Antoher "FUN" Theological question!

[Old_Liberal]

That's idiotic. Christ isn't an idol, he's the son of God. There is a difference, you know.

An idol is either a physical representation of, or a false, god.

Christ is neither a physical representation of (as in statue) a god, nor is he a false god.

Yet he has been turned into an idol. A construct of ideas to worship. That isn't the worship he was referring to, IMO.

A" representation of" can also a construction of thought.

Christ told his followers to "do not cling to me" Yet today christians cling to christ instead of doing his message. You can only cling to some sort of idol. Physical or mental, the end result is the same.

 

[koshergrl]

"A construct of ideas to worship" is not the definition of "idol".

PHYSICAL REPRESENTATION. PHYSICAL.

 

[Old_Liberal]

That's idiotic. Christ isn't an idol, he's the son of God. There is a difference, you know.

An idol is either a physical representation of, or a false, god.

Christ is neither a physical representation of (as in statue) a god, nor is he a false god.

Well on that matter of Jesus, there are Christians who think he is god. Many people are praying before statues of Jesus, much like they did with idols in the old times.

Actually Christ was God. He said as much, many times. But we are capable to all be sons of God. He said that as well, referring back to Hebrew scripture when addressed by the Jews.

You are correct that we have made Christ into an idol with statues, icons, paintings, etc.

A real follower would not do this, because of the tendency of the human brain to associate the image to the reality. They are adverse to one another, so he would not do it. IMO.

The personage of Christ, the body, the physical is of no importance. The importance lies in the fact that God resided in Christ and the man of christ allowed the Will of God to show itself in this existence, this plane of existence.

The thing is, the only way God can show himself or itself to man is through man. God can dwell on earth, through mankind. That is the grand plan, according to the bible as I read it.

 

[koshergrl]

CHRIST IS NOT AN IDOL.

The images of Christ, meh, maybe that could be argued.

You're operating on faulty logic, friend.

 

[amrchaos]

"A construct of ideas to worship" is not the definition of "idol".

PHYSICAL REPRESENTATION. PHYSICAL.

Actually, an idol does not need to be a physical construct.

It can be a figment of the imagination(an abstract idol or an imaginary god)

The benefits of such an idol is that they can not be forcibly broken.

The downside is that people tend to waver more in their beliefs if the "god" does not act immediately against transactions. Proof against such an idol is normally found by logically comparing the claims of the followers.

 

[Old_Liberal]

"A construct of ideas to worship" is not the definition of "idol".

PHYSICAL REPRESENTATION. PHYSICAL.

I am not surprised you cannot recognize this. Few do.

Did you know the ancient Jews could not even utter the name of God? He was too great to be given a human sound, in the form of a name.

What is a word before it is a sound? It is a thought. A thought based upon words. Is the word the object it refers to? Hence, the golden idol is not the supreme reality, or God, and the word or the thought that preceded it is not God.

Idols are a stumbling block because they can confuse the mind, whether it be a physical idol or a construction of thought idol. Both share a common foundation. Both are representations of that which cannot be represented. IT simply IS.

 

[koshergrl]

Few do because it's not true. We aren't Jews, we're Christians, and as Christ is neither a physical representation of a god (as the Golden Calf) nor a false god, he is not an idol.

"Idol" is not a thought, or a word. It has a definition, and it isn't what you are trying to make it.

 

[amrchaos]

Few do because it's not true. We aren't Jews, we're Christians, and as Christ is neither a physical representation of a god (as the Golden Calf) nor a false god, he is not an idol.

"Idol" is not a thought, or a word. It has a definition, and it isn't what you are trying to make it.

An "idol" is just a false god.

Of course, whose god is false depends on which religion you belong to!

 

[Old_Liberal]

CHRIST IS NOT AN IDOL.

The images of Christ, meh, maybe that could be argued.

You're operating on faulty logic, friend.

That is, I am not using the common wisdom of the world? Do you read scripture? Perhaps you do, yet there is no understanding, IMO.

There was much said about the signs that the Jews demanded, and also the wisdom of the greeks that the mind demanded. Yet both are useless if one seeks the truth of God, the ultimate reality, or whatever name one would hang on it.

One must move to a different level to understand what christ spoke of. Worldly wisdom does not lead there. If it did, the world would be there, in that kingdom. No, the path is narrow, and the wrong way is wide. And much easier, and more logical to take, that wide path.

 

[The Irish Ram]

So...do those who worship false idols follow Jewish tradition?

No , and that is exactly my point.
I would have thought that worshiping an idol to save your own life should have fallen under the 'pikuah nefesh' category. But sadly that is not the case.
I doubt that god would have wanted people to die in his name.

All those beheaded saints referred to in Rev. may beg to differ.
The disciples died for His sake.
From one of the seven churches mentioned in Rev. members who refused to deny Christ hung on crosses for as far as the eye could see.
Rome fed Christians to lions because they were Christians.
A little girl in Columbine ( with a shotgun shoved into her chest ) when asked if she believed in Jesus, said yes. She died for His sake.
There is actually a separate crown of glory for those who have sacrificed their lives for Christ.

See, this short time in our existence, is like a vapor. It's preparation for our eternal life.
It doesn't hold the same worth or importance to God as it does us. It's that we are there for the rest of our journey that is more important to God than our longevity in this clay earth garb. It's more important because phase 2 lasts FOREVER!

 

[koshergrl]

Does anyone besides me ever look up the meanings of words?

"
idol

noun \ˈī-dəl\




Definition of IDOL

1
: a representation or symbol of an object of worship; broadly : a false god

2
a : a likeness of something b obsolete : pretender, impostor

3
: a form or appearance visible but without substance <an enchanted phantom, a lifeless idol &#8212; P. B. Shelley>

4
: an object of extreme devotion <a movie idol>; also : ideal 2

5
: a false conception : fallacy "

Idol - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

I guess Christ could fall under #4..I'll have to think about it. I pray to God the Father, not God the Son, but ask forgiveness in Christ's name.

I suppose if people are mistakenly worshiping Christ rather than the Father and forswear Him to do it, then in that case, maybe Christ could be considered their idol.

But I just don't think that's correct. It doesn't feel right. I don't think revering Christ falls under idol worship. I don't think that's biblically sound.

 

[Wolverine1984]

Few do because it's not true. We aren't Jews, we're Christians, and as Christ is neither a physical representation of a god (as the Golden Calf) nor a false god, he is not an idol.

"Idol" is not a thought, or a word. It has a definition, and it isn't what you are trying to make it.

An "idol" is just a false god.

Of course, whose god is false depends on which religion you belong to!

True Indeed.

“We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.”
&#8213; Richard Dawkins

 

[koshergrl]

However if we're talking about the sin of worshiping idols, then we are referencing the Jews and the OT.

 

[amrchaos]

However if we're talking about the sin of worshiping idols, then we are referencing the Jews and the OT.

Don't you mean the Hewbrews at the base of the mountain?

Jews do not worship golden calfs, their ancestors played around with them from time to times.

Which tend to suggest that the ancient Hebrews also knew religious stories of other cultures. I wonder what they did with those stories?

 

[The Irish Ram]

CHRIST IS NOT AN IDOL.

The images of Christ, meh, maybe that could be argued.

You're operating on faulty logic, friend.

That is, I am not using the common wisdom of the world? Do you read scripture? Perhaps you do, yet there is no understanding, IMO.

There was much said about the signs that the Jews demanded, and also the wisdom of the greeks that the mind demanded. Yet both are useless if one seeks the truth of God, the ultimate reality, or whatever name one would hang on it.

One must move to a different level to understand what Christ spoke of. Worldly wisdom does not lead there. If it did, the world would be there, in that kingdom. No, the path is narrow, and the wrong way is wide. And much easier, and more logical to take, that wide path.

Some of what you said is true, narrow path and all. But wisdom, or the lack thereof, is not the boundary between Heaven and earth. If it was, Eve, after eating from the tree of knowledge would have created Heaven on earth instead of getting kicked out of Eden.
Knowledge of Heaven and Earth is a promise made by God and given freely to whomever asks for it. < It is a her according to scripture. We can stay on this level and have a perfect understanding of what Christ spoke of. He even broke what he said down to earthling level so we would understand it. He spoke in terms of trees, seeds, grafting, fishing......

 

[mskafka]

A very unlikely situation ...

But yes, I would honor their religious practices as long as those practices weren't against my own morals.

If their religion included the circumcision of women, for example, I'd stick to myself, or try to be a critical friend.

And we women heartily thank you for that.

 

[Old_Liberal]

However if we're talking about the sin of worshiping idols, then we are referencing the Jews and the OT.

Yes, they worshiped idols. They worshiped something that was not the living God. They worshiped an image.

Yet Christ clearly says that we worship God in spirit. There is no bowing, no groveling of the body. True worship is done on a spiritual level. Which means it occurs in our consciousness.

Yet Christ told us that with the death of he self, the rebirth allowed God to dwell in you, in this temple of flesh. Now think about worshiping God on the spiritual level as spoken of by Christ.

What place does this idea of Christ have in worshiping God in spirit, while God is dwelling in your fleshy temple? Where does He come in?

Now imagine yourself worshiping God in spirit, while He is residing in your temple of flesh. And remember, the self, the ego that died, is not the one worshiping God. The self is not fit to worship or even share the same space as God. When the self is, God isn't. When God is, the self isn't. Now fit in your idea of Christ as you have been taught by other men. Where does He figure in here?

Christ was nothing more than a man who was telling the world the reality of existence. He was the example that God could indeed inhabit this temple of flesh, and goodness could shine into the world. So he came and he taught the truth of reality, showed us how to be one again with the Creator, that was lost in Eden, and stuck by his guns to suffer death for his teachings. He would not have been believed if he had fled away and turned into a coward in that culture. His destiny was already written, in the Torah. So he died, and imperfect men created a religion around this man called Jesus. Yet that was not supposed to have happened, if the will of christ had been fulfilled.

Yet we have turned him into an idol, with him hanging there on the cross, dying for the world. We do not do as he told us to do. Instead we worship him, the ego, or the self worships him. And we are worshiping nothing more than an idea, an idea created by theology. That the self is doing the worshipiing is proof that no real worship is occuring.

 

[koshergrl]

However if we're talking about the sin of worshiping idols, then we are referencing the Jews and the OT.

Don't you mean the Hewbrews at the base of the mountain?

Jews do not worship golden calfs, their ancestors played around with them from time to times.

Which tend to suggest that the ancient Hebrews also knew religious stories of other cultures. I wonder what they did with those stories?

I didn't say they did worship golden calves. I said the Jews (ok Hebrews) worshipped the golden calf one memorable time.

 

[koshergrl]

However if we're talking about the sin of worshiping idols, then we are referencing the Jews and the OT.

Yes, they worshiped idols. They worshiped something that was not the living God. They worshiped an image.

Yet Christ clearly says that we worship God in spirit. There is no bowing, no groveling of the body. True worship is done on a spiritual level. Which means it occurs in our consciousness.

Yet Christ told us that with the death of he self, the rebirth allowed God to dwell in you, in this temple of flesh. Now think about worshiping God on the spiritual level as spoken of by Christ.

What place does this idea of Christ have in worshiping God in spirit, while God is dwelling in your fleshy temple? Where does He come in?

Now imagine yourself worshiping God in spirit, while He is residing in your temple of flesh. And remember, the self, the ego that died, is not the one worshiping God. The self is not fit to worship or even share the same space as God. When the self is, God isn't. When God is, the self isn't. Now fit in your idea of Christ as you have been taught by other men. Where does He figure in here?

Christ was nothing more than a man who was telling the world the reality of existence. He was the example that God could indeed inhabit this temple of flesh, and goodness could shine into the world. So he came and he taught the truth of reality, showed us how to be one again with the Creator, that was lost in Eden, and stuck by his guns to suffer death for his teachings. He would not have been believed if he had fled away and turned into a coward in that culture. His destiny was already written, in the Torah. So he died, and imperfect men created a religion around this man called Jesus. Yet that was not supposed to have happened, if the will of christ had been fulfilled.

Yet we have turned him into an idol, with him hanging there on the cross, dying for the world. We do not do as he told us to do. Instead we worship him, the ego, or the self worships him. And we are worshiping nothing more than an idea, an idea created by theology. That the self is doing the worshipiing is proof that no real worship is occuring.

Ok, I give up. Obviously your brain is thoroughly washed.

 

[Old_Liberal]

CHRIST IS NOT AN IDOL.

The images of Christ, meh, maybe that could be argued.

You're operating on faulty logic, friend.

That is, I am not using the common wisdom of the world? Do you read scripture? Perhaps you do, yet there is no understanding, IMO.

There was much said about the signs that the Jews demanded, and also the wisdom of the greeks that the mind demanded. Yet both are useless if one seeks the truth of God, the ultimate reality, or whatever name one would hang on it.

One must move to a different level to understand what Christ spoke of. Worldly wisdom does not lead there. If it did, the world would be there, in that kingdom. No, the path is narrow, and the wrong way is wide. And much easier, and more logical to take, that wide path.

Some of what you said is true, narrow path and all. But wisdom, or the lack thereof, is not the boundary between Heaven and earth. If it was, Eve, after eating from the tree of knowledge would have created Heaven on earth instead of getting kicked out of Eden.
Knowledge of Heaven and Earth is a promise made by God and given freely to whomever asks for it. < It is a her according to scripture. We can stay on this level and have a perfect understanding of what Christ spoke of. He even broke what he said down to earthling level so we would understand it. He spoke in terms of trees, seeds, grafting, fishing......

You must misunderstand. It is my writing, and the lack of skill.

I think that the fall in the garden speaks of the creation of the self, the ego, as a separate entity from that which is. The observer and the observed came into existence. And this of course involves self consciousness.

From the observer and the observed arose great achievements over time. In all sorts of areas, from philosophy to tecnhology. This separation was a powerful tool, it achieved so much, and it became our reality. We know of no other reality. Yet there is another reality, and that reality is what Christ told us about. And that other reality has always been here, within reach, but the SELF cannot reach it. No amount of straining will accomplish anything, in fact, it pushed IT away.

That other reality is ALL that existed in man before the separation of the observer and the observed, the rise of self consciousness. This other reality is referred to as God, because this other reality is God, or whatever name you would want to call it. What it is called is of no importance. All that you can say is, it just IS. Yet amazing things come from this IS-NESS. This is-ness is a very pregnant is-ness. From IT all things arise.

Yet this that is in all of us is not given importance, and its very existence is covered up by the existence of the self that does not see itself as an illusion, a creation of thought.

Christ was therefore the second Adam. The One that reconciled man to God by his example while teaching how to enter again into the kingdom lost by Adam and everyone after Adam.