Another Liberal myth: Separation of church and state is not in the constitution

[koshergrl]

The church stood against the slavery of CHRISTIANS in the middle ages, before anybody protested slavery at all.

There were a few higher ups who sort of supported it in a lukewarm way here and there, but for the most part, the Christian church has always been pretty adamant that slavery isn't a good thing.

And Christians ran the underground railroad, and risked their lives to free slaves before and during the civil war. The abolitionists were almost without exception, Christian.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Many of the southern Christians would tell koshergirl she is not speaking for them back before 1860.

The larger evangelical denominations split into southern and northern wings over the matter. It has been only the last several years that the Southern Baptists officially apologized for being out of step with Christ's gospel and being in support of Negro chattel slavery.

 

[koshergrl]

"Operating without formal organization, participants in the Underground Railroad included both white and black abolitionists, enslaved African Americans, American Indians, and members of such religious groups as the Quakers, Methodists, and Baptists. "

Underground Railroad American Civil War History

"Abolitionism (from "abolish") was a political movement in late eighteenth and nineteenth centuries that sought to end the practice of slavery and the worldwide slave trade. Its chief impetus came from Protestantism, as most abolitionists, especially in Great Britain and America, were men and women of profound Christian faith who took their convictions from the Gospel that all people are equal before God."

Abolitionism - New World Encyclopedia

 

[koshergrl]

"At the behest of Dominican priest Bartolomé de las Casas who was shocked at the treatment of natives in the New World, Spain enacted the first European law abolishing colonial slavery in 1542, although it was not to last (to 1545). In the 17th century, Quaker and evangelical religious groups condemned it as un-Christian; in the 18th century, rationalist thinkers of the Enlightenment criticized it for violating the rights of man."

Abolitionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Gadawg73]

Correction to Gadawg's version of history. There were certainly some American congregations comprised of members who mostly supported slavery, but history will show that most of the church opposed slavery, supported abolition, and if it were not for Christians being active in that process and pushing hard for it, it almost certainly would not have happened as soon as it did.

There are NO predominantly Christian nations now who support slavery or segregation. There are numerous non-Christian nations who practice slavery whether or not they call it that.

Who, when and where?
Something about having to prove your claims.

 

[Gadawg73]

Correction to Gadawg's version of history. There were certainly some American congregations comprised of members who mostly supported slavery, but history will show that most of the church opposed slavery, supported abolition, and if it were not for Christians being active in that process and pushing hard for it, it almost certainly would not have happened as soon as it did.

There are NO predominantly Christian nations now who support slavery or segregation. There are numerous non-Christian nations who practice slavery whether or not they call it that.

And of course the equality idea stems from the Old Testament doctrine that all of us are created in God's image.

The Old Testament sure did a lot of good for American slaves for the 250 years they were in bondage before they were freed.
Where were all these so called "Christians" over those 250 years?
Reading the Old Testament while sitting on the commode with a smoke?
You folks sure are funny.

 

[Sallow]

Correction to Gadawg's version of history. There were certainly some American congregations comprised of members who mostly supported slavery, but history will show that most of the church opposed slavery, supported abolition, and if it were not for Christians being active in that process and pushing hard for it, it almost certainly would not have happened as soon as it did.

There are NO predominantly Christian nations now who support slavery or segregation. There are numerous non-Christian nations who practice slavery whether or not they call it that.

And of course the equality idea stems from the Old Testament doctrine that all of us are created in God's image.

The old testament also advocates for slavery, cannibalism and genocide.

 

[koshergrl]

Did you guys just not bother reading all the information posted about abolition and the historic protests of slavery?

Or do you disregard history that runs afoul of your own bias?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

"When the government puts its imprimatur on a particular religion it conveys a message of exclusion to all those who do not adhere to the favored beliefs. A government cannot be premised on the belief that all persons are created equal when it asserts that God prefers some." Supreme Court Justice Harry A. Blackmun, Lee v. Weisman (1992).

As eminent church-state scholar Leo Pfeffer notes in his book, Church, State and Freedom, "It is true, of course, that the phrase 'separation of church and state' does not appear in the Constitution. But it was inevitable that some convenient term should come into existence to verbalize a principle so clearly and widely held by the American people....[T]he right to a fair trial is generally accepted to be a constitutional principle; yet the term 'fair trial' is not found in the Constitution. To bring the point even closer home, who would deny that 'religious liberty' is a constitutional principle? Yet that phrase too is not in the Constitution. The universal acceptance which all these terms, including 'separation of church and state,' have received in America would seem to confirm rather than disparage their reality as basic American democratic principles."

Thus, it is entirely appropriate to speak of the "constitutional principle of church-state separation" since that phrase summarizes what the First Amendment's religion clauses do-they separate church and state.

Separation of Church and State

 

[Foxfyre]

Correction to Gadawg's version of history. There were certainly some American congregations comprised of members who mostly supported slavery, but history will show that most of the church opposed slavery, supported abolition, and if it were not for Christians being active in that process and pushing hard for it, it almost certainly would not have happened as soon as it did.

There are NO predominantly Christian nations now who support slavery or segregation. There are numerous non-Christian nations who practice slavery whether or not they call it that.

Who, when and where?
Something about having to prove your claims.

Why? You haven't proved yours.

 

[Foxfyre]

Did you guys just not bother reading all the information posted about abolition and the historic protests of slavery?

Or do you disregard history that runs afoul of your own bias?

Of course they aren't reading it and of course they disregard any history that doesn't fit their evil Christian/conservative motif. To do so would require them to a) admit they were wrong or b) confess to being intentionally prejudiced against Christians or c) take down the straw men they keep building as diversions from the more informed arguments.

 

[Intense]

Correction to Gadawg's version of history. There were certainly some American congregations comprised of members who mostly supported slavery, but history will show that most of the church opposed slavery, supported abolition, and if it were not for Christians being active in that process and pushing hard for it, it almost certainly would not have happened as soon as it did.

There are NO predominantly Christian nations now who support slavery or segregation. There are numerous non-Christian nations who practice slavery whether or not they call it that.

And of course the equality idea stems from the Old Testament doctrine that all of us are created in God's image.

The old testament also advocates for slavery, cannibalism and genocide.

Most of recorded history did Sallow.

The Code of Hammurabi
The Code of Hammurabi ~1700 BCE

 

[Gadawg73]

I hear over and over and over and over again:
"This nation was founded on Christian principles"
"The Founders all practiced those Christian principles and society followed"
Ok, then how come slavery was accepted, supported and flourished with the full support of ALL OF THE FOUNDERS?
Name one of the founders that stood up, stated that slavery was unChristian and fought it.
I will wait until hell freezes over for an answer.
The fact is that The Church of England, IN ENGLAND, led the abolitionist movement over there as their government, the monarchy, was heavily influenced by THE CHURCH.
The Founders did not want that influence in government, were the liberals and radicals of their day, fought and defeated the church backed Torries and red coats and continued slavery for ANOTHER 190 YEARS.
Being the men of "Christian principles" they were.

 

[Intense]

Did you guys just not bother reading all the information posted about abolition and the historic protests of slavery?

Or do you disregard history that runs afoul of your own bias?

Of course they aren't reading it and of course they disregard any history that doesn't fit their evil Christian/conservative motif. To do so would require them to a) admit they were wrong or b) confess to being intentionally prejudiced against Christians or c) take down the straw men they keep building as diversions from the more informed arguments.

Exactly.

 

[Foxfyre]

I hear over and over and over and over again:
"This nation was founded on Christian principles"
"The Founders all practiced those Christian principles and society followed"
Ok, then how come slavery was accepted, supported and flourished with the full support of ALL OF THE FOUNDERS?
Name one of the founders that stood up, stated that slavery was unChristian and fought it.
I will wait until hell freezes over for an answer.
The fact is that The Church of England, IN ENGLAND, led the abolitionist movement over there as their government, the monarchy, was heavily influenced by THE CHURCH.
The Founders did not want that influence in government, were the liberals and radicals of their day, fought and defeated the church backed Torries and red coats and continued slavery for ANOTHER 190 YEARS.
Being the men of "Christian principles" they were.

The nation was founded on Christian principles. All you have to do is read the writings of the Foundes to see that. It is quite a bit of reading but not that all difficult for those who wish to be informed.

Nobody has argued that it was because the Founders practiced those principles that the nation followed. It is because the Founders believed, taught, and faught for those principles, many at great risk of their lives and material possessions, that we enjoy the blessings of liberty those principles made possible for us.

You REALLY show your ignorance when you think slavery was supported by ALL the Founders. For instance both John Adams and John Quincy Adam were passionate in their opposition to slavery as were. . . . .well, you have chosen not to read all the good research re abolition that some of our friends here have provided, so I won't bother to attempt to educate you. There is no way to penetrate intentional intellectual blindness.

But for those who prefer truth to indefensible prejudice

Benjamin Franklin explained that this separation from Britain was necessary since every attempt among the Colonies to end slavery had been thwarted or reversed by the British Crown. In fact, in the years following America's separation from Great Britain, many of the Founding Fathers who had owned slaves released them (e.g., John Dickinson, Ceasar Rodney, William Livingston, George Washington, George Wythe, John Randolph, and others).

It is true, however, that not all of the Founders from the South opposed slavery. According to the testimony of Thomas Jefferson, John Rutledge, and James Madison, those from North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia favored slavery.

Nevertheless, despite the support in those states for slavery, the clear majority of the Founders was opposed to this evil—and their support went beyond words.

For example, in 1774, Benjamin Franklin and Benjamin Rush founded America's first antislavery society; John Jay was president of a similar society in New York. When Constitution signer William Livingston heard of the New York society, he, as Governor of New Jersey, wrote them, offering:

“I would most ardently wish to become a member of it [the society in New York] and… I can safely promise them that neither my tongue, nor my pen, nor purse shall be wanting to promote the abolition of what to me appears so inconsistent with humanity and Christianity… May the great and the equal Father of the human race, who has expressly declared His abhorrence of oppression, and that He is no respecter of persons, succeed a design so laudably calculated to undo the heavy burdens, to let the oppressed go free, and to break every yoke.”

Other prominent Founding Fathers who were members of societies for ending slavery included Richard Bassett, James Madison, James Monroe, Bushrod Washington, Charles Carroll, William Few, John Marshall, Richard Stockton, Zephaniah Swift, and many more.

In fact, based in part on the efforts of these Founders, Pennsylvania and Massachusetts abolished slavery in 1780; Connecticut and Rhode Island did so in 1784; New Hampshire in 1792; Vermont in 1793; New York in 1799; and New Jersey in 1804. Furthermore, the reason that the states of Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Iowa all prohibited slavery was a federal act authored by Rufus King (signer of the Constitution) and signed into law by President George Washington which prohibited slavery in those territories.
Founding Fathers and Slavery - Were all of America's Founding Fathers racists, pro-slavery, and hypocrites?And etc. etc. etc. etc.

Because there were some states that would not agree to the abolishment of slavery--these were a distinct minority but were still important to the whole--the Founders, some reluctantly, would not sacrifice the concept of a new Republic based on the principle of God given unalienable rights rather than form it without those southern states. So that issue was not settled but set aside during the process of drafting and ratifying the Constitution, but the abolitionists never stopped speaking against slavery and working for its demise.

You condemn the Founders who came out of a culture in which the entire world accepted and practiced slavery including England, Canada, Mexico et al. It would be mostly Christians who in the end made the practice uncommon and effectively wiped it out in the free world.

I know that doesn't fit your anti-Christian motif, and I have no power to break through anybody's prejudices and bigotry, but those willing to educate themselves will see the truth of it.

So passionately Christian, using Christian principles to give birth to and govern a great nation has provided more freedom, opportunity, options, and possibilities than the world has ever known. . . .all that, and yet no theocracy developed.

And that is an amazing thing.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

From: Legacy Of Freedom by Rob Boston, Church and State, January, 2003. "Jefferson, Madison And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep It?"

When asked about their support for separation of church and state specifically, most people back the concept. However, many seem to have difficulty accepting application of the concept in specific cases.

Also alarming is the fact that some opinion polls have shown that as many as 25 percent a full quarter of our people don't agree with the concept of separation of church and state at all. Obviously this is a minority view, but it means that a full quarter of our population, tens of millions of people, don't believe we should separate church and state.

What system, it is fair to ask, are these people prepared to substitute instead? A merger of church and state? Which church? By what mechanism? Unfortunately, public opinion polls are not the proper venue to pose questions like this. Therefore, except for the rantings of extremists like Christian Reconstructionists, who propose a state based on Old Testament law, the questions remain unanswered and we don't know what this 25 percent would do.

What the Religious Right doesn't tell people, and what, tragically, many Americans apparently don't know, is that when it comes to determining what the laws of the United States mean, the only document that matters is the Constitution. The Constitution, a completely secular document, contains no references to God, Jesus or Christianity. It says absolutely nothing about the United States being officially Christian. The Religious Right's constant appeals to documents like the Declaration of Independence, which contains a deistic reference to "the Creator," cloud the issue and make some people believe their rights spring from these other documents.

Special Book Excerpt: Legacy Of Freedom | Americans United

And just as the Constitution is the only document that matters with regard to the law of the United States, so to is its case law as determined by the Supreme Court. As the Court has established the doctrine of separation of church and State, it is indeed part of the Constitution.

 

[Moonglow]

I hear over and over and over and over again:
"This nation was founded on Christian principles"
"The Founders all practiced those Christian principles and society followed"
Ok, then how come slavery was accepted, supported and flourished with the full support of ALL OF THE FOUNDERS?
Name one of the founders that stood up, stated that slavery was unChristian and fought it.
I will wait until hell freezes over for an answer.
The fact is that The Church of England, IN ENGLAND, led the abolitionist movement over there as their government, the monarchy, was heavily influenced by THE CHURCH.
The Founders did not want that influence in government, were the liberals and radicals of their day, fought and defeated the church backed Torries and red coats and continued slavery for ANOTHER 190 YEARS.
Being the men of "Christian principles" they were.

The nation was founded on Christian principles. All you have to do is read the writings of the Foundes to see that. It is quite a bit of reading but not that all difficult for those who wish to be informed.

Nobody has argued that it was because the Founders practiced those principles that the nation followed. It is because the Founders believed, taught, and faught for those principles, many at great risk of their lives and material possessions, that we enjoy the blessings of liberty those principles made possible for us.

You REALLY show your ignorance when you think slavery was supported by ALL the Founders. For instance both John Adams and John Quincy Adam were passionate in their opposition to slavery as were. . . . .well, you have chosen not to read all the good research re abolition that some of our friends here have provided, so I won't bother to attempt to educate you. There is no way to penetrate intentional intellectual blindness.

But for those who prefer truth to indefensible prejudice

Benjamin Franklin explained that this separation from Britain was necessary since every attempt among the Colonies to end slavery had been thwarted or reversed by the British Crown. In fact, in the years following America's separation from Great Britain, many of the Founding Fathers who had owned slaves released them (e.g., John Dickinson, Ceasar Rodney, William Livingston, George Washington, George Wythe, John Randolph, and others).

It is true, however, that not all of the Founders from the South opposed slavery. According to the testimony of Thomas Jefferson, John Rutledge, and James Madison, those from North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia favored slavery.

Nevertheless, despite the support in those states for slavery, the clear majority of the Founders was opposed to this evil—and their support went beyond words.

For example, in 1774, Benjamin Franklin and Benjamin Rush founded America's first antislavery society; John Jay was president of a similar society in New York. When Constitution signer William Livingston heard of the New York society, he, as Governor of New Jersey, wrote them, offering:

“I would most ardently wish to become a member of it [the society in New York] and… I can safely promise them that neither my tongue, nor my pen, nor purse shall be wanting to promote the abolition of what to me appears so inconsistent with humanity and Christianity… May the great and the equal Father of the human race, who has expressly declared His abhorrence of oppression, and that He is no respecter of persons, succeed a design so laudably calculated to undo the heavy burdens, to let the oppressed go free, and to break every yoke.”

Other prominent Founding Fathers who were members of societies for ending slavery included Richard Bassett, James Madison, James Monroe, Bushrod Washington, Charles Carroll, William Few, John Marshall, Richard Stockton, Zephaniah Swift, and many more.

In fact, based in part on the efforts of these Founders, Pennsylvania and Massachusetts abolished slavery in 1780; Connecticut and Rhode Island did so in 1784; New Hampshire in 1792; Vermont in 1793; New York in 1799; and New Jersey in 1804. Furthermore, the reason that the states of Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Iowa all prohibited slavery was a federal act authored by Rufus King (signer of the Constitution) and signed into law by President George Washington which prohibited slavery in those territories.
Founding Fathers and Slavery - Were all of America's Founding Fathers racists, pro-slavery, and hypocrites?And etc. etc. etc. etc.

Because there were some states that would not agree to the abolishment of slavery--these were a distinct minority but were still important to the whole--the Founders, some reluctantly, would not sacrifice the concept of a new Republic based on the principle of God given unalienable rights rather than form it without those southern states. So that issue was not settled but set aside during the process of drafting and ratifying the Constitution, but the abolitionists never stopped speaking against slavery and working for its demise.

You condemn the Founders who came out of a culture in which the entire world accepted and practiced slavery including England, Canada, Mexico et al. It would be mostly Christians who in the end made the practice uncommon and effectively wiped it out in the free world.

I know that doesn't fit your anti-Christian motif, and I have no power to break through anybody's prejudices and bigotry, but those willing to educate themselves will see the truth of it.

So passionately Christian, using Christian principles to give birth to and govern a great nation has provided more freedom, opportunity, options, and possibilities than the world has ever known. . . .all that, and yet no theocracy developed.

And that is an amazing thing.

What Christian principles allowed the practice of genocide on the Native Americans?

 

[Intense]

"When the government puts its imprimatur on a particular religion it conveys a message of exclusion to all those who do not adhere to the favored beliefs. A government cannot be premised on the belief that all persons are created equal when it asserts that God prefers some." Supreme Court Justice Harry A. Blackmun, Lee v. Weisman (1992).

As eminent church-state scholar Leo Pfeffer notes in his book, Church, State and Freedom, "It is true, of course, that the phrase 'separation of church and state' does not appear in the Constitution. But it was inevitable that some convenient term should come into existence to verbalize a principle so clearly and widely held by the American people....[T]he right to a fair trial is generally accepted to be a constitutional principle; yet the term 'fair trial' is not found in the Constitution. To bring the point even closer home, who would deny that 'religious liberty' is a constitutional principle? Yet that phrase too is not in the Constitution. The universal acceptance which all these terms, including 'separation of church and state,' have received in America would seem to confirm rather than disparage their reality as basic American democratic principles."

Thus, it is entirely appropriate to speak of the "constitutional principle of church-state separation" since that phrase summarizes what the First Amendment's religion clauses do-they separate church and state.

Separation of Church and State

You are distinguishing between the Church and Government, not God and Government. There is Principle, there is Dogma. The concept of God is solicited under countless brands.
In truth, what many of us are arguing not over the Protection of Religious Freedom, but what exactly the meaning of Freedom of Religion, Freedom of Worship means.

If it is the Intention of the Federal Government to obstruct the Freedom of Religion and the Freedom of Worship, and Prayer, on Public or Government Lands, Maybe those lands should immediately be returned to the respective States, and Leased to the Federal Government with the understanding that In leasing such lands, it forfeits all control in the matter. The States should amend their Constitutions to better facilitate the needs of their People. Any Contradiction in Constitutional Amendment on the matter should be nullified.

 

[Intense]

I hear over and over and over and over again:
"This nation was founded on Christian principles"
"The Founders all practiced those Christian principles and society followed"
Ok, then how come slavery was accepted, supported and flourished with the full support of ALL OF THE FOUNDERS?
Name one of the founders that stood up, stated that slavery was unChristian and fought it.
I will wait until hell freezes over for an answer.
The fact is that The Church of England, IN ENGLAND, led the abolitionist movement over there as their government, the monarchy, was heavily influenced by THE CHURCH.
The Founders did not want that influence in government, were the liberals and radicals of their day, fought and defeated the church backed Torries and red coats and continued slavery for ANOTHER 190 YEARS.
Being the men of "Christian principles" they were.

The nation was founded on Christian principles. All you have to do is read the writings of the Foundes to see that. It is quite a bit of reading but not that all difficult for those who wish to be informed.

Nobody has argued that it was because the Founders practiced those principles that the nation followed. It is because the Founders believed, taught, and faught for those principles, many at great risk of their lives and material possessions, that we enjoy the blessings of liberty those principles made possible for us.

You REALLY show your ignorance when you think slavery was supported by ALL the Founders. For instance both John Adams and John Quincy Adam were passionate in their opposition to slavery as were. . . . .well, you have chosen not to read all the good research re abolition that some of our friends here have provided, so I won't bother to attempt to educate you. There is no way to penetrate intentional intellectual blindness.

But for those who prefer truth to indefensible prejudice

Benjamin Franklin explained that this separation from Britain was necessary since every attempt among the Colonies to end slavery had been thwarted or reversed by the British Crown. In fact, in the years following America's separation from Great Britain, many of the Founding Fathers who had owned slaves released them (e.g., John Dickinson, Ceasar Rodney, William Livingston, George Washington, George Wythe, John Randolph, and others).

It is true, however, that not all of the Founders from the South opposed slavery. According to the testimony of Thomas Jefferson, John Rutledge, and James Madison, those from North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia favored slavery.

Nevertheless, despite the support in those states for slavery, the clear majority of the Founders was opposed to this evil—and their support went beyond words.

For example, in 1774, Benjamin Franklin and Benjamin Rush founded America's first antislavery society; John Jay was president of a similar society in New York. When Constitution signer William Livingston heard of the New York society, he, as Governor of New Jersey, wrote them, offering:

“I would most ardently wish to become a member of it [the society in New York] and… I can safely promise them that neither my tongue, nor my pen, nor purse shall be wanting to promote the abolition of what to me appears so inconsistent with humanity and Christianity… May the great and the equal Father of the human race, who has expressly declared His abhorrence of oppression, and that He is no respecter of persons, succeed a design so laudably calculated to undo the heavy burdens, to let the oppressed go free, and to break every yoke.”

Other prominent Founding Fathers who were members of societies for ending slavery included Richard Bassett, James Madison, James Monroe, Bushrod Washington, Charles Carroll, William Few, John Marshall, Richard Stockton, Zephaniah Swift, and many more.

In fact, based in part on the efforts of these Founders, Pennsylvania and Massachusetts abolished slavery in 1780; Connecticut and Rhode Island did so in 1784; New Hampshire in 1792; Vermont in 1793; New York in 1799; and New Jersey in 1804. Furthermore, the reason that the states of Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Iowa all prohibited slavery was a federal act authored by Rufus King (signer of the Constitution) and signed into law by President George Washington which prohibited slavery in those territories.
Founding Fathers and Slavery - Were all of America's Founding Fathers racists, pro-slavery, and hypocrites?And etc. etc. etc. etc.

Because there were some states that would not agree to the abolishment of slavery--these were a distinct minority but were still important to the whole--the Founders, some reluctantly, would not sacrifice the concept of a new Republic based on the principle of God given unalienable rights rather than form it without those southern states. So that issue was not settled but set aside during the process of drafting and ratifying the Constitution, but the abolitionists never stopped speaking against slavery and working for its demise.

You condemn the Founders who came out of a culture in which the entire world accepted and practiced slavery including England, Canada, Mexico et al. It would be mostly Christians who in the end made the practice uncommon and effectively wiped it out in the free world.

I know that doesn't fit your anti-Christian motif, and I have no power to break through anybody's prejudices and bigotry, but those willing to educate themselves will see the truth of it.

So passionately Christian, using Christian principles to give birth to and govern a great nation has provided more freedom, opportunity, options, and possibilities than the world has ever known. . . .all that, and yet no theocracy developed.

And that is an amazing thing.

What Christian principles allowed the practice of genocide on the Native Americans?

What Christian Principles? I can't think of one.

Hypocrisy, Greed, Selfishness, Hate, Prejudice, are not Christian Principles. Their was nothing Christian about the Trail Of Tears.

 

[Foxfyre]

The nation was founded on Christian principles. All you have to do is read the writings of the Foundes to see that. It is quite a bit of reading but not that all difficult for those who wish to be informed.

Nobody has argued that it was because the Founders practiced those principles that the nation followed. It is because the Founders believed, taught, and faught for those principles, many at great risk of their lives and material possessions, that we enjoy the blessings of liberty those principles made possible for us.

You REALLY show your ignorance when you think slavery was supported by ALL the Founders. For instance both John Adams and John Quincy Adam were passionate in their opposition to slavery as were. . . . .well, you have chosen not to read all the good research re abolition that some of our friends here have provided, so I won't bother to attempt to educate you. There is no way to penetrate intentional intellectual blindness.

But for those who prefer truth to indefensible prejudice



Because there were some states that would not agree to the abolishment of slavery--these were a distinct minority but were still important to the whole--the Founders, some reluctantly, would not sacrifice the concept of a new Republic based on the principle of God given unalienable rights rather than form it without those southern states. So that issue was not settled but set aside during the process of drafting and ratifying the Constitution, but the abolitionists never stopped speaking against slavery and working for its demise.

You condemn the Founders who came out of a culture in which the entire world accepted and practiced slavery including England, Canada, Mexico et al. It would be mostly Christians who in the end made the practice uncommon and effectively wiped it out in the free world.

I know that doesn't fit your anti-Christian motif, and I have no power to break through anybody's prejudices and bigotry, but those willing to educate themselves will see the truth of it.

So passionately Christian, using Christian principles to give birth to and govern a great nation has provided more freedom, opportunity, options, and possibilities than the world has ever known. . . .all that, and yet no theocracy developed.

And that is an amazing thing.

What Christian principles allowed the practice of genocide on the Native Americans?

What Christian Principles? I can't think of one.

Hypocrisy, Greed, Selfishness, Hate, Prejudice, are not Christian Principles. Their was nothing Christian about the Trail Of Tears.

Exactly. Another strawman our esteemed leftist friends build to use as diversion from the point that the Founders built a nation on Christian principles but made certain that no religious group, Christian or not, would have power over any other religious group nor would the federal government have any power over any person or group respective to religion. A Christian nation built on Christian principles that was not a theocracy. Not a Christian nation but a nation of mostly Christian people.

As we have already shown, the Founders were mostly abolitionists when it came to slavery, but they would not allow slavery to kill the new nation. The legacy of those same Founders were people of like mind who eventually were able to end slavery. And most of them did so because of their Christian values.

Oppression of black people, Native Americans, the Chinese, the Italians, the Irish, and any number of other groups in this country did not arise out of Christian values but were the antithesis of Christian principles. And in my opinion, it was mostly Christian influence within the fabric of our society that has accomplished the tolerance and acceptance that we enjoy today.