
So being good with Turkey, as new faces in Washington, has advantages, Ms. Kathianne.

Maybe you give a shit about Turkey, like GunnyL compareing Turkey to shitness of France, but France does not boarder Iraq, Syria, Iran and French soldiers do not walk without bullet-proof vests in Afghnistan like TSK soldiers do, nothing happeing to them.

Dude, lay off the koolaid. I'm REAL up on the region, and Yurkey is just another Middle Eastern Nation with an overinflated idea of what it is and capable of doing. Saddam Hussein had the 5th largest, modernized army in the world. Took us two weeks to completely rout it.

We'll see if you're so full of yourself when Iran gets around to setting its sights on your pitiful little piece of turf.

 

[Gunny]

Turkish soldier killed, 11 others injured in land mine explosion in southeast Turkey
The Associated Press

Published: December 9, 2006

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/12/09/europe/EU_GEN_Turkey_Kurds.php


Turkish army blames outlawed PKK for helicopter crash
font size

The Turkish army said Friday that a remote-controlled explosive detonated by the outlawed Kurdish Workers' Party caused Thursday's military helicopter crash in the southeastern province of Bingol.
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200612/09/eng20061209_330320.html


So it is not us makeing trouble.

What's this response got to do with answering the question? Dillo keeps asking about the fate of Kurds in Iraq and you keep answering with Kurdish terrorist organization within Turkey.

I see your ability to criticize ends where self is concerned. You endlessly criticize the US; yet, you can't even 'fess up to the fact that the only good Kurd to a Turk is a dead one.

 

[ekrem]

Dude, lay off the koolaid. I'm REAL up on the region, and Yurkey is just another Middle Eastern Nation with an overinflated idea of what it is and capable of doing. Saddam Hussein had the 5th largest, modernized army in the world. Took us two weeks to completely rout it.

We'll see if you're so full of yourself when Iran gets around to setting its sights on your pitiful little piece of turf.

Saddam was and is a joke.
Maybe you underestimate Turkey, but our neighbors do not.
Remember 1998?

The Turks issued a forceful ultimatum to Syria, and made their determination to use force against Syria explicitly and demonstratively clear. This proved sufficient in order to coerce Damascus into cooperation.

http://www.biu.ac.il/Besa/perspectives19.html

Making interest succeed in Region without one shot fired and Assad senior and junior since then good guys of Turkey. Interests and power proportions cleared.

What should be with Iran? Is it not Iran killing over 250 PKK terrorists the last months and opening Iranian boarder for Turkish soldiers to clean Iranian territory from PKK?

Turkish Army in Iranian territories against the PKK
http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=35166

You GunnyL do not have any objectivity.
There is no need for Turkey to fear any neighbors, from A to Z. We would beat them on battlefield.
That's the truth.

 

[Bullypulpit]

<blockquote>In testimony to the Senate Armed Services Committee on Thursday, Baker had urged Congress to accept most if not all of the report's 79 recommendations as part of a comprehensive strategy and said Bush should do the same.

"I hope we don't treat this as a fruit salad, and say, 'I like this but I don't like that,'" Baker had said.

But White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said the report by the group, led by Baker and former Democratic congressman Lee Hamilton, would be considered along with internal reviews being conducted by the Pentagon, the State Department and the National Security Council. - <a href=http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N08379780.htm>Reuters</a></blockquote>

The upshot of all this is that Chimpy McPresident, and his hard-core chicken-hawk war supporters, are going to stall until their pet review projects come up with their findings and the reject the findings of the ISG as a whole.

Chimpy has no intention of doing anything other than what he has been doing, as evidenced by his speeches since the release of the ISG report. He kee[s doing the same thing over and over again in the expectation of a different outcome...A definition of insanity.

Given his performance in the press conference with Tony Blair, the day of his final mental melt-down can't be far off. We can only hope he's safely locked away and medicated where he doesn't have access to "the Footbal" when that day comes.

 

[Gunny]

Saddam was and is a joke.
Maybe you underestimate Turkey, but our neighbors do not.
Remember 1998?


http://www.biu.ac.il/Besa/perspectives19.html

Making interest succeed in Region without one shot fired and Assad senior and junior since then good guys of Turkey. Interests and power proportions cleared.

What should be with Iran? Is it not Iran killing over 250 PKK terrorists the last months and opening Iranian boarder for Turkish soldiers to clean Iranian territory from PKK?

Turkish Army in Iranian territories against the PKK
http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=35166

You GunnyL do not have any objectivity.
There is no need for Turkey to fear any neighbors, from A to Z. We would beat them on battlefield.
That's the truth.

And his military STILL ranked higher than Turkey's.

Who are you going to beat on WHAT battlefield? Perhaps it has escaped you, but there is no battlefield.

And a man is defined by his enemies. Who did you mention before? Lebanon, Syrai, Jordan, Saudi Arabia? Big whoop. That just means you aren't a player in the big game, buddy. You're a minor league diversion, nothing more.

What would YOU know about objectivity? You sound like a damned pressure car salesman in every thread. Turkey's this ... Turkey's that ...... Give us all a freakin' break, huh?

You can't even come out and answer a simple question. Gene Kelly would be proud of the dance moves you've displayed in this thread.

The fact is, you want the Kurds dead. That makes Turkey just another genocidal, piece-of-shit, third world rat-hole, not something special, nor something to be admired, nor even anything original in the ME. You want to eradicate an ethnic group for not buying off on your brand of bullshit. Seems to be the status quo around your little sandbox.

 

[Gunny]

<blockquote>In testimony to the Senate Armed Services Committee on Thursday, Baker had urged Congress to accept most if not all of the report's 79 recommendations as part of a comprehensive strategy and said Bush should do the same.

"I hope we don't treat this as a fruit salad, and say, 'I like this but I don't like that,'" Baker had said.

But White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said the report by the group, led by Baker and former Democratic congressman Lee Hamilton, would be considered along with internal reviews being conducted by the Pentagon, the State Department and the National Security Council. - <a href=http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N08379780.htm>Reuters</a></blockquote>

The upshot of all this is that Chimpy McPresident, and his hard-core chicken-hawk war supporters, are going to stall until their pet review projects come up with their findings and the reject the findings of the ISG as a whole.

Chimpy has no intention of doing anything other than what he has been doing, as evidenced by his speeches since the release of the ISG report. He kee[s doing the same thing over and over again in the expectation of a different outcome...A definition of insanity.

Given his performance in the press conference with Tony Blair, the day of his final mental melt-down can't be far off. We can only hope he's safely locked away and medicated where he doesn't have access to "the Footbal" when that day comes.

Already getting that conspiratorial shit going for recommendations that shouldn't even be discussed. The best use for that particular list is as a firestarter.

 

[ekrem]

And his military STILL ranked higher than Turkey's.

Who are you going to beat on WHAT battlefield? Perhaps it has escaped you, but there is no battlefield.

And a man is defined by his enemies. Who did you mention before? Lebanon, Syrai, Jordan, Saudi Arabia? Big whoop. That just means you aren't a player in the big game, buddy. You're a minor league diversion, nothing more.

What would YOU know about objectivity? You sound like a damned pressure car salesman in every thread. Turkey's this ... Turkey's that ...... Give us all a freakin' break, huh?

You can't even come out and answer a simple question. Gene Kelly would be proud of the dance moves you've displayed in this thread.

The fact is, you want the Kurds dead. That makes Turkey just another genocidal, piece-of-shit, third world rat-hole, not something special, nor something to be admired, nor even anything original in the ME. You want to eradicate an ethnic group for not buying off on your brand of bullshit. Seems to be the status quo around your little sandbox.

--->
http://www.strategypage.com/fyeo/howtomakewar/databases/armies/e.asp


You have any other questions?