Assesment of Baker report

ekrem

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I think Baker Report is a step in right direction especially with Turkey.
Most crucial concerns of Turkey are mentioned and especially delay of Kerkük referendum (which high-likely is a whole cancellation) is good.

Kurds in Iraq are not happy with the report as you can read here:

Is Baker a Turk or an American?
http://www.kurdmedia.com/articles.asp?id=13697

Kurdish leader rejects Baker-Hamilton report
http://www.kurdmedia.com/news.asp?id=13702

Recommendation Number 26 which calls for a Constitution review is also rejected by Kurds. Although achieving participation of Sunnites in December elections was achieved with same promise, as the Constitution was framed by Kurds and Shiites with completely own interests and not of whole Iraq's interests. Which Sunnites are part of, too.

Recommendation Number 28, to put Oil authority under Bagdad central government and sharing of Oil revenues according to population data is what all neighbours want and is a uniting factor between all factions in Iraq.
Kurds want for example future Ol fields in their authority geography to be wholly used by Kurds themselves. But existing Oil fields in South Iraq for example they want their share from.
So this is illogical and to put all authority of Oil revenues under Bagdad government in every corner of the country is the right step to go.

Recommendation Number 30 to delay Kerkük referendum and to launch a new diplomatic Offensive for Kerkük not to explode is a concession for Turkey as Kirkuk under Kurdish authority is declared casus belli from Turkish Army.
So best is to give Kerkük special status like Bagdad and not include it in any "federal" region.
Whole Recommendation is against Kurdish interests.
So Barzani's threats regarding Kerkük
warning that any delay in deciding the fate of an oil-rich region the Kurds claim would have "grave consequences."
http://www.kurdmedia.com/news.asp?id=13702
are by Baker understood as the lesser evil than consequences from Turkey of such step.

---
---

All in all, Baker report and all other reports which Bush might listen to but which i believe will not change in recommendations about Turkey and its concerns, but more on Iran and Syria is a sign of greater role of Central Bagdad Government.
Time for "almost independent" and "highly autonomous" games or leaving politics to self-egoist factions in Bagdad parliament without fear of consequences for the region or American patience seems to be definitely over.
I sometimes really had the feeling that somebodies behaved like children in candy shops, wanting this and that and USA only watched. A nice revue.
Watched, till situation got out of control and course change is needed by USA.

That all these recommendations do especially not stick with Kurds is understandable but they do not have a choice. Their value with more and more unlikely war against Iran is nearing the zero point.
Those Kurds got really in Megalomania and Iraq being restructured into power mechanism of broader region and lesser USA presence in Iraq will again move power mechanism especially in North Iraq to realistically points. And here Turkey is the giant.

When i think that Barzani is giving PKK presence in North-Iraq, Talabani is threatening Turkey to interfere in Turkey, then this is Megalomania in full reliance to Uncle Sam. Times change, as we see and we Turks have a good memory and some barking elements in our neighborhood will for sure be silenced, not by force as i a long time wished, but by simple power mechanism as USA is getting out of Iraq business (or plans to) not inevtibale leaving the country.
But that does not matter if USA leaves Iraq or not for Turkey, what matters is that USA gives up practize of keeping Turkey consequently out of Iraq now for more then 3 years.
So Turks are back and recommendations of Baker report are to the satisfaction of Turkey. Those gaining space and satisfaction by USA blocking Turkey in Iraq for last 3 years giving them opportunity to move in shoes which are some numbers to big for them, are off course now dissatisfied.
 

dilloduck

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I think Baker Report is a step in right direction especially with Turkey.
Most crucial concerns of Turkey are mentioned and especially delay of Kerkük referendum (which high-likely is a whole cancellation) is good.

Kurds in Iraq are not happy with the report as you can read here:

Is Baker a Turk or an American?
http://www.kurdmedia.com/articles.asp?id=13697

Kurdish leader rejects Baker-Hamilton report
http://www.kurdmedia.com/news.asp?id=13702

Recommendation Number 26 which calls for a Constitution review is also rejected by Kurds. Although achieving participation of Sunnites in December elections was achieved with same promise, as the Constitution was framed by Kurds and Shiites with completely own interests and not of whole Iraq's interests. Which Sunnites are part of, too.

Recommendation Number 28, to put Oil authority under Bagdad central government and sharing of Oil revenues according to population data is what all neighbours want and is a uniting factor between all factions in Iraq.
Kurds want for example future Ol fields in their authority geography to be wholly used by Kurds themselves. But existing Oil fields in South Iraq for example they want their share from.
So this is illogical and to put all authority of Oil revenues under Bagdad government in every corner of the country is the right step to go.

Recommendation Number 30 to delay Kerkük referendum and to launch a new diplomatic Offensive for Kerkük not to explode is a concession for Turkey as Kirkuk under Kurdish authority is declared casus belli from Turkish Army.
So best is to give Kerkük special status like Bagdad and not include it in any "federal" region.
Whole Recommendation is against Kurdish interests.
So Barzani's threats regarding Kerkük

http://www.kurdmedia.com/news.asp?id=13702
are by Baker understood as the lesser evil than consequences from Turkey of such step.

---
---

All in all, Baker report and all other reports which Bush might listen to but which i believe will not change in recommendations about Turkey and its concerns, but more on Iran and Syria is a sign of greater role of Central Bagdad Government.
Time for "almost independent" and "highly autonomous" games or leaving politics to self-egoist factions in Bagdad parliament without fear of consequences for the region or American patience seems to be definitely over.
I sometimes really had the feeling that somebodies behaved like children in candy shops, wanting this and that and USA only watched. A nice revue.
Watched, till situation got out of control and course change is needed by USA.

That all these recommendations do especially not stick with Kurds is understandable but they do not have a choice. Their value with more and more unlikely war against Iran is nearing the zero point.
Those Kurds got really in Megalomania and Iraq being restructured into power mechanism of broader region and lesser USA presence in Iraq will again move power mechanism especially in North Iraq to realistically points. And here Turkey is the giant.

When i think that Barzani is giving PKK presence in North-Iraq, Talabani is threatening Turkey to interfere in Turkey, then this is Megalomania in full reliance to Uncle Sam. Times change, as we see and we Turks have a good memory and some barking elements in our neighborhood will for sure be silenced, not by force as i a long time wished, but by simple power mechanism as USA is getting out of Iraq business (or plans to) not inevtibale leaving the country.
But that does not matter if USA leaves Iraq or not for Turkey, what matters is that USA gives up practize of keeping Turkey consequently out of Iraq now for more then 3 years.
So Turks are back and recommendations of Baker report are to the satisfaction of Turkey. Those gaining space and satisfaction by USA blocking Turkey in Iraq for last 3 years giving them opportunity to move in shoes which are some numbers to big for them, are off course now dissatisfied.
What do Truks want to happen to the Kurds ? Can ya just lay it all out for us?
Should they have a land to call thier own?
 
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ekrem

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Well done, buddy :happy2:


Friends of Turkey, simply by failure of those who objected Turkey, are again on the rise:


Rumsfeld departure ends 'March 1 process' with Turkey:


But Rumsfeld's planned successor, former Central Intelligence Agency Director Robert Gates, belongs to a totally different school. He was a protégée of former president George H. W. Bush, and he has never worked in the president's administration.Gates is part of a "realist" camp in the Republican Party, whose most prominent members include James Baker, secretary of state for the elder Bush, and Brent Scowcroft, the elder Bush's national security adviser. Gates' close relationship with Scowcroft, who also heads the American-Turkish Council, an organization of mainly large U.S. companies doing business with Turkey, could be a plus from the perspective of relations with Ankara, some analysts suggest.

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=58740

Nice to see Gates commanding Pentagon, after Edelman former ambassador to Turkey and knower of Turkey is Pentagon's 3rd position.
Other friends like McCain and others i talked about some weeks ago, if you remember.
 
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ekrem

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What do Truks want to happen to the Kurds ? (...)
It's not us wanting this and that. We only said what we do not want, as Rumfsfeld and Wolfowitz's a-likes did not listened to Turkey and if they listened, they only listened to make exactly the opposite to revenge Turkey.
And off course for example Kurds profited from this, Profit which they now have again to abolish, a bit part of it as they got simply Megalomania.
But i think that Turkey gets closer again to positions makeing clear what it wants, just look the Baker report.

But i would have made the same if i were Barzani or Talabani, as Turkey by USA blocking it was a "lame duck" and they only went for egoistic interests and exploited the situation of bad relations between USA and Turkey.
But harboring terrorists and threaten Turkey as Talabani (how ironic Iraqi president) made, as if they were in a position to do so and Turkey did not reacted because of USA, i can not understand. Things will reorganize by itself as People currently felling on a high steed will soon be again in their real position.
And this position is some levels lower then Turkey.

And i assume and believe that friends of Turkey in Washington think the same way.
When USA is even considering to talk with Iran or Syria, then if such a meeting will take place, USA will have contacted Turkey several times before till there. But this is not subject of media interest, as media is sensation-horny like USA-IRAN-SYRIA, which indeed is a sensation (Axis of evil).
So let things reorganize it self in reliance to Turkey by simply not blocking Turkey in Iraq.
 

dilloduck

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It's not us wanting this and that. We only said what we do not want, as Rumfsfeld and Wolfowitz's a-likes did not listened to Turkey and if they listened, they only listened to make exactly the opposite to revenge Turkey.
And off course for example Kurds profited from this, Profit which they now have again to abolish, a bit part of it as they got simply Megalomania.
But i think that Turkey gets closer again to positions makeing clear what it wants, just look the Baker report.

But i would have made the same if i were Barzani or Talabani, as Turkey by USA blocking it was a "lame duck" and they only went for egoistic interests and exploited the situation of bad relations between USA and Turkey.
But harboring terrorists and threaten Turkey as Talabani (how ironic Iraqi president) made, as if they were in a position to do so and Turkey did not reacted because of USA, i can not understand. Things will reorganize by itself as People currently felling on a high steed will soon be again in their real position.
And this position is some levels lower then Turkey.

And i assume and believe that friends of Turkey in Washington think the same way.
When USA is even considering to talk with Iran or Syria, then if such a meeting will take place, USA will have contacted Turkey several times before till there.
So let things reorganize it self.
My question is what would make the Turks happy regarding the Kurds.
 
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ekrem

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My question is what would make the Turks happy regarding the Kurds.

- Oil control for Bagdad
- Kirkuk not to be given to Kurds
- modifications of constitution for more centralist government in Bagdad rather then "almost independent" a bit "autonomous"
- no harboring of Terrorists in North-Eastern Iraq with their main bases
- cut logistic, finance and weapon support for PKK terrorists

So Baker report is almost that what Turkey wants.
 

dilloduck

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- Oil control for Bagdad
- Kirkuk not to be given to Kurds
- modifications of constitution for more centralist government in Bagdad rather then "almost independent" a bit "autonomous"
- no harboring of Terrorists in North-Eastern Iraq with their main bases
- cut logistic, finance and weapon support for PKK terrorists

So Baker report is almost that what Turkey wants.
In other words---no independence? No country ?
 
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ekrem

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In other words---no independence? No country ?
The world is no open-air bazaar and history is not written in Arabian 1000+1 "fairy tales"-style by Alibaba and his 40 thieves. :

Iraqi Kurds are connected to Iraq and they better keep that connection and step back from other Megalomania, as it might be that they loose everything which they gained by USA invasion into Iraq.
Kurds in Iraq are nothing without USA, what they tell they must do. Figurines.
Kurds are in no position to neglect US demands.
So it is not about Turkey and North-Iraq, but what is actually going on a thing between USA and Turkey.

Actually wjole Megalomania was based on thinking USA will make them independent from Iraq.
But the USA gives a shit about and is itself in deep trouble, and Kurds are the first figurine in chess to be scrapped.

Kurdistan is only present in Karl May fantasy but not in real politics.
(The Wild Men of Kurdistan) (1965)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_May_movies
 

dilloduck

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The world is no open-air bazaar and history is not written in Arabian 1000+1 "fairy tales"-style by Alibaba and his 40 thieves. :

Iraqi Kurds are connected to Iraq and they better keep that connection and step back from other Megalomania, as it might be that they loose everything which they gained by USA invasion into Iraq.
Actually wjole Megalomania was based on thinking USA will make them independent from Iraq.
But the USA gives a shit about and is itself in deep trouble, and Kurds are the first figurine in chess to be scrapped.

Kurdistan is only present in Karl May fantasy but not in real politics.
(The Wild Men of Kurdistan) (1965)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_May_movies
So basically you just hate Kurds cause they want a country next to yours ?
 
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ekrem

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So basically you just hate Kurds cause they want a country next to yours ?
It's not about hate.
It's about what is possible and what not.

And looking Baker commission shows exactly what is possible. Also Israelis became acquainted with what is possible there and what is not possible.
So why this romance about what is not possible?

- Independent Uyghur Xinjian
- independent Sioux
- independent Quebec
- independent Chechnya
- independent Tatarstan
...
...
...
...

And independent "Kurdistan" is also not possible in Iraq.
It will only get independent if foreign powers have interest to play "kurdish card" to start mass killing in the region and stir unrest with different actors, part of them you did not want to have opposite on the battlefield.
 

dilloduck

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It's not about hate.
It's about what is possible and what not.

And looking Baker commission shows exactly what is possible. Also Israelis became acquainted with what is possible there and what is not possible.
So why this romance about what is not possible?

- Independent Uyghur Xinjian
- independent Sioux
- independent Quebec
- independent Chechnya
- independent Tatarstan
...
...
...
...

And independent "Kurdistan" is also not possible in Iraq.
It will only get independent if foreign powers have interest to play "kurdish card" to start mass killing in the region and stir unrest with different actors, part of them you did not want to have opposite on the battlefield.
So are you saying it's not possible because everyone hates each other too much. If Kurdistan just chose to declare the land they they now live on "Kurdistan", will they be attacked by Turkey ?
 
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ekrem

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Maybe, Security council like it was in East Timor had to decide about "kurdistan".
And there are the Russians who have same views as Turkey.

Russia is deeply concerned about the looming threat of Iraq's disintegration and shares the concerns of Turkey on the Kurdish issue, said Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Alexander Grushko in an interview with a group of Turkish journalists in Moscow over the weekend.

Deputy Foreign Minister Grushko underlined that on a growing range of international issues, including Iraq, Iran and the Arab-Israeli conflict; positions of Russia and Turkey have become very close, sometimes even identical. "Our relations are rising to a level of a multifaceted partnership, a goal stipulated by our heads of states in Dec 2004," Grushko stressed.
http://www.thenewanatolian.com/tna-18742.html

It's not only Turkey, it's the whole Arab world plus Russia and Iran resisting disintegration of Iraq.
So this is all theoretical.
What will Kurds do when boarders to all 4 directions are closed, states like Saudi-Arabia and Syria are arming Sunnites and Iran shiites to go after Kurds?

What is when Arab world brings Kurdistan issue via Russia to Security council, to Veto any recognition of that country, like USA did in past with North-Cyprus.
How will such a "country" survive?

From where comes import-export? if by air, which country opens landlocked "Kurdistan" its air-space?
So if you feel sympathy with Kurdistan establish it in Texas, because there is no possibility it to be established in Mid-East.
 
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ekrem

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So i will leave here. But one question, why not happy about improving relations with Turkey. Which, be it Baker or other report will soon follow?
Maybe because the breath of your "horses" in Washington is running out?
Or why?

We have exactly seen where USA went by putting its bet on wrong horses in Mid-East, namely Kurds.
And even I as a foreigner have sometimes charity to USA. How helpless some Americans must feel. No sarcasm...

So Baker+Gates and others are good. Rumfsfeld was not good and because of that he is currently there where he is, leisure speaker on unimportant events.
 

dilloduck

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Maybe, Security council like it was in East Timor had to decide about "kurdistan".
And there are the Russians who have same views as Turkey.



http://www.thenewanatolian.com/tna-18742.html

It's not only Turkey, it's the whole Arab world plus Russia and Iran resisting disintegration of Iraq.
So this is all theoretical.
What will Kurds do when boarders to all 4 directions are closed, states like Saudi-Arabia and Syria are arming Sunnites and Iran shiites to go after Kurds?

What is when Arab world brings Kurdistan issue via Russia to Security council, to Veto any recognition of that country, like USA did in past with North-Cyprus.
How will such a "country" survive?

From where comes import-export? if by air, which country opens landlocked "Kurdistan" its air-space?
So if you feel sympathy with Kurdistan establish it in Texas, because there is no possibility it to be established in Mid-East.
Everyone hates the Kurds ? They are doomed to be slaves in northern Iraq ?
I'm asking questions--I feel no special sympathy for them nor do I hold any special hostility towars them. I'm just trying to educate myself.
 
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ekrem

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Everyone hates the Kurds ? They are doomed to be slaves in northern Iraq ?
I'm asking questions--I feel no special sympathy for them nor do I hold any special hostility towars them. I'm just trying to educate myself.
Time of letting things go as they went the last years is over. I think.
There needs to be order, which USA can not achieve either alone nor Kurds.
So other players approach the scene, Saudi-Arabia and Turkey definately.
Iran and Syria maybe.

What role Kurds will play in this new environment i can not definately say but reading Baker report and seeing new faces in Washington power politics makes me optimistic as Turkish citizen. If this is combined with less Neo-Con influence then this is so and i can not make anything about that here mainly is those supporters. So i judge people not by Neo-Con or Democrat but by its stance on Turkey.
 

dilloduck

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Time of letting things go as they went the last years is over. I think.
There needs to be order, which USA can not achieve either alone nor Kurds.
So other players approach the scene, Saudi-Arabia and Turkey definately.
Iran and Syria maybe.

What role Kurds will play in this new environment i can not definately say but reading Baker report and seeing new faces in Washington power politics makes me optimistic as Turkish citizen. If this is combined with less Neo-Con influence then this is so and i can not make anything about that here mainly is those supporters. So i judge people not by Neo-Con or Democrat but by its stance on Turkey.
I'm not asking you what you think will happen--I want to know what you , as a Turkish citizen, want to happen---to the Kurds.
 
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ekrem

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Is that clear enough?

"The PKK had to stop fighting anyway because of the winter, but the PKK, backed by Iraqi Kurds, are acting as if this were a major political decision, not a move dictated by a practical necessity. Of course, we don't take it seriously," says one official. "The PKK is waiting for the spring to resume its terrorist attacks. And as long as we don't eliminate the PKK's presence in northern Iraq, the problem will remain in place."

In talks with U.S. officials, the Turkish military emphasizes that the PKK and Iraqi Kurds are "one and the same."

One concrete example is a recent one-hour speech by Murat Karayılan, a top PKK leader, on a television station controlled by the Kurdistan Democratic Party of Iraqi Kurdish leader Massoud Barzani.

Turkey also says that the PKK has taken over some weapons donated by U.S. forces to Iraqi Kurds.
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=59560


Some Terrorists and sponsors there needs to be made can-food for dogs.


Kurdish paranoia, but maybe not ;)

Robert Gates is a protégé (read: lapdog) of Scowcroft; Scowcroft is a protégé (read: lapdog) of Kissinger, and what Kurd can forget Kissinger?

If the Democrats don't obstruct the Gates nomination, it will be very enlightening, because by Thursday after the elections, Scowcroft (the friendly face of the pashas and Deep State in America) was already in Ankara, and meeting with just about every "business" organization to finalize the thawing of the US-Turkish relationship. Naturally, he was there as the head of the ATC.
http://rastibini.blogspot.com/


All about dogs without to discredit Mr. very appreciated Gates. Buddy ;) .
Robert Gates, frontline Turkish Kangal in Washington. Good, good. Very good. :cheers2:


Michael Rubin, American Enterprise Institute,
Talabani and Barzani have spent thousands of dollars getting former US ambassadors to say good things about them. I thought that since the Iraqi Kurds have not been able to learn what Washington really thinks about them, it would be a good idea to say it directly to their newspapers. Iraqi Kurds must understand that Washington will absolutely not forget about Ankara, and that for as long as the PKK exists in Northern Iraq, the region will be seen as a terror supporting one.
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/5440734.asp?gid=74
 
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ekrem

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And who was appointed as Anti-PKK coordinator by USA?
Ex-Nato General Joseph Ralston, now being board member of Lockheed Martin.
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/wms/f...cpi=&bs=&es=&fti=&rsbci=15607&rsbi=&jsi=false

Lockheed Martin? Buddy of Turkey ;) with all those F-16 and new 12 Billion Dollar F-35.

Also Ralston is Vize-President of Cohen Group.
http://www.cohengroup.net/about/teammember.cfm?id=6
Other founding member of Cohen Group is Marc Grossman, former ambassador to Turkey, and very very special buddy of Turkey.

Both Lockheed Martin
http://www.americanturkishcouncil.org/data/memberslist/list_g.htm

And

Cohen Group
http://www.americanturkishcouncil.org/data/memberslist/list_b.htm

are financiers and Members of ATC (American Turkish Council). You know, ATC which heads Scowcraft, also special buddy of Turkey explained in Thread before with links;)


Good Times ahead, Dilloduck, with all those buddies (Gates, Scowcroft, Kissinger, Ralston, McCain). Happy with me !
 

dilloduck

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Is that clear enough?



http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=59560


Some Terrorists and sponsors there needs to be made can-food for dogs.


Kurdish paranoia, but maybe not ;)



http://rastibini.blogspot.com/


All about dogs without to discredit Mr. very appreciated Gates. Buddy ;) .
Robert Gates, frontline Turkish Kangal in Washington. Good, good. Very good. :cheers2:


Michael Rubin, American Enterprise Institute,

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/5440734.asp?gid=74
No--What do you think should be "done" with them and where should they live?
 

Annie

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And who was appointed as Anti-PKK coordinator by USA?
Ex-Nato General Joseph Ralston, now being board member of Lockheed Martin.
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/wms/f...cpi=&bs=&es=&fti=&rsbci=15607&rsbi=&jsi=false

Lockheed Martin? Buddy of Turkey ;) with all those F-16 and new 12 Billion Dollar F-35.

Also Ralston is Vize-President of Cohen Group.
http://www.cohengroup.net/about/teammember.cfm?id=6
Other founding member of Cohen Group is Marc Grossman, former ambassador to Turkey, and very very special buddy of Turkey.

Both Lockheed Martin
http://www.americanturkishcouncil.org/data/memberslist/list_g.htm

And

Cohen Group
http://www.americanturkishcouncil.org/data/memberslist/list_b.htm

are financiers and Members of ATC (American Turkish Council). You know, ATC which heads Scowcraft, also special buddy of Turkey ;)


Good Times ahead, Dilloduck. Happy with me !
I've been reading through this a couple hours now, so tell me Cavanar, do you think the Baker group was looking to curry Turkey's favor? You see Turkey as someone they are trying to 'kiss up to?'
 

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