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Asians are NOT Being Passed Over At Harvard

RetiredGySgt

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Try to pay attention here, buddy. This is about Harvard, which is not "the government". It's a private institution.



Fair enough.

But as stated, ANYONE being considered for Harvard is pretty exceptional.

So the question is, do you just take the top performers, or do you try to strike a balance? Because elite schools like Harvard have an outsized influence on business and government, that would require them to have diversity. Otherwise it becomes a case of perpetuating racism.
Wrong the accept Government money so are bound by Federal law.
 
OP
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IM2

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Let me be more explicit in my argument, since you haven't addressed it. Harvard is a selective school that selects based on, among other things, academic accomplishment. In the US, Asians on average have significantly higher academic accomplishments than blacks (or whites or Native Americans or Latinos). As such, it is possible for them to be admitted at higher rates than Blacks even if Harvard discriminates against Asians, in the sense that certain Asian applicants would not be admitted when their applications are otherwise identical to ones that would earn admission for black applicants.

And, indeed, that seems to be what is happening. Harvard admits their black applicants have, on average, lower academic achievement than their Asian ones. They just claim it's because the Asians have bad personalities. But as I mentioned in an earlier post, they discriminate structurally against Asians even before they pretend to measure their personalities.
I posted the admissions numbers. It gets no more specific than that. Asians are not getting passed over for blacks when there are 10 percent more Asians being admitted and 4 times more Asian students than blacks. Now those are the facts, your feelings based on lies you believe about affirmative action are not the facts.
 
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This article was written by your typical overly woke super liberal who will defend the good name of blacks even as they're stabbing her to death because she's asian.. There are 200 million white ppl living in America. I'd be shocked and surprised if they didn't make up the majority of anti asian hate crimes here compared with any other racial group. That one was not hard to figure out. But with that said, the data is actually from 1992 to 2014. What about data from 2020 till now? Anti asian hate is up 339% nationwide and the reason why blacks are being "overly reported" in these incidents is because they have literally taken to killing asians and attacking the elderly to justify their racism. This isn't some case of discrimination by a white person, which is probably what makes up most of their anti asian hate crimes stats in that 75%. Those aren't going to make the news. Murder and elder assault will, no matter who the race of the perpetrator is. When there's video of a black person killing an elderly asian man when he's just doing his daily walk, or another black man curb stomping and killing another elderly asian while he's picking up cans, it will be "overly reported." But even then police will often not jump to call these hate incidents, thus affecting stats for anti asian hate crimes by blacks to be less than they actually are. Couple that with the fact that they may not even be reported. Meanwhile a group of black teens attacked a hasidic jew recently and it's automatically a hate crime by police.

Most blacks aren't committing these crimes but what seems to be endemic is that black community as a whole pretty much ignores it or makes excuses for it or tries to cover it up, like you're doing now. I would even go so far as to say that the majority might even support it. I've been to one board where it's majority black ppl because it's basetball related and the amount of anti asian hate there is through the roof, lol.
I am black. I know what the black community is doing. Asians are the ones who have tracked the information and Asians are the ones pointing to whites. It is the common white racist lie that blacks are protected by the media and all black crime is undercounted. So take that garbage elsewhere.
 
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1654633096846.png


Most anti-Asian attacks committed by whites – new study​

June 17, 2021

Janelle Wong, a professor of American Studies at the University of Maryland, College Park, released analysis last week, based on official crime statistics and other studies, showing more than three-quarters of offenders of anti-Asian hate crimes and incidents, previous to and during the pandemic, have been white.

Wong told NBC Asian America that “the way that the media is covering and the way that people are understanding anti-Asian hate at this moment, in some ways, draws attention to these long-standing anti-Asian biases in U.S. society,” Wong said. “But the racist kind of tropes that come along with it — especially that it’s predominantly Black people attacking Asian Americans who are elderly — there’s not really an empirical basis in that.”

For a year and a half, Wong examined nine sources and four types of data about anti-Asian hate incidents, including from the reporting forum Stop AAPI Hate, Pew Research, as well as official law enforcement data.

A misreading of a frequently cited study from this year, published in the American Journal of Criminal Justice, likely contributed to the spread of erroneous impressions, Wong said.

Other studies confirm Wong’s findings. The University of Michigan Virulent Hate Project found that more than 75 percent of news stories identified perpetrators of physical or verbal assault as male and when the race of the perpetrator was confirmed.

Karthick Ramakrishnan, founder of AAPI Data, for which Wong also works, said that the public’s perception of perpetrators and victims is largely formed by the images from videos that have gone viral. But most security videos tend to be from low-income areas where there is more surveillance than in better-off areas, creating a lopsided impression, he said.


Of course, since this doesn't fit the lie white racists want to force on people, this gets dismissed as woke liberal. But just like Asians are not getting passed over for blacks at Harvard, the majority of attacks on Asians are not by blacks.
 

proudbelle

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I posted the admissions numbers. It gets no more specific than that. Asians are not getting passed over for blacks when there are 10 percent more Asians being admitted and 4 times more Asian students than blacks. Now those are the facts, your feelings based on lies you believe about affirmative action are not the facts.
Why are you refusing to engage with my argument?

1. To "discriminate" is to treat someone differently based on their group identity. From, e.g., dictionary.com, to discriminate is "to make a distinction in favor of or against a person or thing on the basis of the group, class, or category to which the person or thing belongs rather than according to actual merit; show partiality"

2. Asians, on average, have more desirable traits according to at least some of Harvard's metrics, e.g., SAT scores.

3. Consequently, even if Harvard discriminated against Asians somewhat they could still be admitted at higher rates than other groups.

4. Furthermore, there is substantial evidence that not only is this possible, it is happening. For instance, Harvard claims Asians have very bad personalities to justify not admitting them, and Harvard admits to not sending out invite letters to Asian students who are as qualified as black students to whom it would send letters.
 
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Why are you refusing to engage with my argument?

1. To "discriminate" is to treat someone differently based on their group identity. From, e.g., dictionary.com, to discriminate is "to make a distinction in favor of or against a person or thing on the basis of the group, class, or category to which the person or thing belongs rather than according to actual merit; show partiality"

2. Asians, on average, have more desirable traits according to at least some of Harvard's metrics, e.g., SAT scores.

3. Consequently, even if Harvard discriminated against Asians somewhat they could still be admitted at higher rates than other groups.

4. Furthermore, there is substantial evidence that not only is this possible, it is happening. For instance, Harvard claims Asians have very bad personalities to justify not admitting them, and Harvard admits to not sending out invite letters to Asian students who are as qualified as black students to whom it would send letters.
As it pertains to being admitted into Harvard, Asians are not discriminated against. I don't need the definition of discrimination or any of the dodges you are trying. Asians were 25.9 percent of the students admitted to Harvard last year. That was way more than any other minority group. Whatever was said about personality or any of the other issues you are presenting stopped that from happening.

To "discriminate" is to treat someone differently based on their group identity.

Blacks,Hispanics and Native Americans are discriminated against at Harvard too by this definition. And discrimination can happen outside of group identity.
 

JoeB131

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As it pertains to being admitted into Harvard, Asians are not discriminated against. I don't need the definition of discrimination or any of the dodges you are trying. Asians were 25.9 percent of the students admitted to Harvard last year. That was way more than any other minority group. Whatever was said about personality or any of the other issues you are presenting stopped that from happening.

To "discriminate" is to treat someone differently based on their group identity.

Blacks,Hispanics and Native Americans are discriminated against at Harvard too by this definition. And discrimination can happen outside of group identity.

Okay, but let's look at the basis of that discrimination.

Blacks, Hispanics and Native Americans aren't being discriminated against because of their skin color, they are being discriminated against because they get lower test scores.

1654714676237.png


So if you are an Asian kid who got a 770 on your ACT, and you are passed over for a black kid who only got a 720, you probably have a valid complaint. You didn't participate in "White Supremacy". You just worked hard, got good grades, and studied.

Now, I do think there is a GOOD argument to be made for AA, in that because we allot outsized influence to elite schools like Harvard, their graduating classes need to be more diverse. The higher scoring Asian and White kids will get picked up by State Universities and still do very well. Or we can do something as breathtakingly rational as not giving these schools the influence they have. That works, too.

Final point, the purpose of these programs were for economic advancement, but the kid who is being picked isn't from the hood or the barrio, he's from a nice suburb because his parents worked their way out. He just didn't study as hard.
 

proudbelle

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As it pertains to being admitted into Harvard, Asians are not discriminated against. I don't need the definition of discrimination or any of the dodges you are trying. Asians were 25.9 percent of the students admitted to Harvard last year. That was way more than any other minority group. Whatever was said about personality or any of the other issues you are presenting stopped that from happening.

To "discriminate" is to treat someone differently based on their group identity.

Blacks,Hispanics and Native Americans are discriminated against at Harvard too by this definition. And discrimination can happen outside of group identity.
I don't understand why you think I'm dodging anything. I'm just trying to use words by their common meaning (using dictionaries to support that meaning when it appears it may be in doubt) and introducing evidence to ascertain the veracity of the statements presented. Harvard discriminates against Asian students on the basis of their identity in admission decisions: Harvard admits that they do this in the letters they send out encouraging them to apply and I believe they also do this in systematically assigning them low personality scores.

This is more speculative, but if you look at this data presented by the NYT, it looks like somewhere in the mid-90's someone at Harvard (the effect is even more blatant at MIT) said "ew, we've got too many Asians, we have to do something":

 

ThomasSowellsFro

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My thing is, I don't care either way. What Asians do you know bending over backwards to accommodate black issues? Zero. It's unfortunate, but we shouldn't stop to remediate oppression of blacks just because a very small minority is getting in the way. If we went to China or Japan, and railroaded whatever domestic issues they have over there, they wouldn't like it either. Personally I think we need to shut off skilled and unskilled immigration, and put black Americans first.
 
OP
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how about black men, i should say boys keep their peckers in their pants?
How about you drop that silly racist bs. Information has been out there for years showing that married black women are putting careers first and not having children. So the unwed black birth rate is not because boys can't control themselves. Considering the history of white perversion I think you need to leave this alone. But hey if you want to advocate for fewer black unwed births, go on up to a married black female and tell her to start having children. And when you are done, may God have mercy on your soul.
 

RetiredGySgt

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How about you drop that silly racist bs. Information has been out there for years showing that married black women are putting careers first and not having children. So the unwed black birth rate is not because boys can't control themselves. Considering the history of white perversion I think you need to leave this alone. But hey if you want to advocate for fewer black unwed births, go on up to a married black female and tell her to start having children. And when you are done, may God have mercy on your soul.
what does married black women have to do with unwed women having babies?
 

krichton

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View attachment 655083

Most anti-Asian attacks committed by whites – new study​

June 17, 2021

Janelle Wong, a professor of American Studies at the University of Maryland, College Park, released analysis last week, based on official crime statistics and other studies, showing more than three-quarters of offenders of anti-Asian hate crimes and incidents, previous to and during the pandemic, have been white.

Wong told NBC Asian America that “the way that the media is covering and the way that people are understanding anti-Asian hate at this moment, in some ways, draws attention to these long-standing anti-Asian biases in U.S. society,” Wong said. “But the racist kind of tropes that come along with it — especially that it’s predominantly Black people attacking Asian Americans who are elderly — there’s not really an empirical basis in that.”

For a year and a half, Wong examined nine sources and four types of data about anti-Asian hate incidents, including from the reporting forum Stop AAPI Hate, Pew Research, as well as official law enforcement data.

A misreading of a frequently cited study from this year, published in the American Journal of Criminal Justice, likely contributed to the spread of erroneous impressions, Wong said.

Other studies confirm Wong’s findings. The University of Michigan Virulent Hate Project found that more than 75 percent of news stories identified perpetrators of physical or verbal assault as male and when the race of the perpetrator was confirmed.

Karthick Ramakrishnan, founder of AAPI Data, for which Wong also works, said that the public’s perception of perpetrators and victims is largely formed by the images from videos that have gone viral. But most security videos tend to be from low-income areas where there is more surveillance than in better-off areas, creating a lopsided impression, he said.


Of course, since this doesn't fit the lie white racists want to force on people, this gets dismissed as woke liberal. But just like Asians are not getting passed over for blacks at Harvard, the majority of attacks on Asians are not by blacks.


I'd like to point out the simple fact that this study spanned from 1992 to 2014, so we're talking about 245 incidents in 23 years according to this study. So that's 245 anti asian hate incidents from whites and approximately 84 were from non whites, which comes out to over 11 incidents a year from whites and 3.5 incidents a year from non whites. I don't even think you believe those numbers. More importantly and coincidentally, 1992 was the same year as the Rodney King riots which saw 200 korean businesses destroyed, which turned out to be approximately half the businesses looted and destroyed by blacks in the riots, affecting 2300 korean business owners. Gee, i wonder how many koreans were hurt in that one. Nothing says, go back to where you came from then burning and looting the small businesses of your asian neighbors in koreatown. If you're trying to cite that study as evidence that 245 incidents with whites over the span of 23 years shows that they are more violently racist towards Asians you've failed, failed miserably, just as this "study" has failed miserably by including 1992 of all years. I've never read anything more tone deaf in my life.

Also, the other source cited, the Virulent hate project, uses the mention of the race of the perpetrator in media in order to claim that whites were the ones committing the vast majority of violent hate crimes against Asians. What I find interesting about this is that blacks themselves claim the media is biased towards reporting a lot more anti asian hate crimes by blacks, but this source you cited proves otherwise, so who is right? lol. You can't have it both ways.
 

AZrailwhale

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My thing is, I don't care either way. What Asians do you know bending over backwards to accommodate black issues? Zero. It's unfortunate, but we shouldn't stop to remediate oppression of blacks just because a very small minority is getting in the way. If we went to China or Japan, and railroaded whatever domestic issues they have over there, they wouldn't like it either. Personally I think we need to shut off skilled and unskilled immigration, and put black Americans first.
Why do YOU think Asians should “bend over backwards to accommodate black issues”? They are a smaller minority in the USA than blacks. If anything, you should be bending over backwards to assist a fellow minority to succeed in the face of what you claim is systemic white racism and oppression.
 

AZrailwhale

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How about you drop that silly racist bs. Information has been out there for years showing that married black women are putting careers first and not having children. So the unwed black birth rate is not because boys can't control themselves. Considering the history of white perversion I think you need to leave this alone. But hey if you want to advocate for fewer black unwed births, go on up to a married black female and tell her to start having children. And when you are done, may God have mercy on your soul.
What does your rant about MARRIED black women have to do with UNMARRIED black girls and women having children without fathers in the household? The married black women seem to be doing quite well for themselves and are following the normal dynamic of successful people having few children.
 
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What does your rant about MARRIED black women have to do with UNMARRIED black girls and women having children without fathers in the household? The married black women seem to be doing quite well for themselves and are following the normal dynamic of successful people having few children.
It has everything to do with the percentage and an unwed birth does not mean no man is around. A man sitting in the house without a job does nothing to stop poverty. Last, black couples earn less than white couples, so again, this white argument about unwed births denies the real priblem-white racism.

So like I said, saunter on up to a married black woman, tell her to start having kids and see what you get.
 

krichton

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My thing is, I don't care either way. What Asians do you know bending over backwards to accommodate black issues? Zero. It's unfortunate, but we shouldn't stop to remediate oppression of blacks just because a very small minority is getting in the way. If we went to China or Japan, and railroaded whatever domestic issues they have over there, they wouldn't like it either. Personally I think we need to shut off skilled and unskilled immigration, and put black Americans first.

A really strange statement. Who's asking anyone to forget about Black issues? Assuming you are responding about the topic, what does Harvard seemingly discriminating against asians have anything to do with blacks?? Is this an example of black ppl playing the victim card any chance they can get?


Why do YOU think Asians should “bend over backwards to accommodate black issues”? They are a smaller minority in the USA than blacks. If anything, you should be bending over backwards to assist a fellow minority to succeed in the face of what you claim is systemic white racism and oppression.

If anything the complete opposite is true.
 

Godboy

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First, let me start with the reason right-wingers here defend Asians even after blaming them for COVID19 was that Asian culture teaches to take the abuse and be quiet. It is the same philosophy Booker T. Washington used and blacks found that DID NOT WORK. Young Asians today have found that it does not work and are talking to older Asians about it. In upcoming years look for Asians to lose most favored minority group status and honorary whiteness as they begin to get more forceful in their challenge of white supremacy.

As for Harvard, Asians are not getting excluded. Once again I will repost the information from the upcoming case.

Students for Fair Admissions v. President & Fellows of Harvard College. It is a case first filed in 2014.

In this case, the contention is that Asians are discriminated against based on the number of Asians turned down for Harvard admission. More than 30,000 students each year apply to Harvard. In 2019, there were 36,000 applicants for 1,600 slots. That meant 34,400 students of all races were not admitted. The claim is Asians get excluded to add black and Hispanic students. Ironically the claim is not made about Asians being passed over for white legacy students. Students for Fair Admissions claimed that Harvard violated Title VI of the Civil Rights Act. Title VI “prohibits discrimination based on race, color, and national origin in federal financial assistance programs and activities.” Here is where the claim gets sticky. But before we get to that, we need to understand what courts use as regulations guiding a decision in cases such as this.

When a case such as this goes to court, the court considers many things. As it pertains to this case, the First Circuit Court determined that Harvard’s policy satisfied “strict scrutiny” and did not discriminate against Asians relative to admissions. Strict scrutiny comes into play in equal protection cases such as this one because race is considered a suspect category under the law. As a suspect category, if race is used as a classification in situations like this, it must be proven that using race is necessary to further a “compelling interest,” and the objective could not be accomplished without doing so. The use of racial classifications in this situation makes sense if a university is trying to create a learning atmosphere that utilizes students, faculty, and staff's diverse life experiences.

It is time to look at Blum's claim. He claims Asians are discriminated against in admissions. Harvard admission numbers do not support his claim. Asians are 6 percent of the American population, but they were 25.9 percent of the students entering Harvard in 2021. That is a full ten percentage points more than African Americans (15.9%) and more than double the percentage of both Hispanics(12.5%) and Native Americans(11%). In fact, there were more Asians admitted into Harvard than Hispanics and Native Americans combined. Additionally, a study published by the National Bureau of Economic Research and reported on the NBC.com website on September 20, 2019, revealed this:

“Using publicly released reports, we examine the preferences Harvard gives for recruited athletes, legacies, those on the dean’s interest list, and children of faculty and staff (ALDCs). Among white admits, over 43% are ALDC. Among admits who are African American, Asian American, and Hispanic, the share is less than 16% each. Our model of admissions shows that roughly three quarters of white ALDC admits would have been rejected if they had been treated as white non-ALDCs. Removing preferences for athletes and legacies would significantly alter the racial distribution of admitted students, with the share of white admits falling and all other groups rising or remaining unchanged.”

Here, we see that whites are provided entry by a plethora of other preferences they would not qualify for if not for connections they have due to their race. The study shows that Asians are not adversely impacted because Harvard must admit blacks and Hispanics that are presumably unqualified. Instead, we see white ALDC students who would not qualify under any other circumstance who get accepted at more than double the percentage of Asians, Blacks, Hispanics, and Native Americans who meet the same criteria.

Equal protection means that government entities must treat all individuals the same when the circumstances or situations are the same. Students for Fair Admissions claimed that Harvard violated Title VI of the Civil Rights Act. Title VI “prohibits discrimination based on race, color, and national origin in federal financial assistance programs and activities.” The numbers show that when the circumstances and situations are the same, meaning ALDC preferences, 2.68 times more whites get admitted due to this preference than Asians, Blacks, Hispanics, and Native Americans.

Harvard’s Admissions Program Does Not Violate the Civil Rights Act., Students for Fair Admissions, Inc. v. President & Fellows of Harvard College

TITLE VI OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT OF 1964 42 U.S.C. § 2000D ET SEQ., Title VI Of The Civil Rights Act Of 1964 42 U.S.C. § 2000d Et Seq.

Students for Fair Admissions, Inc. v. President & Fellows of Harvard College, First Circuit Holds that Harvard’s Admissions Program Does Not Violate the Civil Rights Act., Students for Fair Admissions, Inc. v. President & Fellows of Harvard College

Russell W. Galloway Jr., Basic Equal Protection Analysis, 29 Santa Clara L. Rev. 121 (1989). Basic Equal Protection Analysis

The diverse demographics of Asian Americans, The diverse demographics of Asian Americans

Admissions Statistics, A Brief Profile of the Admitted Class of 2025, Harvard welcomes students from across the country and all over, Admissions Statistics

Daniella Silva, Study on Harvard finds 43 percent of white students are legacy, athletes, related to donors or staff, Study finds 43 percent of Harvard's white students are legacy, athletes, related to donors or staff

Peter Arcidiacono, Josh Kinsler, Tyler Ransom, National Bureau Of Economic Research, Legacy And Athlete Preferences At Harvard, Working Paper 26316, Legacy and Athlete Preferences at Harvard
Oh look, he understands population percentages now. I wonder how long he will retain this memory. Not long im guessing.
 

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