Any Christians Having Trouble With Backsliding?

[TNHarley]

You are thinking like a mortal, a human.

You are not trying to even conceptualize as if prophets or gods even exist.

"our savior is amazing. Full of love. Just dont accidently touch him or you will DIE!"

No, I dont guess I am because in any context, that makes no sense. Maybe I lost my extreme version of imagination when i was a young child.
Or maybe I just have morals

 

[MisterBeale]

No, the pharisees at the temple. His mother found him there after Jesus separated from them

I read it over and over again, I can't find that.

You apparently have a different translation than I have access to.

 

[TNHarley]

I read it over and over again, I can't find that.

You apparently have a different translation than I have access to.

Maybe so lol
XIX. 1 And when he was twelve years old his parents went according to the custom unto Jerusalem to the feast of the passover with their company: and after the passover they returned to go unto their house. And as they returned the child Jesus went back to Jerusalem; but his parents supposed that he was in their company. 2 And when they had gone a day's journey, they sought him among their kinsfolk, and when they found him not, they were troubled, and returned again to the city seeking him. And after the third day they found him in the temple sitting in the midst of the doctors and hearing and asking them questions. And all men paid heed to him and marvelled how that being a young child he put to silence the elders and teachers of the people, expounding the heads of the law and the parables of the prophets. 3 And his mother Mary came near and said unto him: Child, wherefore hast thou so done unto us? behold we have sought thee sorrowing. And Jesus said unto them: Why seek ye me? know ye not that I must be in my Father's house? 4 But the scribes and Pharisees said: Art thou the mother of this child? and she said: I am. And they said unto her: Blessed art thou among women because God hath blessed the fruit of thy womb. For such glory and such excellence and wisdom we have neither seen nor heard at any time. 5 And Jesus arose and followed his mother and was subject unto his parents: but his mother kept in mind all that came to pass. And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature and grace. Unto him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[MisterBeale]

"our savior is amazing. Full of love. Just dont accidently touch him or you will DIE!"

No, I dont guess I am because in any context, that makes no sense. Maybe I lost my extreme version of imagination when i was a young child.
Or maybe I just have morals

Just TRY to imagine that you are omniscient. One who would have such a power to see all of the universe, all of time and space.

If you have the mind of a five year old child, not yet quite understanding the limitations and egos of the mortals you inhabit the world around you with, and someone. . . say, like Adolf Hitler, or a Ted Bundy, bumped into you, and you got a flash of their entire life, right before your eyes.





. . . now think of the impulses of a five your old child who is pure of spirit. What would the impulse to react, maybe be? If, as we are told, he was a mortal with the power of a god?

 

[MisterBeale]

Maybe so lol
XIX. 1 And when he was twelve years old his parents went according to the custom unto Jerusalem to the feast of the passover with their company: and after the passover they returned to go unto their house. And as they returned the child Jesus went back to Jerusalem; but his parents supposed that he was in their company. 2 And when they had gone a day's journey, they sought him among their kinsfolk, and when they found him not, they were troubled, and returned again to the city seeking him. And after the third day they found him in the temple sitting in the midst of the doctors and hearing and asking them questions. And all men paid heed to him and marvelled how that being a young child he put to silence the elders and teachers of the people, expounding the heads of the law and the parables of the prophets. 3 And his mother Mary came near and said unto him: Child, wherefore hast thou so done unto us? behold we have sought thee sorrowing. And Jesus said unto them: Why seek ye me? know ye not that I must be in my Father's house? 4 But the scribes and Pharisees said: Art thou the mother of this child? and she said: I am. And they said unto her: Blessed art thou among women because God hath blessed the fruit of thy womb. For such glory and such excellence and wisdom we have neither seen nor heard at any time. 5 And Jesus arose and followed his mother and was subject unto his parents: but his mother kept in mind all that came to pass. And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature and grace. Unto him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

No where in that whole text does it imply that;

Then, the Pharisees slaps a bit of reality of into him, as well. Then he saw the error of his ways.

It was always him, and his divine grace that was teaching them.

 

[Meriweather]

our savior is amazing

He is amazing.

Again, the oldest written copy still in existence of the Thomas gospel dates much later, and we don't know what editing/additions may have taken place. Christian and Indian tradition have the Apostle in India in 52; dying mid 70s. Was it the Apostle, or a Christian with the same name? Open for debate. Some try to date it as early as the 40s. This seems off for the Apostle as well: In five years he went from being Jewish, to following Christ, to becoming Gnostic.

There are some who argue that perhaps John's Gospel (around 90-100) was actually responding to what Thomas wrote at about the same time. IF Thomas the Apostle had gone to India, he was dead well before that time.

What we do know from John's Gospel and Paul's letters that Gnostics (a religious group in place well before Christ) did seem to interpret his teachings to fit Gnostic beliefs. Obviously both John and Paul (and the early Church in Jerusalem) were against these interpretations. We also know that James wasn't very happy with how some were interpreting Paul's teachings, either.

Today, there are more than 45,000 Christian denominations globally. It appears many denominations were a fact from the beginning, which makes for an interesting study in human dynamics and how little it changes throughout the ages.

 

[TNHarley]

No where in that whole text does it imply that;



It was always him, and his divine grace that was teaching them.

He explained to his mother how important he was. Then, non hesitantly, Jesus stood up and followed his mother. Because he realized she is still his mother and she was blessed by God. Humbling, seems to me.

 

[TNHarley]

the oldest written copy still in existence of the Thomas gospel dates much later

Can you provide links of the material you got this from. Again, Your claim is 2 times higher than the highest I have seen.

What we do know from John's Gospel and Paul's letters that Gnostics (a religious group in place well before Christ) did seem to interpret his teachings to fit Gnostic beliefs.

That doesnt make it gnostic. Interpretations doesnt change what something actually is.

human dynamics and how little it changes throughout the ages.

Unfortunately, I agree with that.

 

[MisterBeale]

He explained to his mother how important he was. Then, non hesitantly, Jesus stood up and followed his mother. Because he realized she is still his mother and she was blessed by God. Humbling, seems to me.

From my reading, it was HIS stature that increased with THEM;

For such glory and such excellence and wisdom we have neither seen nor heard at any time

And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature and grace.

Because of HIS actions towards them, not because of theirs towards him.

 

[TNHarley]

From my reading, it was HIS stature that increased with THEM;






Because of HIS actions towards them, not because of theirs towards him.

touche

 

[Meriweather]

Can you provide links of the material you got this from. Again, Your claim is 2 times higher than the highest I have seen.

No links, just prolific reading from books and magazines over the years. Keep in mind, the same is true for any Bible book. The dates they were written do not match the date of the oldest copy in existence. Scholars have numerous ways to estimate when an account was actually written. For example, if a book has a prophecy that the Temple would fall, it is fairly certain the account was written after the Temple did fall.

As far as different dates for the oldest existing copy: Shrug. I don't know. Perhaps better dating? Perhaps a disagreement among scholars? In any event, even though it is postulation that John's Gospel argues Thomas' Gospel, we do know Origen mentioned the Thomas Gospel was a pack of lies--and Origen lived in the third century. I doubt that everything in the Thomas Gospel is a lie or in error. I imagine the Gnostic foundation was even more apparent back then than it is now. From the first, Gnostics and Christians appear to have disagreed about what Jesus meant.

 

[Meriweather]

That doesnt make it gnostic. Interpretations doesnt change what something actually is.

Are you familiar with the old journalism phrase of the "cutting room floor"? We should always be cognizant of what was chosen to include (and why), and what wasn't chosen (left on the cutting room floor).

 

[MisterBeale]

No links, just prolific reading from books and magazines over the years. Keep in mind, the same is true for any Bible book. The dates they were written do not match the date of the oldest copy in existence. Scholars have numerous ways to estimate when an account was actually written. For example, if a book has a prophecy that the Temple would fall, it is fairly certain the account was written after the Temple did fall.

As far as different dates for the oldest existing copy: Shrug. I don't know. Perhaps better dating? Perhaps a disagreement among scholars? In any event, even though it is postulation that John's Gospel argues Thomas' Gospel, we do know Origen mentioned the Thomas Gospel was a pack of lies--and Origen lived in the third century. I doubt that everything in the Thomas Gospel is a lie or in error. I imagine the Gnostic foundation was even more apparent back then than it is now. From the first, Gnostics and Christians appear to have disagreed about what Jesus meant.

There is something else, further, that you may not haven't considered, which we were taught in our theology classes at University.

What Did the Original Books of the Bible Say?

Take a trip back in time to see the obstacles we have in seeing the life of Jesus through the Bible. We’ll peel them back one by one—translations, canonicity, reliable copies, and more.

crossexaminedblog.com

Nonreligious Questions

Whether you’ve been turned off by religion in the past or have a question about one of the world’s religions, check out what Patheos has to offer.

www.patheos.com

 

[Meriweather]

There is something else, further, that you may not haven't considered, which we were taught in our theology classes at University.

May not have considered!? Ha! I've been at this for decades, talking about it in all my years here. It is almost a mantra--what was the intent of the original authors and who was the original audience (certainly not modern Western culture). I have always maintained we can't simply study the Bible with only the Holy Spirit as our guide. We need to study, languages, histories, cultures. And not only languages, but the etymologies of these languages. When we read commentaries we need to know the same about the authors of the commentaries.

In doing family genealogy, I've seen stories change through the generations. The root has always been the same, but not the branches. The same is true of one of the famous (and favorite) stories of King David. Indeed, a lad did kill Goliath, but it wasn't David. Great story all the same.

What I find ironic among some is that they read the stories, determine they either can't be factual, or interpret them is some god-awful way, and decide they are atheist. The stories are fun. Entertaining. Educational. Great authors back in that day. But I am also scientist. What I test are the ways of life presented in the Bible, does it make sense to follow the way Jesus taught (or Moses, or Solomon, etc). And it does. To me it doesn't matter if they got the stories right, what matters is they got the teachings down cold. And they did. That is what atheists miss, and so many claim science as their base. Then do the experiments, taking care to watch the variables and constants.

 

[buttercup]

I dont read stuff from zealots. I read independent sources.
Is this modern scholars, or repeating the opinions of the church fathers? Argumentum ad populum is also not a reasonable argument. Like Climate Science debate.
Im not trying to get you do my homework. I am just wanting a conversation.

I’m not claiming that because a majority believes something it must be true, I know that’s not the case. I was just asking where you get this stuff, because you made a couple claims that I haven’t heard from anyone, Christian or secular. So if you’re going to make claims that go against just about everyone, cite your sources please.

Also, you didn’t answer my question about what you were actually claiming, but it’s fine if you don’t want to continue this. You seem to have a an extreme bias against Christianity, and when people have that mindset, unfortunately it’s extremely unlikely that any amount of debating will make a difference. You need real life experiential evidence, that is what will make a difference. I’ll pray for you.

 

[TNHarley]

I’m not claiming that because a majority believes something it must be true, I know that’s not the case. I was just asking where you get this stuff, because you made a couple claims that I haven’t heard from anyone, Christian or secular. So if you’re going to make claims that go against just about everyone, cite your sources please.

Also, you didn’t answer my question about what you were actually claiming, but it’s fine if you don’t want to continue this. You seem to have a an extreme bias against Christianity, and when people have that mindset, unfortunately it’s extremely unlikely that any amount of debating will make a difference. You need real life experiential evidence, that is what will make a difference. I’ll pray for you.

I have a bias towards the abrahamic religions. Its a big joke. Judaism got ripped off from the Sumerian religion. Christianitys religion got decided by a select few humans (while the history of Jesus was ripped off from several older religions as well) and Islam is... well.. Islam. The teachings in their book is hateful, violent and oppressive.
It also blows my mind how the three worship the same god, but they are so different. That makes ZERO sense to me.
I dont really have a bias against other religions. Buddhism and Taoism is the best IMO. They focus on the individual and not some spirit or different species that live on the other side of the Universe. I also find hinduism extremely interesting. Far fetched, but consistent. Its also complicated and extremely creative.
You can pray for me if you wish. Your call.

 

[Meriweather]

I have a bias towards the abrahamic religions. Its a big joke. Judaism got ripped off from the Sumerian religion. Christianitys religion got decided by a select few humans (while the history of Jesus was ripped off from several older religions as well) and Islam is...

Isn't that like saying Homo Sapiens are a rip off from Homo Neanderthals who are a rip off from Homo Georgicus. Or like saying Calculus is a rip off from Algebra which is a rip off from arithmetic, which is a rip off from counting? Isn't our understanding of everything always evolving? Even our televisions and telephones today are quite different from the original models. People test things, retain what is true and drop what isn't. God is the most complex of all. It's going to take us some time.

 

[Meriweather]

It also blows my mind how the three worship the same god, but they are so different. That makes ZERO sense to me.

I take it you have never taught middle school. I teach the exact same lesson, and ceased being amazed years ago at three (or more) different results. People think differently--and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Over the years it has given me lots of laughs and plenty to think about.

 

[TNHarley]

Isn't that like saying Homo Sapiens are a rip off from Homo Neanderthals who are a rip off from Homo Georgicus. Or like saying Calculus is a rip off from Algebra which is a rip off from arithmetic, which is a rip off from counting? Isn't our understanding of everything always evolving? Even our televisions and telephones today are quite different from the original models. People test things, retain what is true and drop what isn't. God is the most complex of all. It's going to take us some time.

No, its nothing alike lol.
You dont think its weird how all the important events come from other religions? Jesus whole life was ripped from other deities. The backbone of judaism was ripped off from Sumerians.
Whole lotta coincidences lol

 

[TNHarley]

I take it you have never taught middle school. I teach the exact same lesson, and ceased being amazed years ago at three (or more) different results. People think differently--and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Over the years it has given me lots of laughs and plenty to think about.

Oh gosh no. I commend you for that, meriweather