Are There Any Moderates Here?

[Doc1]

I don't have much use for either Party but I do know this, the Left ALWAYS attempts to redefine words and control dialogue.

 

[Mac1958]

It is for those very reasons that Progressives refuse to look at or read views opposed to their own. Conservatives, on the other hand, are much more likely to consider opposing views. The reason for the difference is that Progressives are very insecure in their views and fear being swayed by facts.

From my perspective as an independent, I would actually agree with that, to a point.

In general (not always, but in general) it's easier to have a straight-ahead conversation with a conservative. They are more likely (in general) to want to lay out their side and claim they're right. This includes the times (in my opinion) that they have clearly been badly misled and misinformed. But they do seem to believe in what they're saying and are straightforward with it.

Liberals, in general, are more likely to play a LOT of games and try to control the language to their advantage. They'll play their transparent PC games, tossing out "racist" and all the other "ists" regularly in an attempt to put you on the defensive and gain advantage. They just don't seem sincere, and that does make me sometimes wonder about their confidence in their beliefs.
.

 

[Toro]

There is a difference between a moderate and an independent. There are some very hard left and right wingers who aren't in either party.

 

[Doc1]

There is a difference between a moderate and an independent. There are some very hard left and right wingers who aren't in either party.

There are some very Centrist folks who aren't in either Party.

 

[Boss]

The Trumpsters are kind of a different animal. I wasn't here for previous elections, so maybe it's nothing new, but with the Trumpsters, it's more about adulating the POTUS than about any particular policy. Giggle at a Trump joke, make a stray comment about one of his doofy alternate facts and BOOM. You are a fuckin' libtard and anti-American to boot. They're a special breed of winger.

I'm on the proverbial outside looking in. I didn't vote for Trump. I was a Cruz supporter in the primaries and I was glad Hillary didn't win, but I had numerous problems with Trump on policy and still do. He is the most liberal republican of my lifetime.

The thing that I don't think the left is getting here, and maybe they never will, is that Trump's supporters are dishing out exactly the kind of thing the left has dished out to the right for the past 20 years. You're getting at taste of your own medicine and you don't like it.

You're right, his most avid supporters will stand behind him no matter what he does. He totally eviscerated Jeb Bush in the primaries over his "compassionate" position toward the children of illegals.... crucified the man in the debates... called him every name in the book while insisting on a hard line in applying the law. Now that he has won, his position is pretty much EXACTLY the Jeb Bush position on this issue. Does this matter to his fan base? Not a bit! They don't care.

He has flip-flopped on all kinds of things.... supports more family leave... increasing the minimum wage... infrastructure stimulus... global warming... ethanol subsidies... nationalized child care... single payer healthcare... do his fans care? Nadda! He is their Rock Star Obama and he can do no wrong. If you try and have a rational conversation with them, you're an idiot and moron who isn't worthy to even speak your opinion.

What the left doesn't seem to realize is, THEY created this monster. It was their failure to moderate, to come together, to work with the other side in any kind of meaningful way on ANY issue, that paved the way for a new kind of Republican.... and it's one you can't handle.

Trump's backpedaling on many of his positions during the campaign makes it necessary to keep campaigning even thou he's been elected. He has to keep the support of his base. Presidents usually abandon the campaigning once elected at least for the first two years to concentrate on running the country. They try to adopt the father of their country image, a leader beyond jousting with reporters and disputing crowd sizes, but not Trump.

If you take the time to study leaders like Trump. You'll see they never stop campaigning. Hitler's speeches and rallies before he became Chancellor were no different than after he became Chancellor. It has been much the same with other charismatic populous leaders. They need those cheers and thousands shouting their name.

I don't think you have any more of a grasp on the Trump phenomena as anyone else on the left. You drag up "disputing crowd sizes" like a cat with his three-week-old dead rat trophy, as if that somehow will impress me. It really doesn't. The entire controversy was created by the leftist media who tried to smear him by posting a bogus picture following his inauguration, to which he retaliated to the exuberant cheering of his fans. And that's the part you don't seem to be getting... You keep feeding him material to torch you with and he keeps on doing it and his poll numbers continue to go up the more it happens. You don't understand it, so you go out there and find some other trivial nonsense to throw at him and he torches your asses again. Then you try to pretend it was Trump who was being childish... NO... it was YOU who were being childish and Trump simply turned it around on you and blew it up in your stupid little faces.

I've given the analogy before... it's like the parent dealing with his spoiled brat little child... the child is pitching a fit in the floor, kicking and screaming because he didn't get his way. Now, a sophisticated adult response might be to simply ignore the fit and eventually the child will get over it... OR... the parent can get down in the floor with the kid and mock him by mimicking his behavior, kicking and screaming himself, and pointing out how pathetic of an actor the child is because he doesn't know how to sell his hissy fit. The child doesn't know how to deal with that because that's not how an adult is supposed to react. It throws the kid completely off his game. Another adult might walk into the room in the middle of all this and think... what a fool... he's not a very good parent behaving that way... but it's because they don't understand the psychology happening.

For YEARS, the GOP response to the fit-pitching Democrat children has been to ignore them and try to remain mature and serious.... it hasn't worked. So now, you have Trump who is trying a new approach and it seems to be wildly popular. And you don't know how do deal with that.

 

[Divine Wind]

There is a difference between a moderate and an independent. There are some very hard left and right wingers who aren't in either party.

True, but most Independents are moderate, not fringe nutjobs.

 

[sartre play]

Just out of curiosity, this forum seems pretty polarized, which is fine, I come here to debate. However, I was curious if there were any other moderates out there along with me?

I'm left leaning, but, perhaps because I was raised in the South and served in the Marines, am a moderate liberal. I can say I voted split ticket for this past election and, even though I am on the left the candidate I was most behind in our last election was Rubio rather than Trump, Clinton, or Sanders.

I'm also a big fan of Sen. John McCain as well as a fan of Sen Elizabeth Warren. So, is there anybody else out here that toes the fence line between parties? I feel like I'm a dying breed here.

I didn't vote because the poll doesn't accurately describe me...moderate liberal [registered democrat], with the exception of this year I never split a ticket, it's all one party, I am on the left with most social issues, and on the right when it comes to government and its role...in my opinion PC is out of control and needs to be drowned in the river, I am willing to overlook anything and everything to see it destroyed...there are a lot of folks who agree with me and since the left and right are pretty evenly split in terms of voters [about 47% each] the party that most despises PC will get most of our votes.

Agree we need to lose about 50% of the political correctness.( telling people how they should live) and about 50% of people telling other people how God wants them to live. same thing different verse.

 

[Flopper]

The Trumpsters are kind of a different animal. I wasn't here for previous elections, so maybe it's nothing new, but with the Trumpsters, it's more about adulating the POTUS than about any particular policy. Giggle at a Trump joke, make a stray comment about one of his doofy alternate facts and BOOM. You are a fuckin' libtard and anti-American to boot. They're a special breed of winger.

I'm on the proverbial outside looking in. I didn't vote for Trump. I was a Cruz supporter in the primaries and I was glad Hillary didn't win, but I had numerous problems with Trump on policy and still do. He is the most liberal republican of my lifetime.

The thing that I don't think the left is getting here, and maybe they never will, is that Trump's supporters are dishing out exactly the kind of thing the left has dished out to the right for the past 20 years. You're getting at taste of your own medicine and you don't like it.

You're right, his most avid supporters will stand behind him no matter what he does. He totally eviscerated Jeb Bush in the primaries over his "compassionate" position toward the children of illegals.... crucified the man in the debates... called him every name in the book while insisting on a hard line in applying the law. Now that he has won, his position is pretty much EXACTLY the Jeb Bush position on this issue. Does this matter to his fan base? Not a bit! They don't care.

He has flip-flopped on all kinds of things.... supports more family leave... increasing the minimum wage... infrastructure stimulus... global warming... ethanol subsidies... nationalized child care... single payer healthcare... do his fans care? Nadda! He is their Rock Star Obama and he can do no wrong. If you try and have a rational conversation with them, you're an idiot and moron who isn't worthy to even speak your opinion.

What the left doesn't seem to realize is, THEY created this monster. It was their failure to moderate, to come together, to work with the other side in any kind of meaningful way on ANY issue, that paved the way for a new kind of Republican.... and it's one you can't handle.

Trump's backpedaling on many of his positions during the campaign makes it necessary to keep campaigning even thou he's been elected. He has to keep the support of his base. Presidents usually abandon the campaigning once elected at least for the first two years to concentrate on running the country. They try to adopt the father of their country image, a leader beyond jousting with reporters and disputing crowd sizes, but not Trump.

If you take the time to study leaders like Trump. You'll see they never stop campaigning. Hitler's speeches and rallies before he became Chancellor were no different than after he became Chancellor. It has been much the same with other charismatic populous leaders. They need those cheers and thousands shouting their name.

I don't think you have any more of a grasp on the Trump phenomena as anyone else on the left. You drag up "disputing crowd sizes" like a cat with his three-week-old dead rat trophy, as if that somehow will impress me. It really doesn't. The entire controversy was created by the leftist media who tried to smear him by posting a bogus picture following his inauguration, to which he retaliated to the exuberant cheering of his fans. And that's the part you don't seem to be getting... You keep feeding him material to torch you with and he keeps on doing it and his poll numbers continue to go up the more it happens. You don't understand it, so you go out there and find some other trivial nonsense to throw at him and he torches your asses again. Then you try to pretend it was Trump who was being childish... NO... it was YOU who were being childish and Trump simply turned it around on you and blew it up in your stupid little faces.

I've given the analogy before... it's like the parent dealing with his spoiled brat little child... the child is pitching a fit in the floor, kicking and screaming because he didn't get his way. Now, a sophisticated adult response might be to simply ignore the fit and eventually the child will get over it... OR... the parent can get down in the floor with the kid and mock him by mimicking his behavior, kicking and screaming himself, and pointing out how pathetic of an actor the child is because he doesn't know how to sell his hissy fit. The child doesn't know how to deal with that because that's not how an adult is supposed to react. It throws the kid completely off his game. Another adult might walk into the room in the middle of all this and think... what a fool... he's not a very good parent behaving that way... but it's because they don't understand the psychology happening.

For YEARS, the GOP response to the fit-pitching Democrat children has been to ignore them and try to remain mature and serious.... it hasn't worked. So now, you have Trump who is trying a new approach and it seems to be wildly popular. And you don't know how do deal with that.

I brought up the dispute of crowd size at his inauguration simply to point out that something so trivial should be immaterial to the president as should the size of the popular vote and the constant criticism by the media.

The media bates Trump and have every since he started his run for president. Every reporter hopes to get the president in one on one fight. The more Trump fights back, the more the media goes after him.

Obama has got just as much criticism on various issues but he refused to play the media's game and eventually they stopped. A few times Obama would loose his cool and lash out the media but for the most part he stayed above it. Trump on other hand, can hardly keep himself from battling every reporter that criticizes him. The media bates the trap and Trump goes for it.

What news did Trump have in his last press conference, announcement of a cabinet nominee and announcing a member of his team was leaving. Then we have one hour of Trump patting himself on the back for his tremendous progress in his first month, the surge of optimism, his improved poll ratings, (which according to Trump are unreliable), the many factories that are coming back to America, all the new jobs that being created, followed by attacks on the media, lecturing reporters followed by more tremendous progress.

I keep thinking eventually this man is going to act like a president instead a real estate salesman hawking land deals in the Everglades.

 

[Boss]

I brought up the dispute of crowd size at his inauguration simply to point out that something so trivial should be immaterial to the president as should the size of the popular vote and the constant criticism of by the media.

Welp... this is a different kind of president. Indeed, it IS trivial and the NY Times should've never started it by publishing the bogus photo. Nor should all the hullabaloo ensued over the popular vote. It's simply childish and immature. But Trump isn't going to let this stuff go and "rise above it" like other Republican presidents might have... he is going to use it to bludgeon the opposition and make them wish they'd kept their mouths shut. He's going to rub their noses in the absurdity for the whole world to see, mocking them every step of the way.

Thursday's press conference is a great example of the perceptive contrast between the left and right. Most on the left saw Trump as being agitated and upset at the media... the right saw him handing their asses to them. The lefties were shocked and appalled, the righties cheered in fist-pumping jubilation. Finally, someone let these media assholes have it!

And here's the thing, this is going to keep on happening and he will continue turning it into political points like he's been doing for nearly two years now. I stand by the statement I made back when the primaries first started... the ONLY way to defeat Trump is on substance and issues. This attacking over personality plays right into his expert hands and he will continue to make you look like fools.

 

[Muhammed]

I'm a centrist.

But there is no way in hell I will ever vote Democrat. I believe that the party of slavery is just plain evil.

 

[Never3ndr]

But Trump isn't going to let this stuff go and "rise above it" like other Republican presidents might have... he is going to use it to bludgeon the opposition and make them wish they'd kept their mouths shut. He's going to rub their noses in the absurdity for the whole world to see, mocking them every step of the way.

This is the reason why I firmly believe Trump to be the most cogent danger to America in modern history...far moreso than Muslim terrorists, North Korea, Russia, China, or Iran.

Trump is actively looking to create the Divided States of America. Instead of reaching across "battle lines" and trying to find common ground...as any leader of a nation would, Trump is looking to further entrench on his side of the fence and widen the gap. One of the criticisms thrown at Obama, that I agree with, is that he allowed for great social divides to develop during his time in office (although I disagree that he encouraged those divides). It is interesting that Trumpers, who commonly point towards this as a clear reason why Obama was not a good leader, seemingly turn a blind eye when a person who they support actively divides America moreso than Obama ever had.

 

[Tom Horn]

Just out of curiosity, this forum seems pretty polarized, which is fine, I come here to debate. However, I was curious if there were any other moderates out there along with me?

I'm left leaning, but, perhaps because I was raised in the South and served in the Marines, am a moderate liberal. I can say I voted split ticket for this past election and, even though I am on the left the candidate I was most behind in our last election was Rubio rather than Trump, Clinton, or Sanders.

I'm also a big fan of Sen. John McCain as well as a fan of Sen Elizabeth Warren. So, is there anybody else out here that toes the fence line between parties? I feel like I'm a dying breed here.

You like both Rubio and Pocahontas? whoa.

 

[Boss]

This is the reason why I firmly believe Trump to be the most cogent danger to America in modern history...far moreso than Muslim terrorists, North Korea, Russia, China, or Iran.

Trump is actively looking to divide America and create the Divided States of America. Instead of reaching across "battle lines" and trying to find common ground...as any leader of a nation would, Trump is looking to further entrench on his side of the fence and widen the gap. One of the criticisms thrown at Obama, that I fully agree with is that he allowed for great social divides to develop during his time in office (although I disagree that he encouraged those divides). It is interesting that Trumpers, who commonly point towards this as a clear reason why Obama was not a good leader, seemingly turn a blind eye when a person who they support actively divides America moreso than Obama ever had.

He's not gonna reach "common ground" with you. The whole entire concept of "common ground" for the left is... "you go along with what we want and we won't attack you and call you names until tomorrow!"

Fuck you... He won the election, now he's going to govern and you're going to accept it or not accept it... he doesn't care. This whining for "bipartisanship" is for losers and wimps.

Obama literally set racial relations back 50 years in this country by agitating and instigating divisiveness through his unwarranted rhetoric and interjection into events he had no business getting involved with. Treyvon, Cambridge, Ferguson, etc., etc., etc. He had to jump in and stir the shit. Rather than BE A LEADER and call for civility and try to calm things down, he escalated them and continued to pour gasoline on the fires. Trump isn't doing that... every opportunity he's had, he offers to reach out and talk to blacks, the Congressional Black Caucus, black leaders... they get called "mediocre negroes" by the hateful left just for meeting with him.

The problem here is, you see things from a distinctly left-wing perspective. No one can talk to you... you're stubbornly mired in your own rhetoric. What you fail to understand is, a huge chunk of America doesn't agree with your identity politics and they're onto your strategy now. They see what you're doing and come 2018, you're going to get your political clocks cleaned AGAIN. Perhaps then, some of you will start reeling it back in and be ready to engage in civil debate.... or maybe not? Who fucking knows?

 

[Never3ndr]

This is the reason why I firmly believe Trump to be the most cogent danger to America in modern history...far moreso than Muslim terrorists, North Korea, Russia, China, or Iran.

Trump is actively looking to divide America and create the Divided States of America. Instead of reaching across "battle lines" and trying to find common ground...as any leader of a nation would, Trump is looking to further entrench on his side of the fence and widen the gap. One of the criticisms thrown at Obama, that I fully agree with is that he allowed for great social divides to develop during his time in office (although I disagree that he encouraged those divides). It is interesting that Trumpers, who commonly point towards this as a clear reason why Obama was not a good leader, seemingly turn a blind eye when a person who they support actively divides America moreso than Obama ever had.

He's not gonna reach "common ground" with you. The whole entire concept of "common ground" for the left is... "you go along with what we want and we won't attack you and call you names until tomorrow!"

Fuck you... He won the election, now he's going to govern and you're going to accept it or not accept it... he doesn't care. This whining for "bipartisanship" is for losers and wimps.

Obama literally set racial relations back 50 years in this country by agitating and instigating divisiveness through his unwarranted rhetoric and interjection into events he had no business getting involved with. Treyvon, Cambridge, Ferguson, etc., etc., etc. He had to jump in and stir the shit. Rather than BE A LEADER and call for civility and try to calm things down, he escalated them and continued to pour gasoline on the fires. Trump isn't doing that... every opportunity he's had, he offers to reach out and talk to blacks, the Congressional Black Caucus, black leaders... they get called "mediocre negroes" by the hateful left just for meeting with him.

The problem here is, you see things from a distinctly left-wing perspective. No one can talk to you... you're stubbornly mired in your own rhetoric. What you fail to understand is, a huge chunk of America doesn't agree with your identity politics and they're onto your strategy now. They see what you're doing and come 2018, you're going to get your political clocks cleaned AGAIN. Perhaps then, some of you will start reeling it back in and be ready to engage in civil debate.... or maybe not? Who fucking knows?

The amount of hypocrisy contained in this post is quite unbelievable. lol

You literally told me to fuck myself and get with the program, because our president can govern how he likes...and move into criticizing Obama for not healing the fences, "call for civility and try to calm things down."

You then criticize me for identity politics (in a thread I started, where I made the standpoint that I'm moderate and agree with politicians and standpoints on both sides of the fence)...yet identify me as a left-winger who is a loser and a wimp (seems kind of like identity / labeling to me!).

This is quite sad, I remember you had some posts during the summer that showed a critical mindset willing to question things and looking for a good, objective answer. Not sure what happened in the past six months, but you seem to have really regressed. Sad.

 

[eflatminor]

Interesting that a classical liberal/libertarian would not fit any of your categories, no matter how badly some would care to pigeon hole us.

No such thing as a "classical liberal/libertarian". Liberal/libertarian is an oxymoron.

Then you are ignorant of history. Get thee to a library.

 

[yiostheoy]

I'm a centrist.

But there is no way in hell I will ever vote Democrat. I believe that the party of slavery is just plain evil.

Then you are not a centrist.

You are an extremist.

 

[Boss]

The amount of hypocrisy contained in this post is quite unbelievable. lol

You literally told me to fuck myself and get with the program, because our president can govern how he likes...and move into criticizing Obama for not healing the fences, "call for civility and try to calm things down."

You then criticize me for identity politics (in a thread I started, where I made the standpoint that I'm moderate and agree with politicians and standpoints on both sides of the fence)...yet identify me as a left-winger who is a loser and a wimp (seems kind of like identity / labeling to me!).

This is quite sad, I remember you had some posts during the summer that showed a critical mindset willing to question things and looking for a good, objective answer. Not sure what happened in the past six months, but you seem to have really regressed. Sad.

But you're NOT a moderate, you're a fucking LIAR. You pretend to be a moderate because you think that makes you look objective and fair minded. It's really an old shtick the left has practiced for years. You advocate for the left, you're a shill and a hack for the left, and when you're called out or pressured, you feign this "moderate" nonsense and claim you're not a partisan. Oh.. you're reasonable and fair minded... you'd have voted for Rubio or Warren (who are as different as night and day).

 

[Never3ndr]

The amount of hypocrisy contained in this post is quite unbelievable. lol

You literally told me to fuck myself and get with the program, because our president can govern how he likes...and move into criticizing Obama for not healing the fences, "call for civility and try to calm things down."

You then criticize me for identity politics (in a thread I started, where I made the standpoint that I'm moderate and agree with politicians and standpoints on both sides of the fence)...yet identify me as a left-winger who is a loser and a wimp (seems kind of like identity / labeling to me!).

This is quite sad, I remember you had some posts during the summer that showed a critical mindset willing to question things and looking for a good, objective answer. Not sure what happened in the past six months, but you seem to have really regressed. Sad.

But you're NOT a moderate, you're a fucking LIAR. You pretend to be a moderate because you think that makes you look objective and fair minded. It's really an old shtick the left has practiced for years. You advocate for the left, you're a shill and a hack for the left, and when you're called out or pressured, you feign this "moderate" nonsense and claim you're not a partisan. Oh.. you're reasonable and fair minded... you'd have voted for Rubio or Warren (who are as different as night and day).

Me being against Trump does not mean I'm not a moderate...it means I'm against Trump.

Other Conservatives have expressed doubts about Trump from Sen. McCain to Ben Shapiro. You painting everybody who is against Trump as "a shill and hack" is the identity politics you pretend to fight against...but actually participate in and encourage...as long as it agrees with your own ideology.

Yes, by the way, I would have no trouble with voting for Rubio or Warren if they had been in the election instead of the two disasters we were presented with. I'm not pretending they have the same ideologies...I'm pretending that I agree with them far more than I agree with Trump or Clinton and more than a lot of other politicians in Washington DC.

 

[Votto]

Moderate! I've voted republican until they drove the train off the cliff. Been becoming far more liberal now that I married a liberal and that has opened my eyes to reality.

Yep, no sex until you vote "D".

Sell out, but I reckon I understand.

 

[AntonToo]

This is the reason why I firmly believe Trump to be the most cogent danger to America in modern history...far moreso than Muslim terrorists, North Korea, Russia, China, or Iran.

Trump is actively looking to divide America and create the Divided States of America. Instead of reaching across "battle lines" and trying to find common ground...as any leader of a nation would, Trump is looking to further entrench on his side of the fence and widen the gap. One of the criticisms thrown at Obama, that I fully agree with is that he allowed for great social divides to develop during his time in office (although I disagree that he encouraged those divides). It is interesting that Trumpers, who commonly point towards this as a clear reason why Obama was not a good leader, seemingly turn a blind eye when a person who they support actively divides America moreso than Obama ever had.

He's not gonna reach "common ground" with you. The whole entire concept of "common ground" for the left is... "you go along with what we want and we won't attack you and call you names until tomorrow!"

Fuck you... He won the election, now he's going to govern and you're going to accept it or not accept it... he doesn't care. This whining for "bipartisanship" is for losers and wimps.

Obama literally set racial relations back 50 years in this country by agitating and instigating divisiveness through his unwarranted rhetoric and interjection into events he had no business getting involved with. Treyvon, Cambridge, Ferguson, etc., etc., etc. He had to jump in and stir the shit. Rather than BE A LEADER and call for civility and try to calm things down, he escalated them and continued to pour gasoline on the fires. Trump isn't doing that... every opportunity he's had, he offers to reach out and talk to blacks, the Congressional Black Caucus, black leaders... they get called "mediocre negroes" by the hateful left just for meeting with him.

The problem here is, you see things from a distinctly left-wing perspective. No one can talk to you... you're stubbornly mired in your own rhetoric. What you fail to understand is, a huge chunk of America doesn't agree with your identity politics and they're onto your strategy now. They see what you're doing and come 2018, you're going to get your political clocks cleaned AGAIN. Perhaps then, some of you will start reeling it back in and be ready to engage in civil debate.... or maybe not? Who fucking knows?

Obama? Set race relations back to segregation years? You are a fucking idiot to believe that.

Love how you throw in something about people being too biased in their perspective to be talked to. That's some seriously thick irony there.