Annexing West Bank

[Coyote]

RE: Annexing West Bank
⁜→ Coyote, et al,

Maybe this is true. Maybe not.

During that time there were many expulsions....Arabs expelled Jews and Jews expelled Arabs. There was also a lot of myth building by both sides. This occurred close to a century ago....when you think of it. Ethics have changed.

Would you really support forcing millions of families to leave their homeland? I wouldn’t.

(COMMENT)

There was not that much difference in time between the mass internment of Japanese Americans (1942-1946) during World War II. → Then, the mass displacement of various inhabitants in Palestine (1947 - 1949). Neither of which came even close to the 12 to 16 Million displaced during the 1947 Partition of India and Pakistan.

There is a world of difference when discussing morals and ethics in the academic and hypothetical → and then when it comes down to the experience of the real thing.

Most Respectfully,
R

Exactly!

 

[Shusha]

Nationality is hereditary.

Absolutely untrue. Nationality is determined by the laws of the nation offering nationality and citizenship and governed solely by that nation.

 

[Shusha]

Should we encourage Jews to leave too? Voluntarily?

By placing restrictions on where Jews are permitted to live, you already are.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

We agree on this one. The tendency to pile on with agreement when nobody is supporting their opinions is a sad fact on message boards. You and I can disagree on Palestine and Israel, but the fact that you sympathize with the Palestinians in no may means that you hate the Jews as has been suggested. I find that extrapolation to be ridiculous.

And the fact that I think the Palestinians have refused myriad opportunities to compromise on a peace plan and/or have violated agreements and they have pretty well forfeited their claim to that land does not mean I hate the Palestinians.

The best solution now is for the UN to find and buy a nice piece of land approximately the size of Israel and move the Palestinians there. Islam will never agree to that, however, as it would remove their ability to use the Palestinians for political purposes in their ultimate goal which is to destroy Israel and the Jews.

Foxie, you can not forceably move millians of people who have roots, families and ties to that region going back hundreds if not thousands of years. It isnt a question of whether Islam would accept but it but whether any decent human being could accept it.

It would be difficult for sure. But when a people will not compromise, will not agree that the Jews should be allowed to live, and who consistently initiate deadly hostilities with the Jews after seventy years of working to accommodate those same people, it is time to stop trying and do something that will work. The Jews also have roots, families, and ties to that region going back much further than Islam does. And it is Islam that objects to Israel, not the rank and file population per se'. Israel deserves to be left alone and live as who and what they are in peace. They do not initiate the hostilities but they do finish the fights. They would like to not have to have the fights.

The Arabs expelled almost all Jews from their countries and have refused to allow the Palestinians to immigrate to their countries and the Israelis would be committing literal suicide if they do. So we should go for the next best solution to the problem.

During that time there were many expulsions....Arabs expelled Jews and Jews expelled Arabs. There was also a lot of myth building by both sides. This occurred close to a century ago....when you think of it. Ethics have changed.

Would you really support forcing millions of families to leave their homeland? I wouldn’t.

Millions have done it. Look at how America was built. This is the only peaceful solution I see.

America was built on the back of slavery.

Forced expulsions are not peaceful solutions otherwise you would have no problem applying it to Jews as well.

Slavery was only in the South. Built on innovation and mass immigration. You should take a history class.

 

[Shusha]

There is also a disturbing trend that seems to equate anything less than a 100% blind support of the rightwing vision of Israel with a form of treason.

I strongly disagree with this.

 

[Shusha]

RE: Annexing West Bank
⁜→ Coyote, et al,

Maybe this is true. Maybe not.

During that time there were many expulsions....Arabs expelled Jews and Jews expelled Arabs. There was also a lot of myth building by both sides. This occurred close to a century ago....when you think of it. Ethics have changed.

Would you really support forcing millions of families to leave their homeland? I wouldn’t.

(COMMENT)

There was not that much difference in time between the mass internment of Japanese Americans (1942-1946) during World War II. → Then, the mass displacement of various inhabitants in Palestine (1947 - 1949). Neither of which came even close to the 12 to 16 Million displaced during the 1947 Partition of India and Pakistan.

There is a world of difference when discussing morals and ethics in the academic and hypothetical → and then when it comes down to the experience of the real thing.

What many people think is "unthinkable" today -- is just the way things were done (normal) in that era.

Most Respectfully,
R

And its viewed as normal. Everywhere but Israel. Where is the demand for right of return in India and Pakistan?

 

[Coyote]

RE: Annexing West Bank
⁜→ Coyote, et al,

Maybe this is true. Maybe not.

During that time there were many expulsions....Arabs expelled Jews and Jews expelled Arabs. There was also a lot of myth building by both sides. This occurred close to a century ago....when you think of it. Ethics have changed.

Would you really support forcing millions of families to leave their homeland? I wouldn’t.

(COMMENT)

There was not that much difference in time between the mass internment of Japanese Americans (1942-1946) during World War II. → Then, the mass displacement of various inhabitants in Palestine (1947 - 1949). Neither of which came even close to the 12 to 16 Million displaced during the 1947 Partition of India and Pakistan.

There is a world of difference when discussing morals and ethics in the academic and hypothetical → and then when it comes down to the experience of the real thing.

What many people think is "unthinkable" today -- is just the way things were done (normal) in that era.

Most Respectfully,
R

Well...history is written by the victors and the prevailing narrative has been that they fled at the urging of their leaders. But the opening of historical archives in Israel painted a different picture. Many left either through fear of war Atrocities were committed by both sides) or were forceably expelled by militias. The expulsion of the Palestinians re-examined

 

[Coyote]

RE: Annexing West Bank
⁜→ Coyote, et al,

Maybe this is true. Maybe not.

During that time there were many expulsions....Arabs expelled Jews and Jews expelled Arabs. There was also a lot of myth building by both sides. This occurred close to a century ago....when you think of it. Ethics have changed.

Would you really support forcing millions of families to leave their homeland? I wouldn’t.

(COMMENT)

There was not that much difference in time between the mass internment of Japanese Americans (1942-1946) during World War II. → Then, the mass displacement of various inhabitants in Palestine (1947 - 1949). Neither of which came even close to the 12 to 16 Million displaced during the 1947 Partition of India and Pakistan.

There is a world of difference when discussing morals and ethics in the academic and hypothetical → and then when it comes down to the experience of the real thing.

What many people think is "unthinkable" today -- is just the way things were done (normal) in that era.

Most Respectfully,
R

And its viewed as normal. Everywhere but Israel. Where is the demand for right of return in India and Pakistan?

Agree. Also there are refugees in refugee camps all over....and...silence.

 

[Coyote]

There is also a disturbing trend that seems to equate anything less than a 100% blind support of the rightwing vision of Israel with a form of treason.

I strongly disagree with this.

Well, that is your prerogative but it is what it seems to me.

 

[Coyote]

Should we encourage Jews to leave too? Voluntarily?

By placing restrictions on where Jews are permitted to live, you already are.

Where are Jews restricted within the state of Israel?

How many Arab settlements have been built in Area C?

Not allowing foreign nationals to move into a disputed area is not encouraging them to leave.

 

[Shusha]

RE: Annexing West Bank
⁜→ Coyote, et al,

Maybe this is true. Maybe not.

During that time there were many expulsions....Arabs expelled Jews and Jews expelled Arabs. There was also a lot of myth building by both sides. This occurred close to a century ago....when you think of it. Ethics have changed.

Would you really support forcing millions of families to leave their homeland? I wouldn’t.

(COMMENT)

There was not that much difference in time between the mass internment of Japanese Americans (1942-1946) during World War II. → Then, the mass displacement of various inhabitants in Palestine (1947 - 1949). Neither of which came even close to the 12 to 16 Million displaced during the 1947 Partition of India and Pakistan.

There is a world of difference when discussing morals and ethics in the academic and hypothetical → and then when it comes down to the experience of the real thing.

What many people think is "unthinkable" today -- is just the way things were done (normal) in that era.

Most Respectfully,
R

And its viewed as normal. Everywhere but Israel. Where is the demand for right of return in India and Pakistan?

Agree. Also there are refugees in refugee camps all over....and...silence.

I think you missed my point.

 

[Coyote]

Foxie, you can not forceably move millians of people who have roots, families and ties to that region going back hundreds if not thousands of years. It isnt a question of whether Islam would accept but it but whether any decent human being could accept it.

It would be difficult for sure. But when a people will not compromise, will not agree that the Jews should be allowed to live, and who consistently initiate deadly hostilities with the Jews after seventy years of working to accommodate those same people, it is time to stop trying and do something that will work. The Jews also have roots, families, and ties to that region going back much further than Islam does. And it is Islam that objects to Israel, not the rank and file population per se'. Israel deserves to be left alone and live as who and what they are in peace. They do not initiate the hostilities but they do finish the fights. They would like to not have to have the fights.

The Arabs expelled almost all Jews from their countries and have refused to allow the Palestinians to immigrate to their countries and the Israelis would be committing literal suicide if they do. So we should go for the next best solution to the problem.

During that time there were many expulsions....Arabs expelled Jews and Jews expelled Arabs. There was also a lot of myth building by both sides. This occurred close to a century ago....when you think of it. Ethics have changed.

Would you really support forcing millions of families to leave their homeland? I wouldn’t.

Millions have done it. Look at how America was built. This is the only peaceful solution I see.

America was built on the back of slavery.

Forced expulsions are not peaceful solutions otherwise you would have no problem applying it to Jews as well.

Slavery was only in the South. Built on innovation and mass immigration. You should take a history class.

The economic benefits of slavery were felt throughout the nation. Mass voluntary immigration.

 

[Coyote]

RE: Annexing West Bank
⁜→ Coyote, et al,

Maybe this is true. Maybe not.

During that time there were many expulsions....Arabs expelled Jews and Jews expelled Arabs. There was also a lot of myth building by both sides. This occurred close to a century ago....when you think of it. Ethics have changed.

Would you really support forcing millions of families to leave their homeland? I wouldn’t.

(COMMENT)

There was not that much difference in time between the mass internment of Japanese Americans (1942-1946) during World War II. → Then, the mass displacement of various inhabitants in Palestine (1947 - 1949). Neither of which came even close to the 12 to 16 Million displaced during the 1947 Partition of India and Pakistan.

There is a world of difference when discussing morals and ethics in the academic and hypothetical → and then when it comes down to the experience of the real thing.

What many people think is "unthinkable" today -- is just the way things were done (normal) in that era.

Most Respectfully,
R

And its viewed as normal. Everywhere but Israel. Where is the demand for right of return in India and Pakistan?

Agree. Also there are refugees in refugee camps all over....and...silence.

I think you missed my point.

What was it then?

 

[Shusha]

Should we encourage Jews to leave too? Voluntarily?

By placing restrictions on where Jews are permitted to live, you already are.

Where are Jews restricted within the state of Israel?

How many Arab settlements have been built in Area C?

Not allowing foreign nationals to move into a disputed area is not encouraging them to leave.

Well, yes, you are asking the same questions you asked before. I've written several posts asking for clarifications of what constitutes an "Arab settlement" and "foreign national". You have refused to address my requests. We are at an impasse until you address my questions.

Who are the "settlers" in the Jewish quarter? Jews or Arabs?

Who is a "foreigner" in disputed lands?

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

It would be difficult for sure. But when a people will not compromise, will not agree that the Jews should be allowed to live, and who consistently initiate deadly hostilities with the Jews after seventy years of working to accommodate those same people, it is time to stop trying and do something that will work. The Jews also have roots, families, and ties to that region going back much further than Islam does. And it is Islam that objects to Israel, not the rank and file population per se'. Israel deserves to be left alone and live as who and what they are in peace. They do not initiate the hostilities but they do finish the fights. They would like to not have to have the fights.

The Arabs expelled almost all Jews from their countries and have refused to allow the Palestinians to immigrate to their countries and the Israelis would be committing literal suicide if they do. So we should go for the next best solution to the problem.

During that time there were many expulsions....Arabs expelled Jews and Jews expelled Arabs. There was also a lot of myth building by both sides. This occurred close to a century ago....when you think of it. Ethics have changed.

Would you really support forcing millions of families to leave their homeland? I wouldn’t.

Millions have done it. Look at how America was built. This is the only peaceful solution I see.

America was built on the back of slavery.

Forced expulsions are not peaceful solutions otherwise you would have no problem applying it to Jews as well.

Slavery was only in the South. Built on innovation and mass immigration. You should take a history class.

The economic benefits of slavery were felt throughout the nation. Mass voluntary immigration.

Slavery ended in 1864. Since then America has been a land of opportunity for millions who decided to leave their ancestral homes. The “Palestinians” are obviously unhappy so why stay and remain unhappy? You know there is zero chance they become a one state country and also zero chance for a two state solution. Only solution is immigration. Adios.

 

[Shusha]

RE: Annexing West Bank
⁜→ Coyote, et al,

Maybe this is true. Maybe not.

During that time there were many expulsions....Arabs expelled Jews and Jews expelled Arabs. There was also a lot of myth building by both sides. This occurred close to a century ago....when you think of it. Ethics have changed.

Would you really support forcing millions of families to leave their homeland? I wouldn’t.

(COMMENT)

There was not that much difference in time between the mass internment of Japanese Americans (1942-1946) during World War II. → Then, the mass displacement of various inhabitants in Palestine (1947 - 1949). Neither of which came even close to the 12 to 16 Million displaced during the 1947 Partition of India and Pakistan.

There is a world of difference when discussing morals and ethics in the academic and hypothetical → and then when it comes down to the experience of the real thing.

What many people think is "unthinkable" today -- is just the way things were done (normal) in that era.

Most Respectfully,
R

And its viewed as normal. Everywhere but Israel. Where is the demand for right of return in India and Pakistan?

Agree. Also there are refugees in refugee camps all over....and...silence.

I think you missed my point.

What was it then?

That historically in significant conflicts and war between two distinct ethnic groups population exchange was accepted as normal. The sole exception is Israel. Israel still carries a demonization for the population exchange which does not exist in any other instance. Such as India/Pakistan.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Annexing West Bank
⁜→ AzogtheDefiler, et al,

Well, I see you are a student of history. But the description of slavery today and what was justified as critical from the 1800s and forwards is a bit different.

Slavery was only in the South. Built on innovation and mass immigration. You should take a history class.

(COMMENT)

America used a very large number of Chinese to build railways for the rich and powerful.

And even though White Slavery has existed for several centuries, Americans would find it odd to know that it is still a thriving business today in the need for the service of forced prostitution and sex slaves.

It was not all that long ago that there were "sweatshops" and "impress child labor" --- and indentured servitude. There were many many children forced to work in mines and factories in the North, all the way to mid-1990s. And up and until the late 1980s, there was still some wide-spread exploitation of migrant workers and illegal immigrants.

You would be correct if you were just talking about the exploitation of Black Labor. But there is so much more to the meaning of slavery.

Most Respectfully.
R

 

[Lastamender]

Should we encourage Jews to leave too? Voluntarily?

Arabs have plenty of places they can go. The Jews don't.

Christians have plenty of places they can go but they invaded America. Let’s send them back to Europe.

Christians

We agree on this one. The tendency to pile on with agreement when nobody is supporting their opinions is a sad fact on message boards. You and I can disagree on Palestine and Israel, but the fact that you sympathize with the Palestinians in no may means that you hate the Jews as has been suggested. I find that extrapolation to be ridiculous.

And the fact that I think the Palestinians have refused myriad opportunities to compromise on a peace plan and/or have violated agreements and they have pretty well forfeited their claim to that land does not mean I hate the Palestinians.

The best solution now is for the UN to find and buy a nice piece of land approximately the size of Israel and move the Palestinians there. Islam will never agree to that, however, as it would remove their ability to use the Palestinians for political purposes in their ultimate goal which is to destroy Israel and the Jews.

Foxie, you can not forceably move millians of people who have roots, families and ties to that region going back hundreds if not thousands of years. It isnt a question of whether Islam would accept but it but whether any decent human being could accept it.

It would be difficult for sure. But when a people will not compromise, will not agree that the Jews should be allowed to live, and who consistently initiate deadly hostilities with the Jews after seventy years of working to accommodate those same people, it is time to stop trying and do something that will work. The Jews also have roots, families, and ties to that region going back much further than Islam does. And it is Islam that objects to Israel, not the rank and file population per se'. Israel deserves to be left alone and live as who and what they are in peace. They do not initiate the hostilities but they do finish the fights. They would like to not have to have the fights.

The Arabs expelled almost all Jews from their countries and have refused to allow the Palestinians to immigrate to their countries and the Israelis would be committing literal suicide if they do. So we should go for the next best solution to the problem.

During that time there were many expulsions....Arabs expelled Jews and Jews expelled Arabs. There was also a lot of myth building by both sides. This occurred close to a century ago....when you think of it. Ethics have changed.

Would you really support forcing millions of families to leave their homeland? I wouldn’t.

Millions have done it. Look at how America was built. This is the only peaceful solution I see.

America was built on the back of slavery.

Forced expulsions are not peaceful solutions otherwise you would have no problem applying it to Jews as well.

America was built on the back of slavery.

Slavery was legal and America was built by the Constitution. Slavery is no longer legal but the Constitution is still the law.

Israel knows what Islam says, any treaty will only last as long as it better for Islam, so it is meaningless.

 

[Coyote]

Should we encourage Jews to leave too? Voluntarily?

By placing restrictions on where Jews are permitted to live, you already are.

Where are Jews restricted within the state of Israel?

How many Arab settlements have been built in Area C?

Not allowing foreign nationals to move into a disputed area is not encouraging them to leave.

Well, yes, you are asking the same questions you asked before. I've written several posts asking for clarifications of what constitutes an "Arab settlement" and "foreign national". You have refused to address my requests. We are at an impasse until you address my questions.

Who are the "settlers" in the Jewish quarter? Jews or Arabs?

Who is a "foreigner" in disputed lands?

I thought I had.

A foreign national is some one not a citizen of the area in question.

An Arab settlement would be a new town or outpost built in the occupied/disputed territories, between the start of the Israeli settlement program and now. To keep it clear, let’s define settlers as Israeli nationals.

As to who are the settlers in the Jewish Quarter? I would say neither. War and subsequent policies caused considerable population shifts.

A foreigner is some one who was not a resident there (or the progeny of) at the time it was occupied.

If you choose to define it broadly than Palestinians in refugee camps would have equal right to enter and settle those areas as well as Israel.

 

[Shusha]

To keep it clear, let’s define settlers as Israeli nationals.

Only Israeli nationals can be settlers?

And you can't see the bias in that? You can't see the lack of objective definition in that?