Ask a Gay Guy - Objective Dialog
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Sky Dancer
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I really don't get how what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes is anybody's business but theirs.
As for the religious aspect. If having same sex relations is against your religion, have sex with someone of the opposite sex. Follow your own religious principles but don't expect people out of your religious persuasion to follow you.
Some religions make no distinction between same sex or opposite sex relations. The rules are the same for both. Example? The Buddhist tradition as taught by Thich Nhat Hanh.
"Aware of the suffering caused by sexual misconduct, I vow to cultivate responsibility and learn ways to protect the safety and integrity of individuals, couples, families and society. I am determined not to engage in sexual relations without love and a long-term commitment. To preserve the happiness of myself and others, I am determined to respect my commitments and the commitments of others. I will do everything in my power to protect children from sexual abuse and to prevent couples and families from being broken by sexual misconduct."
http://dharma.ncf.ca/introduction/precepts.html
And part of his commentary on the Third Precept on Sexual Misconduct:
A sexual relationship is an act of communion between body and spirit. This is a very important encounter, not to be done in a casual manner. You know that in your soul there are certain areas -- memories, pain, secrets -- that are private, that you would only share with the person you love and trust the most. You do not open your heart and show it to just anyone. In the imperial city, there is a zone you cannot approach called the forbidden city; only the king and his family are permitted to circulate there. There is a place like that in your soul that you do not allow anyone to approach except the one you trust and love the most.
The same is true of our body. Our bodies have areas that we do not want anyone to touch or approach unless he or she is the one we respect, trust, and love the most. When we are approached casually or carelessly, with an attitude that is less than tender, we feel insulted in our body and soul. Someone who approaches us with respect, tenderness, and utmost care is offering us deep communication, deep communion. It is only in that case that we will not feel hurt, misused, or abused, even a little. This cannot be attained unless there is true love and commitment. Casual sex cannot be described as love. Love is deep, beautiful, and whole.
True love contains respect. In my tradition, husband and wife are expected to respect each other like guests, and when you practice this kind of respect, your love and happiness will continue for a long time. In sexual relationships, respect is one of the most important elements. Sexual communion should be like a rite, a ritual performed in mindfulness with great respect, care, and love. If you are motivated by some desire, that is not love. Desire is not love. Love is something much more responsible. It has care in it.
We have to restore the meaning of the word "love." We have been using it in a careless way. When we say, "I love hamburgers," we are not talking about love. We are talking about our appetite, our desire for hamburgers. We should not dramatize our speech and misuse words like that. We make words like "love" sick that way. We have to make an effort to heal our language by using words carefully. The word "love" is a beautiful word. We have to restore its meaning.
"I am determined not to engage in sexual relations without love and a long-term commitment." If the word "love" is understood in the deepest way, why do we need to say "long-term commitment"? If love is real, we do not need long or short-term commitments, or even a wedding ceremony. True love includes the sense of responsibility, accepting the other person as he is, with all his strengths and weaknesses. If we like only the best things in the person, that is not love. We have to accept his weaknesses and bring our patience, understanding, and energy to help him transform. Love is maitri, the capacity to bring joy and happiness, and karuna, the capacity to transform pain and suffering. This kind of love can only be good for people. It cannot be described as negative or destructive. It is safe. It guarantees everything.
Should we cross out the phrase "long-term commitment" or change it to "short-term commitment"? "Short-term commitment" means that we can be together for a few days and after that the relationship will end. That cannot be described as love. If we have that kind of relationship with another person, we cannot say that the relationship comes out of love and care. The expression "long-term commitment" helps people understand the word love. In the context of real love, commitment can only be long-term. "I want to love you. I want to help you. I want to care for you. I want you to be happy. I want to work for happiness. But just for a few days." Does this make sense?
You are afraid to make a commitment -- to the precepts, to your partner, to anything. You want freedom. But remember, you have to make a long-term commitment to love your son deeply and help him through the journey of life as long as you are alive. You cannot just say, "I don't love you anymore." When you have a good friend, you also make a long-term commitment. You need her. How much more so with someone who wants to share your life, your soul, and your body. The phrase "long-term commitment" cannot express the depth of love, but we have to say something so that people understand.
A long-term commitment between two people is only a beginning. We also need the support of friends and other people. That is why, in our society, we have a wedding ceremony. The two families join together with other friends to witness the fact that you have come together to live as a couple. The priest and the marriage license are just symbols. What is important is that your commitment is witnessed by many friends and both of your families. Now you will be supported by them. A long-term commitment is stronger and more long-lasting if made in the context of a Sangha.
http://dharma.ncf.ca/introduction/precepts/precept-3.html
As for the religious aspect. If having same sex relations is against your religion, have sex with someone of the opposite sex. Follow your own religious principles but don't expect people out of your religious persuasion to follow you.
Some religions make no distinction between same sex or opposite sex relations. The rules are the same for both. Example? The Buddhist tradition as taught by Thich Nhat Hanh.
"Aware of the suffering caused by sexual misconduct, I vow to cultivate responsibility and learn ways to protect the safety and integrity of individuals, couples, families and society. I am determined not to engage in sexual relations without love and a long-term commitment. To preserve the happiness of myself and others, I am determined to respect my commitments and the commitments of others. I will do everything in my power to protect children from sexual abuse and to prevent couples and families from being broken by sexual misconduct."
http://dharma.ncf.ca/introduction/precepts.html
And part of his commentary on the Third Precept on Sexual Misconduct:
A sexual relationship is an act of communion between body and spirit. This is a very important encounter, not to be done in a casual manner. You know that in your soul there are certain areas -- memories, pain, secrets -- that are private, that you would only share with the person you love and trust the most. You do not open your heart and show it to just anyone. In the imperial city, there is a zone you cannot approach called the forbidden city; only the king and his family are permitted to circulate there. There is a place like that in your soul that you do not allow anyone to approach except the one you trust and love the most.
The same is true of our body. Our bodies have areas that we do not want anyone to touch or approach unless he or she is the one we respect, trust, and love the most. When we are approached casually or carelessly, with an attitude that is less than tender, we feel insulted in our body and soul. Someone who approaches us with respect, tenderness, and utmost care is offering us deep communication, deep communion. It is only in that case that we will not feel hurt, misused, or abused, even a little. This cannot be attained unless there is true love and commitment. Casual sex cannot be described as love. Love is deep, beautiful, and whole.
True love contains respect. In my tradition, husband and wife are expected to respect each other like guests, and when you practice this kind of respect, your love and happiness will continue for a long time. In sexual relationships, respect is one of the most important elements. Sexual communion should be like a rite, a ritual performed in mindfulness with great respect, care, and love. If you are motivated by some desire, that is not love. Desire is not love. Love is something much more responsible. It has care in it.
We have to restore the meaning of the word "love." We have been using it in a careless way. When we say, "I love hamburgers," we are not talking about love. We are talking about our appetite, our desire for hamburgers. We should not dramatize our speech and misuse words like that. We make words like "love" sick that way. We have to make an effort to heal our language by using words carefully. The word "love" is a beautiful word. We have to restore its meaning.
"I am determined not to engage in sexual relations without love and a long-term commitment." If the word "love" is understood in the deepest way, why do we need to say "long-term commitment"? If love is real, we do not need long or short-term commitments, or even a wedding ceremony. True love includes the sense of responsibility, accepting the other person as he is, with all his strengths and weaknesses. If we like only the best things in the person, that is not love. We have to accept his weaknesses and bring our patience, understanding, and energy to help him transform. Love is maitri, the capacity to bring joy and happiness, and karuna, the capacity to transform pain and suffering. This kind of love can only be good for people. It cannot be described as negative or destructive. It is safe. It guarantees everything.
Should we cross out the phrase "long-term commitment" or change it to "short-term commitment"? "Short-term commitment" means that we can be together for a few days and after that the relationship will end. That cannot be described as love. If we have that kind of relationship with another person, we cannot say that the relationship comes out of love and care. The expression "long-term commitment" helps people understand the word love. In the context of real love, commitment can only be long-term. "I want to love you. I want to help you. I want to care for you. I want you to be happy. I want to work for happiness. But just for a few days." Does this make sense?
You are afraid to make a commitment -- to the precepts, to your partner, to anything. You want freedom. But remember, you have to make a long-term commitment to love your son deeply and help him through the journey of life as long as you are alive. You cannot just say, "I don't love you anymore." When you have a good friend, you also make a long-term commitment. You need her. How much more so with someone who wants to share your life, your soul, and your body. The phrase "long-term commitment" cannot express the depth of love, but we have to say something so that people understand.
A long-term commitment between two people is only a beginning. We also need the support of friends and other people. That is why, in our society, we have a wedding ceremony. The two families join together with other friends to witness the fact that you have come together to live as a couple. The priest and the marriage license are just symbols. What is important is that your commitment is witnessed by many friends and both of your families. Now you will be supported by them. A long-term commitment is stronger and more long-lasting if made in the context of a Sangha.
http://dharma.ncf.ca/introduction/precepts/precept-3.html
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Sky Dancer
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- #244
I haven't read ALL of the thread yet, I've read recent postings and then some from the beginning. The topic went south, as it always does almost immediately.
I think it's all good. Even the people who are prejudiced against gay and lesbian people and abhor out relationships still help the cause of marriage equality. Due to the reaction to our civil rights cause, we have to organize and work all the harder.
The anti-gay movement and the civil marriage quality movement are mutually dependent on each other.
Every insult brings out a corresponding goodness from people who don't hate gay or lesbians.
I think it's all good. Even the people who are prejudiced against gay and lesbian people and abhor out relationships still help the cause of marriage equality. Due to the reaction to our civil rights cause, we have to organize and work all the harder.
The anti-gay movement and the civil marriage quality movement are mutually dependent on each other.
Every insult brings out a corresponding goodness from people who don't hate gay or lesbians.
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- #245
Any questions?
Sunni Man
Diamond Member
Is your HIV+ still under control??
Sky Dancer
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- #247
Any questions?
Don't let Sunni Man trap you into a personal defense of any kind. Keep the debate non-personal.
Sky Dancer
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- #248
I have two reactions to this post. First of all, someone else's HIV status is none of your business.
Second, even if someone is HIV+ it is not a death sentence, but a chronic illness that many people live long and relatively happy lives with.
If safe sex is practiced, there is no danger of anyone in a relationship with an HIV+ person to worry.
I suspect you're trying to flame bait this poster. Same old same old. How many years now have I watched you do this kind of thing?
Last edited:
Sunni Man
Diamond Member
Moi ?? 
Quantum Windbag
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I have a better idea than me reading through this whole thread and seeing if you tried to remain civil,. and then took your frustration out on me. Why don't you go look through some threads where I am involved with discussing something I believe in with people who attack me, and have no problem giving it right back to them, yet still manage to treat people that approach the subject with respect the way they treat me.
My first post didn't require an answer, it was, and is, a simple statement of position. Rights are not conditional upon the classification of the recipient, everyone has them or no one does. Like I told whoever tried to claim I was being clever, that is so obvious it should go without saying. Unfortunately, it doesn't.
Marriage is a state licensed activity that gives benefits to people based on their classification, therefore, it is not a right. If it were, single people could claim the same benefits. I therefore oppose marriage, as defined by the state, without reservation.
My comment about picking a better source than the APA as proof of your assertion that homosexuality is based on two things. The first is that the APA is constantly changing their position based on political expediency. Homosexuality went from being deviant but acceptable behavior to being a mental disorder to being normal today, all without a shred of any science to back up their positions. The second is that psychology is not science in that you cannot accurately predict the reaction of an individual, and there is no way to reproduce results. It is a collection of observations and guesses.
As for the genetic thing, twin studies claim show a correlation between genetic factors and sexual preference. The problem is that twin studies also show that identical twins do not always have the same sexual preferences. People like to delude themselves and argue that the correlation proves causation but it doesn't. I can't explain the correlation, but I do know that genetics is not more a factor than environment. At this point the only thing science can tell us about our sexuality is we have no idea why people like blue.
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- #251
Okay...but me reading other threads you have posted in has nothing to do with your assertion that I "proved that the purpose of this thread isn't what I said it was." Surprised you would make that conclusion without reading the majority of the thread you generalize.
And I didn't imply I took out my frustration on you. My responses to you weren't heated or angry. I meant that the purpose of the thread was derailed.
Anyways, with twin studies, the three major ones show the following correlation:
Kallman - Identical 100% Fraternal 12%
Heston + Shields - 43% 14%
Bailey and Pillard - 52% 22%
Comparing twins shows a clear genetic pre-disposition. There are also MASSIVE variables that make studies on homosexuality difficult. For one, almost none use physiological indicators of arousal, so they rely on the honesty of subjects in regards to a very difficult and emotional question about their orientation. Closeted gay men will literally not admit their true orientation under any circumstances as they are so horridly repressed. Studies have been done (using arousal indicators) to show homophobic men are much more likely to be aroused by gay pornography (aka are gay).
But I'm getting tired of this thread. People who believe the opposite of me will not be convinced by anything other than life experience.
You don't understand that its discrimination to allow straight couples to get married and enjoy all kinds of benefits and then deny gay couples all those same benefits? Thats what this is all about, be honest. But sooner or later and slowly but surely they are getting their way. And I hope it kills you.
There's really something wrong if you have the need to marry another man.
Men don't marry man.
Quantum Windbag
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The only solid conclusion you can draw from twin studies is that sexual preference is not genetic, if it were the correlation between identical twins would be 100%.
Amelia
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- #255
I know I can't possibly keep up with all the times you claim this, but I'll take the liberty of buzzing this from time to time.
Same argument as last night:
A. Identical twins are not as identical as you imply.
B. Genetic predispositions can be complicated. Sometimes the trait is triggered, sometimes it isn't.
Until next time ......
Quantum Windbag
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Are you trying to argue that homosexuality is a genetic predisposition and that some people are more like to catch being gay than others? If not, your point makes no sense at all.
Cenotaph
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I would answer your question, but... I have no experience in this field (virgin).
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