Annexing West Bank

[Shusha]

1) It is illegal to annex occupied territory.

2) How are the Palestinians going to live when they are stuck in bantustans cut off from the required resources to develop an economy?

I think that is a legitimate point.

Area C is 60% of the West Bank. Under Oslo it was put under Israeli Administration. While the peace process was worked through.

So question one (RoccoR ) is that the same thing as becominng sovereign Israeli territory or was the intention that the future of Area C as well as A and B be determined through negotiations? Suddenly it seems to have become rightfully part of Israel being “reclaimed” rather than “annexed” and changing terminology designed to make it rightful. Has Netanyahu done anything at all towards the realization of a two state solution or have his actions been designed to block and provoke towards the goal of making it an impossibility? There has been plenty of blame levied on the Palestinians actions....but what about Israel’s own action under their increasingly rightwing government? They seem to get a free pass.

Question two (Shusha maybe this addresses your post?)...a two state solution. I no longer believe that is possible. Area C represents 60% of the West Bank. It contains most of the resources and agricultural areas. Arabs are largely prohibited from building there. Economically and agriculturally it is important to any potential state.


West Bank and Gaza: Area C and the Future of the Palestinian Economy - World Bank study (2 October 2013)

Restrictions on economic activity in Area C of the West Bank have been particularly detrimental to the Palestinian economy. Area C constitutes about 61 percent of the West Bank territory and was defined under the Oslo Peace Accords as the area that would be gradually transferred to the Palestinian Authority within a period of 5 years, except for the parts to be agreed upon within the final settlement agreement.' The gradual transfer has not yet taken place and, in the meantime, access to this area for most kinds of economic activity has been severely limited. Yet, the potential contribution of Area C to the Palestinian economy is large. Area C is richly endowed with natural resources and it is contiguous, whereas Areas A and B are smaller territorial islands. The manner in which Area C is currently administered virtually precludes Palestinian businesses from investing there.​

Under the Oslo agreements Area C was to have been given to the Palestinians with milestones towards peace and negotiations for certain areas. What continual settlement expansion and building over many years has done is made it it increasingly impossible.

That leaves Area A and Area B.
View attachment 255685

I am curious as to how a viable Palestinian state can occur that doesn’t resemble resource poor “Bantustans” dependent on Israel for agriculture, water and power.

I am curious as to how anyone can claim that keeping Area C and it’s access to the resources of the Dead Sea and agricultural lands has not been Israel’s intention for some time. It would enlightening to actually discuss Israel’s policies without ... but but but the Palestinians. We already know the Palestinian have made a tradition of repeatedly shooting themselves in the foot.

I'm not buying this. There are 32 states with territories smaller than the "West Bank". Many with absolutely no agricultural land and no natural resources. Not all economies are based in agriculture.

If we are arguing contiguity, it is still possible. And I would argue for Israel ensuring that whatever border Israel sets should ensure a contiguous Arab Palestine.

 

[toomuchtime_]

n RE: Annexing West Bank
⁜→ AzogtheDefiler, et al,

As the Secretary-General said, some number of year ago (≈ 2013) → No Policy to Fight Terrorism Can Succeed without Addressing Conditions Promoting Its Spread.

No matter what Israel does:

• Do nothing.
• Nation Build (doing something).
• Create the new and necarry commercial and economic trading superstructure. (doing it right).​

A necessary start is to kick-off one, then another and then another, see Post #148 of this Thread until the entire face of West Bank has changed (assuming that our friend "P F Tinmore does not find this change in → contrivention with International Law.

How can they solve it? How would you solve it? I know how I would and it would be ugly

(COMMENT)

Programs (ex Post #148 supra) like this, we all know, will cost big bags of money (BBM). If Israel just unilaterally annexes the whole seen, the consequences are going to cause pain and BBM. If Israel simply builds infrastructure, it is going to have to maintain the new infrastructure and the border status quo. This too will mean BBM.

But if we make a nothing place like al-Ayzariyah (WB) and turn it into a huge regional central Exchange for the B2B Centers and Partnerships it will be like a putting a match to kindling.

Just one example and why,
Most Respectfully,
R

Jerusalem was the religious, economic, and cultural center if the West Bank.

Virtually all cities and villages have lost some or all of their land to Area C. For example: Bethlehem has lost all but 18% of its land. Where is the space for residential, industrial, and agricultural zones?

Trump's "deal of the century."

• The Palestinians will live in bantustans cut off from the resources needed to develop an economy.
• All travel, trade, and tourism would have to pass through Israel.
• All imports and exports would have to pass through Israel.
• Israeli factories will be placed along the wall. Palestinians who pass background checks can get permits to get low level employment. These factories would not be "in Palestine" so they would not be subject to Palestinian laws, unions, or taxes.

The only real problem the Palestinians have is that they are cut off from reality. The slim possibility there could ever be a Palestinian state ended with the second intifada, and now because of their refusal to negotiate realistically, they no longer have any voice in what happens to area C. Their continued violence and refusal to negotiate realistically, has so eroded Israeli support for the support of a two state solution that now the chief proponent of two states, the Labor Party, is on the verge of disappearing. The only way the Palestinians can improve their quality of life and the futures of their children is to accept this reality they have created and learn to live peacefully within the framework laid out by Israel. What's past is past and will never come again.

I agree up to a point, and that point is Israeli political right has also engineered a situation that contributes the the demise of a two state solution.

Agree that the Palestinians must accept a new reality. So must the Israeli’s. The Palestinians are going to conveniently go away and the status quo is both expensive to maintain and unsupportable long term in terms of human rights. Creating a multi tiered system of rights, freedoms and citizenship is not very sustainable for peace. I think Israel’s new National Law is problematic as well.

Probably some form of federation is what is needed

Some form of relocation...50+ mostly Islamic countries only one Jewish one.

In fact if the money and diplomatic support were available, large numbers of Palestinians would leave today.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

n RE: Annexing West Bank
⁜→ AzogtheDefiler, et al,

As the Secretary-General said, some number of year ago (≈ 2013) → No Policy to Fight Terrorism Can Succeed without Addressing Conditions Promoting Its Spread.

No matter what Israel does:

• Do nothing.
• Nation Build (doing something).
• Create the new and necarry commercial and economic trading superstructure. (doing it right).​

A necessary start is to kick-off one, then another and then another, see Post #148 of this Thread until the entire face of West Bank has changed (assuming that our friend "P F Tinmore does not find this change in → contrivention with International Law.

(COMMENT)

Programs (ex Post #148 supra) like this, we all know, will cost big bags of money (BBM). If Israel just unilaterally annexes the whole seen, the consequences are going to cause pain and BBM. If Israel simply builds infrastructure, it is going to have to maintain the new infrastructure and the border status quo. This too will mean BBM.

But if we make a nothing place like al-Ayzariyah (WB) and turn it into a huge regional central Exchange for the B2B Centers and Partnerships it will be like a putting a match to kindling.

Just one example and why,
Most Respectfully,
R

Jerusalem was the religious, economic, and cultural center if the West Bank.

Virtually all cities and villages have lost some or all of their land to Area C. For example: Bethlehem has lost all but 18% of its land. Where is the space for residential, industrial, and agricultural zones?

Trump's "deal of the century."

• The Palestinians will live in bantustans cut off from the resources needed to develop an economy.
• All travel, trade, and tourism would have to pass through Israel.
• All imports and exports would have to pass through Israel.
• Israeli factories will be placed along the wall. Palestinians who pass background checks can get permits to get low level employment. These factories would not be "in Palestine" so they would not be subject to Palestinian laws, unions, or taxes.

The only real problem the Palestinians have is that they are cut off from reality. The slim possibility there could ever be a Palestinian state ended with the second intifada, and now because of their refusal to negotiate realistically, they no longer have any voice in what happens to area C. Their continued violence and refusal to negotiate realistically, has so eroded Israeli support for the support of a two state solution that now the chief proponent of two states, the Labor Party, is on the verge of disappearing. The only way the Palestinians can improve their quality of life and the futures of their children is to accept this reality they have created and learn to live peacefully within the framework laid out by Israel. What's past is past and will never come again.

I agree up to a point, and that point is Israeli political right has also engineered a situation that contributes the the demise of a two state solution.

Agree that the Palestinians must accept a new reality. So must the Israeli’s. The Palestinians are going to conveniently go away and the status quo is both expensive to maintain and unsupportable long term in terms of human rights. Creating a multi tiered system of rights, freedoms and citizenship is not very sustainable for peace. I think Israel’s new National Law is problematic as well.

Probably some form of federation is what is needed

Some form of relocation...50+ mostly Islamic countries only one Jewish one.

In fact if the money and diplomatic support were available, large numbers of Palestinians would leave today.

Bingo. Many people immigrate to other countries when they are unhappy. Why can’t the “Palestinians”?

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Annexing West Bank
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

You just enamored with this term "bantustan."

View attachment 255690
​

The Palestinians will live in bantustans cut off from the resources needed to develop an economy.

(COMMENT)

Before you add this word to your vocabulary, I think you first need to know what is means and how to apply it.

A territory set was aside for every country grown out of the Mandates in the aftermath of WWI and breakup of the Ottoman Empire. More than a dozen countries emerged out of the breakup of the former Soviet Union. And in the dissolution of the former Yugoslavia, only Serbia survived and the new countries of Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Macedonia and most recently Kosovo. The Arab Palestinians should not feel singled out, or that the evolution of the outcome was any different than what happened before the Class A Mandates and what was to come after the time of the Class A Mandates.

The Arab Palestinians are not now in any particular set aside territory as they had rejected every single overture or offer made sign early 1920's. Where as the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and the early Israel were all offered and established on set aside territories. The Arab Palestinians could not have botched their independence up so bad if it were done the Lord of the Underworld.

So I repeat, the Arab Palestinians declined in the effort to establish for them any semblance of functioning self-government. So they can not claim to be in a "Bantu."

Most Respectfully,
R

You just enamored with this term "bantustan."

Would you prefer that I use the term reservations?

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Annexing West Bank
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

You just enamored with this term "bantustan."

View attachment 255690
​

The Palestinians will live in bantustans cut off from the resources needed to develop an economy.

(COMMENT)

Before you add this word to your vocabulary, I think you first need to know what is means and how to apply it.

A territory set was aside for every country grown out of the Mandates in the aftermath of WWI and breakup of the Ottoman Empire. More than a dozen countries emerged out of the breakup of the former Soviet Union. And in the dissolution of the former Yugoslavia, only Serbia survived and the new countries of Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Macedonia and most recently Kosovo. The Arab Palestinians should not feel singled out, or that the evolution of the outcome was any different than what happened before the Class A Mandates and what was to come after the time of the Class A Mandates.

The Arab Palestinians are not now in any particular set aside territory as they had rejected every single overture or offer made sign early 1920's. Where as the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and the early Israel were all offered and established on set aside territories. The Arab Palestinians could not have botched their independence up so bad if it were done the Lord of the Underworld.

So I repeat, the Arab Palestinians declined in the effort to establish for them any semblance of functioning self-government. So they can not claim to be in a "Bantu."

Most Respectfully,
R

So I repeat, the Arab Palestinians declined in the effort to establish for them any semblance of functioning self-government.

Israeli bullshit talking point.

 

[Coyote]

Jerusalem was the religious, economic, and cultural center if the West Bank.

Virtually all cities and villages have lost some or all of their land to Area C. For example: Bethlehem has lost all but 18% of its land. Where is the space for residential, industrial, and agricultural zones?

Trump's "deal of the century."

• The Palestinians will live in bantustans cut off from the resources needed to develop an economy.
• All travel, trade, and tourism would have to pass through Israel.
• All imports and exports would have to pass through Israel.
• Israeli factories will be placed along the wall. Palestinians who pass background checks can get permits to get low level employment. These factories would not be "in Palestine" so they would not be subject to Palestinian laws, unions, or taxes.

The only real problem the Palestinians have is that they are cut off from reality. The slim possibility there could ever be a Palestinian state ended with the second intifada, and now because of their refusal to negotiate realistically, they no longer have any voice in what happens to area C. Their continued violence and refusal to negotiate realistically, has so eroded Israeli support for the support of a two state solution that now the chief proponent of two states, the Labor Party, is on the verge of disappearing. The only way the Palestinians can improve their quality of life and the futures of their children is to accept this reality they have created and learn to live peacefully within the framework laid out by Israel. What's past is past and will never come again.

I agree up to a point, and that point is Israeli political right has also engineered a situation that contributes the the demise of a two state solution.

Agree that the Palestinians must accept a new reality. So must the Israeli’s. The Palestinians are going to conveniently go away and the status quo is both expensive to maintain and unsupportable long term in terms of human rights. Creating a multi tiered system of rights, freedoms and citizenship is not very sustainable for peace. I think Israel’s new National Law is problematic as well.

Probably some form of federation is what is needed

Some form of relocation...50+ mostly Islamic countries only one Jewish one.

In fact if the money and diplomatic support were available, large numbers of Palestinians would leave today.

Bingo. Many people immigrate to other countries when they are unhappy. Why can’t the “Palestinians”?

Why can’t the Jews?

To forceably expel people from their homeland is wrong whether Jews or Palestinians. Ask the Armenians and Rohinga how great it is.

 

[Coyote]

n RE: Annexing West Bank
⁜→ AzogtheDefiler, et al,

As the Secretary-General said, some number of year ago (≈ 2013) → No Policy to Fight Terrorism Can Succeed without Addressing Conditions Promoting Its Spread.

No matter what Israel does:

• Do nothing.
• Nation Build (doing something).
• Create the new and necarry commercial and economic trading superstructure. (doing it right).​

A necessary start is to kick-off one, then another and then another, see Post #148 of this Thread until the entire face of West Bank has changed (assuming that our friend "P F Tinmore does not find this change in → contrivention with International Law.

(COMMENT)

Programs (ex Post #148 supra) like this, we all know, will cost big bags of money (BBM). If Israel just unilaterally annexes the whole seen, the consequences are going to cause pain and BBM. If Israel simply builds infrastructure, it is going to have to maintain the new infrastructure and the border status quo. This too will mean BBM.

But if we make a nothing place like al-Ayzariyah (WB) and turn it into a huge regional central Exchange for the B2B Centers and Partnerships it will be like a putting a match to kindling.

Just one example and why,
Most Respectfully,
R

Jerusalem was the religious, economic, and cultural center if the West Bank.

Virtually all cities and villages have lost some or all of their land to Area C. For example: Bethlehem has lost all but 18% of its land. Where is the space for residential, industrial, and agricultural zones?

Trump's "deal of the century."

• The Palestinians will live in bantustans cut off from the resources needed to develop an economy.
• All travel, trade, and tourism would have to pass through Israel.
• All imports and exports would have to pass through Israel.
• Israeli factories will be placed along the wall. Palestinians who pass background checks can get permits to get low level employment. These factories would not be "in Palestine" so they would not be subject to Palestinian laws, unions, or taxes.

The only real problem the Palestinians have is that they are cut off from reality. The slim possibility there could ever be a Palestinian state ended with the second intifada, and now because of their refusal to negotiate realistically, they no longer have any voice in what happens to area C. Their continued violence and refusal to negotiate realistically, has so eroded Israeli support for the support of a two state solution that now the chief proponent of two states, the Labor Party, is on the verge of disappearing. The only way the Palestinians can improve their quality of life and the futures of their children is to accept this reality they have created and learn to live peacefully within the framework laid out by Israel. What's past is past and will never come again.

I agree up to a point, and that point is Israeli political right has also engineered a situation that contributes the the demise of a two state solution.

Agree that the Palestinians must accept a new reality. So must the Israeli’s. The Palestinians are going to conveniently go away and the status quo is both expensive to maintain and unsupportable long term in terms of human rights. Creating a multi tiered system of rights, freedoms and citizenship is not very sustainable for peace. I think Israel’s new National Law is problematic as well.

Probably some form of federation is what is needed

Some form of relocation...50+ mostly Islamic countries only one Jewish one.

In fact if the money and diplomatic support were available, large numbers of Palestinians would leave today.

Would they if diplomatic opportunities and economic support were instead used to improve the local economies? The embargo ended?

What “large numbers” want to leave?

What people don’t seem capable of understanding is that just because a country is Islamic it is culturally similar.

America and Russia are Christian majority, as is Germany and Greece. I guess they are all the same huh?

 

[toomuchtime_]

The only real problem the Palestinians have is that they are cut off from reality. The slim possibility there could ever be a Palestinian state ended with the second intifada, and now because of their refusal to negotiate realistically, they no longer have any voice in what happens to area C. Their continued violence and refusal to negotiate realistically, has so eroded Israeli support for the support of a two state solution that now the chief proponent of two states, the Labor Party, is on the verge of disappearing. The only way the Palestinians can improve their quality of life and the futures of their children is to accept this reality they have created and learn to live peacefully within the framework laid out by Israel. What's past is past and will never come again.

I agree up to a point, and that point is Israeli political right has also engineered a situation that contributes the the demise of a two state solution.

Agree that the Palestinians must accept a new reality. So must the Israeli’s. The Palestinians are going to conveniently go away and the status quo is both expensive to maintain and unsupportable long term in terms of human rights. Creating a multi tiered system of rights, freedoms and citizenship is not very sustainable for peace. I think Israel’s new National Law is problematic as well.

Probably some form of federation is what is needed

Some form of relocation...50+ mostly Islamic countries only one Jewish one.

In fact if the money and diplomatic support were available, large numbers of Palestinians would leave today.

Bingo. Many people immigrate to other countries when they are unhappy. Why can’t the “Palestinians”?

Why can’t the Jews?

To forceably expel people from their homeland is wrong whether Jews or Palestinians. Ask the Armenians and Rohinga how great it is.

No one is talking about forcibly expelling the Palestinians, but only of providing them with the opportunity to leave.

 

[Coyote]

1) It is illegal to annex occupied territory.

2) How are the Palestinians going to live when they are stuck in bantustans cut off from the required resources to develop an economy?

I think that is a legitimate point.

Area C is 60% of the West Bank. Under Oslo it was put under Israeli Administration. While the peace process was worked through.

So question one (RoccoR ) is that the same thing as becominng sovereign Israeli territory or was the intention that the future of Area C as well as A and B be determined through negotiations? Suddenly it seems to have become rightfully part of Israel being “reclaimed” rather than “annexed” and changing terminology designed to make it rightful. Has Netanyahu done anything at all towards the realization of a two state solution or have his actions been designed to block and provoke towards the goal of making it an impossibility? There has been plenty of blame levied on the Palestinians actions....but what about Israel’s own action under their increasingly rightwing government? They seem to get a free pass.

Question two (Shusha maybe this addresses your post?)...a two state solution. I no longer believe that is possible. Area C represents 60% of the West Bank. It contains most of the resources and agricultural areas. Arabs are largely prohibited from building there. Economically and agriculturally it is important to any potential state.


West Bank and Gaza: Area C and the Future of the Palestinian Economy - World Bank study (2 October 2013)

Restrictions on economic activity in Area C of the West Bank have been particularly detrimental to the Palestinian economy. Area C constitutes about 61 percent of the West Bank territory and was defined under the Oslo Peace Accords as the area that would be gradually transferred to the Palestinian Authority within a period of 5 years, except for the parts to be agreed upon within the final settlement agreement.' The gradual transfer has not yet taken place and, in the meantime, access to this area for most kinds of economic activity has been severely limited. Yet, the potential contribution of Area C to the Palestinian economy is large. Area C is richly endowed with natural resources and it is contiguous, whereas Areas A and B are smaller territorial islands. The manner in which Area C is currently administered virtually precludes Palestinian businesses from investing there.​

Under the Oslo agreements Area C was to have been given to the Palestinians with milestones towards peace and negotiations for certain areas. What continual settlement expansion and building over many years has done is made it it increasingly impossible.

That leaves Area A and Area B.
View attachment 255685

I am curious as to how a viable Palestinian state can occur that doesn’t resemble resource poor “Bantustans” dependent on Israel for agriculture, water and power.

I am curious as to how anyone can claim that keeping Area C and it’s access to the resources of the Dead Sea and agricultural lands has not been Israel’s intention for some time. It would enlightening to actually discuss Israel’s policies without ... but but but the Palestinians. We already know the Palestinian have made a tradition of repeatedly shooting themselves in the foot.

I'm not buying this. There are 32 states with territories smaller than the "West Bank". Many with absolutely no agricultural land and no natural resources. Not all economies are based in agriculture.

If we are arguing contiguity, it is still possible. And I would argue for Israel ensuring that whatever border Israel sets should ensure a contiguous Arab Palestine.

True. Not all economies are based on having agricultural land but having some land and resources is pretty damn important for viability. Why should Israel take it all?

If a contiguous border is possible ... already they have extreme difficulty accessing different parts of their farms or between home and work because it is so chopped up.

I think, and this is my opinion only, that if Israel isn’t careful it WILL look like Bantustans with Palestinians relegated to small resource poor enclaves.

 

[Coyote]

I agree up to a point, and that point is Israeli political right has also engineered a situation that contributes the the demise of a two state solution.

Agree that the Palestinians must accept a new reality. So must the Israeli’s. The Palestinians are going to conveniently go away and the status quo is both expensive to maintain and unsupportable long term in terms of human rights. Creating a multi tiered system of rights, freedoms and citizenship is not very sustainable for peace. I think Israel’s new National Law is problematic as well.

Probably some form of federation is what is needed

Some form of relocation...50+ mostly Islamic countries only one Jewish one.

In fact if the money and diplomatic support were available, large numbers of Palestinians would leave today.

Bingo. Many people immigrate to other countries when they are unhappy. Why can’t the “Palestinians”?

Why can’t the Jews?

To forceably expel people from their homeland is wrong whether Jews or Palestinians. Ask the Armenians and Rohinga how great it is.

No one is talking about forcibly expelling the Palestinians, but only of providing them with the opportunity to leave.

I guess that depends on what “providing them an an opportunity” means.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

The only real problem the Palestinians have is that they are cut off from reality. The slim possibility there could ever be a Palestinian state ended with the second intifada, and now because of their refusal to negotiate realistically, they no longer have any voice in what happens to area C. Their continued violence and refusal to negotiate realistically, has so eroded Israeli support for the support of a two state solution that now the chief proponent of two states, the Labor Party, is on the verge of disappearing. The only way the Palestinians can improve their quality of life and the futures of their children is to accept this reality they have created and learn to live peacefully within the framework laid out by Israel. What's past is past and will never come again.

I agree up to a point, and that point is Israeli political right has also engineered a situation that contributes the the demise of a two state solution.

Agree that the Palestinians must accept a new reality. So must the Israeli’s. The Palestinians are going to conveniently go away and the status quo is both expensive to maintain and unsupportable long term in terms of human rights. Creating a multi tiered system of rights, freedoms and citizenship is not very sustainable for peace. I think Israel’s new National Law is problematic as well.

Probably some form of federation is what is needed

Some form of relocation...50+ mostly Islamic countries only one Jewish one.

In fact if the money and diplomatic support were available, large numbers of Palestinians would leave today.

Bingo. Many people immigrate to other countries when they are unhappy. Why can’t the “Palestinians”?

Why can’t the Jews?

To forceably expel people from their homeland is wrong whether Jews or Palestinians. Ask the Armenians and Rohinga how great it is.

Because Jews aren’t the ones complaining. And they DID leave. Like my parents left the old Soviet Union. IDC about the Armenians we are discussing “Palestinians” and their constant whining. If you don’t like it then leave!

 

[Coyote]

n RE: Annexing West Bank
⁜→ AzogtheDefiler, et al,

As the Secretary-General said, some number of year ago (≈ 2013) → No Policy to Fight Terrorism Can Succeed without Addressing Conditions Promoting Its Spread.

No matter what Israel does:

• Do nothing.
• Nation Build (doing something).
• Create the new and necarry commercial and economic trading superstructure. (doing it right).​

A necessary start is to kick-off one, then another and then another, see Post #148 of this Thread until the entire face of West Bank has changed (assuming that our friend "P F Tinmore does not find this change in → contrivention with International Law.

How can they solve it? How would you solve it? I know how I would and it would be ugly

(COMMENT)

Programs (ex Post #148 supra) like this, we all know, will cost big bags of money (BBM). If Israel just unilaterally annexes the whole seen, the consequences are going to cause pain and BBM. If Israel simply builds infrastructure, it is going to have to maintain the new infrastructure and the border status quo. This too will mean BBM.

But if we make a nothing place like al-Ayzariyah (WB) and turn it into a huge regional central Exchange for the B2B Centers and Partnerships it will be like a putting a match to kindling.

Just one example and why,
Most Respectfully,
R

Jerusalem was the religious, economic, and cultural center if the West Bank.

Virtually all cities and villages have lost some or all of their land to Area C. For example: Bethlehem has lost all but 18% of its land. Where is the space for residential, industrial, and agricultural zones?

Trump's "deal of the century."

• The Palestinians will live in bantustans cut off from the resources needed to develop an economy.
• All travel, trade, and tourism would have to pass through Israel.
• All imports and exports would have to pass through Israel.
• Israeli factories will be placed along the wall. Palestinians who pass background checks can get permits to get low level employment. These factories would not be "in Palestine" so they would not be subject to Palestinian laws, unions, or taxes.

The only real problem the Palestinians have is that they are cut off from reality. The slim possibility there could ever be a Palestinian state ended with the second intifada, and now because of their refusal to negotiate realistically, they no longer have any voice in what happens to area C. Their continued violence and refusal to negotiate realistically, has so eroded Israeli support for the support of a two state solution that now the chief proponent of two states, the Labor Party, is on the verge of disappearing. The only way the Palestinians can improve their quality of life and the futures of their children is to accept this reality they have created and learn to live peacefully within the framework laid out by Israel. What's past is past and will never come again.

I agree up to a point, and that point is Israeli political right has also engineered a situation that contributes the the demise of a two state solution.

Agree that the Palestinians must accept a new reality. So must the Israeli’s. The Palestinians are going to conveniently go away and the status quo is both expensive to maintain and unsupportable long term in terms of human rights. Creating a multi tiered system of rights, freedoms and citizenship is not very sustainable for peace. I think Israel’s new National Law is problematic as well.

Probably some form of federation is what is needed

Worrying that the two state delusion may not be possible is like worrying that the dinosaurs may become extinct. The reality is that the Palestians are free to govern themselves in area A and B and carrying out 95% of the functions of a sovereign state, but there is no political entity among the Palestinians that can credibly offer peace to Israel, so there can not be a Palestinian state and Israeli security forces will continue to operate throughout Judea and Samaria.

The Palestinians destroyed the confidence of Israelis in a peaceful two state solution with the second intifada, although it took a few years before some Israelis realized it, and today, there is no right or left on this issue - the left destroyed itself by hanging on to the two state delusion long after most Israelis realized it was not possible - and today few in Israel object in principle to annexing the Israeli settlements in Judea and Samaria but while some have confidence to do it right away, others are anxious about what the result will be.

It wasn’t just the Palestinians that destroyed confidence in a two state solution.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

Jerusalem was the religious, economic, and cultural center if the West Bank.

Virtually all cities and villages have lost some or all of their land to Area C. For example: Bethlehem has lost all but 18% of its land. Where is the space for residential, industrial, and agricultural zones?

Trump's "deal of the century."

• The Palestinians will live in bantustans cut off from the resources needed to develop an economy.
• All travel, trade, and tourism would have to pass through Israel.
• All imports and exports would have to pass through Israel.
• Israeli factories will be placed along the wall. Palestinians who pass background checks can get permits to get low level employment. These factories would not be "in Palestine" so they would not be subject to Palestinian laws, unions, or taxes.

The only real problem the Palestinians have is that they are cut off from reality. The slim possibility there could ever be a Palestinian state ended with the second intifada, and now because of their refusal to negotiate realistically, they no longer have any voice in what happens to area C. Their continued violence and refusal to negotiate realistically, has so eroded Israeli support for the support of a two state solution that now the chief proponent of two states, the Labor Party, is on the verge of disappearing. The only way the Palestinians can improve their quality of life and the futures of their children is to accept this reality they have created and learn to live peacefully within the framework laid out by Israel. What's past is past and will never come again.

I agree up to a point, and that point is Israeli political right has also engineered a situation that contributes the the demise of a two state solution.

Agree that the Palestinians must accept a new reality. So must the Israeli’s. The Palestinians are going to conveniently go away and the status quo is both expensive to maintain and unsupportable long term in terms of human rights. Creating a multi tiered system of rights, freedoms and citizenship is not very sustainable for peace. I think Israel’s new National Law is problematic as well.

Probably some form of federation is what is needed

Some form of relocation...50+ mostly Islamic countries only one Jewish one.

In fact if the money and diplomatic support were available, large numbers of Palestinians would leave today.

Would they if diplomatic opportunities and economic support were instead used to improve the local economies? The embargo ended?

What “large numbers” want to leave?

What people don’t seem capable of understanding is that just because a country is Islamic it is culturally similar.

America and Russia are Christian majority, as is Germany and Greece. I guess they are all the same huh?

US policy = don’t negotiate with Terrorists. “Palestine” is run by Terrorists. What’s good for the US is good for Israel.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Jerusalem was the religious, economic, and cultural center if the West Bank.

Virtually all cities and villages have lost some or all of their land to Area C. For example: Bethlehem has lost all but 18% of its land. Where is the space for residential, industrial, and agricultural zones?

Trump's "deal of the century."

• The Palestinians will live in bantustans cut off from the resources needed to develop an economy.
• All travel, trade, and tourism would have to pass through Israel.
• All imports and exports would have to pass through Israel.
• Israeli factories will be placed along the wall. Palestinians who pass background checks can get permits to get low level employment. These factories would not be "in Palestine" so they would not be subject to Palestinian laws, unions, or taxes.

The only real problem the Palestinians have is that they are cut off from reality. The slim possibility there could ever be a Palestinian state ended with the second intifada, and now because of their refusal to negotiate realistically, they no longer have any voice in what happens to area C. Their continued violence and refusal to negotiate realistically, has so eroded Israeli support for the support of a two state solution that now the chief proponent of two states, the Labor Party, is on the verge of disappearing. The only way the Palestinians can improve their quality of life and the futures of their children is to accept this reality they have created and learn to live peacefully within the framework laid out by Israel. What's past is past and will never come again.

I agree up to a point, and that point is Israeli political right has also engineered a situation that contributes the the demise of a two state solution.

Agree that the Palestinians must accept a new reality. So must the Israeli’s. The Palestinians are going to conveniently go away and the status quo is both expensive to maintain and unsupportable long term in terms of human rights. Creating a multi tiered system of rights, freedoms and citizenship is not very sustainable for peace. I think Israel’s new National Law is problematic as well.

Probably some form of federation is what is needed

Some form of relocation...50+ mostly Islamic countries only one Jewish one.

In fact if the money and diplomatic support were available, large numbers of Palestinians would leave today.

Would they if diplomatic opportunities and economic support were instead used to improve the local economies? The embargo ended?

What “large numbers” want to leave?

What people don’t seem capable of understanding is that just because a country is Islamic it is culturally similar.

America and Russia are Christian majority, as is Germany and Greece. I guess they are all the same huh?

Percentage of those wishing to emigrate stands at 41% in the Gaza Strip and 24% in the West Bank.

Palestinian Public Opinion Poll No-58 | PCPSR

 

[Coyote]

RE: Annexing West Bank
⁜→ AzogtheDefiler, et al,

Morally, you cannot simply transfer the burden away (in addition to it being totally illegal).

We are debating in circles. “Palestine” is a backward terror regime(s) and they need to be eliminated and the people who do want peace need to move to Egypt and Jordan.

(COMMENT)

It is Israel's problem. And the Israelis have to solve it. It is possible and I have suggested it many times. But the Israelis must really want to change the face of the West Bank, Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip.

Most Respectfully,
R

That is an interesting statement, what do you mean by it?

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

Some form of relocation...50+ mostly Islamic countries only one Jewish one.

In fact if the money and diplomatic support were available, large numbers of Palestinians would leave today.

Bingo. Many people immigrate to other countries when they are unhappy. Why can’t the “Palestinians”?

Why can’t the Jews?

To forceably expel people from their homeland is wrong whether Jews or Palestinians. Ask the Armenians and Rohinga how great it is.

No one is talking about forcibly expelling the Palestinians, but only of providing them with the opportunity to leave.

I guess that depends on what “providing them an an opportunity” means.

Meaning other Muslim countries giving them a road map. Problem is other Muslim countries don’t want them either.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

n RE: Annexing West Bank
⁜→ AzogtheDefiler, et al,

As the Secretary-General said, some number of year ago (≈ 2013) → No Policy to Fight Terrorism Can Succeed without Addressing Conditions Promoting Its Spread.

No matter what Israel does:

• Do nothing.
• Nation Build (doing something).
• Create the new and necarry commercial and economic trading superstructure. (doing it right).​

A necessary start is to kick-off one, then another and then another, see Post #148 of this Thread until the entire face of West Bank has changed (assuming that our friend "P F Tinmore does not find this change in → contrivention with International Law.

(COMMENT)

Programs (ex Post #148 supra) like this, we all know, will cost big bags of money (BBM). If Israel just unilaterally annexes the whole seen, the consequences are going to cause pain and BBM. If Israel simply builds infrastructure, it is going to have to maintain the new infrastructure and the border status quo. This too will mean BBM.

But if we make a nothing place like al-Ayzariyah (WB) and turn it into a huge regional central Exchange for the B2B Centers and Partnerships it will be like a putting a match to kindling.

Just one example and why,
Most Respectfully,
R

Jerusalem was the religious, economic, and cultural center if the West Bank.

Virtually all cities and villages have lost some or all of their land to Area C. For example: Bethlehem has lost all but 18% of its land. Where is the space for residential, industrial, and agricultural zones?

Trump's "deal of the century."

• The Palestinians will live in bantustans cut off from the resources needed to develop an economy.
• All travel, trade, and tourism would have to pass through Israel.
• All imports and exports would have to pass through Israel.
• Israeli factories will be placed along the wall. Palestinians who pass background checks can get permits to get low level employment. These factories would not be "in Palestine" so they would not be subject to Palestinian laws, unions, or taxes.

The only real problem the Palestinians have is that they are cut off from reality. The slim possibility there could ever be a Palestinian state ended with the second intifada, and now because of their refusal to negotiate realistically, they no longer have any voice in what happens to area C. Their continued violence and refusal to negotiate realistically, has so eroded Israeli support for the support of a two state solution that now the chief proponent of two states, the Labor Party, is on the verge of disappearing. The only way the Palestinians can improve their quality of life and the futures of their children is to accept this reality they have created and learn to live peacefully within the framework laid out by Israel. What's past is past and will never come again.

I agree up to a point, and that point is Israeli political right has also engineered a situation that contributes the the demise of a two state solution.

Agree that the Palestinians must accept a new reality. So must the Israeli’s. The Palestinians are going to conveniently go away and the status quo is both expensive to maintain and unsupportable long term in terms of human rights. Creating a multi tiered system of rights, freedoms and citizenship is not very sustainable for peace. I think Israel’s new National Law is problematic as well.

Probably some form of federation is what is needed

Worrying that the two state delusion may not be possible is like worrying that the dinosaurs may become extinct. The reality is that the Palestians are free to govern themselves in area A and B and carrying out 95% of the functions of a sovereign state, but there is no political entity among the Palestinians that can credibly offer peace to Israel, so there can not be a Palestinian state and Israeli security forces will continue to operate throughout Judea and Samaria.

The Palestinians destroyed the confidence of Israelis in a peaceful two state solution with the second intifada, although it took a few years before some Israelis realized it, and today, there is no right or left on this issue - the left destroyed itself by hanging on to the two state delusion long after most Israelis realized it was not possible - and today few in Israel object in principle to annexing the Israeli settlements in Judea and Samaria but while some have confidence to do it right away, others are anxious about what the result will be.

It wasn’t just the Palestinians that destroyed confidence in a two state solution.

Why would the world want another mostly Islamic country? You cannot name one that shares Western values of humanity that is mostly Muslim? Please explain that one.

 

[Coyote]

The only real problem the Palestinians have is that they are cut off from reality. The slim possibility there could ever be a Palestinian state ended with the second intifada, and now because of their refusal to negotiate realistically, they no longer have any voice in what happens to area C. Their continued violence and refusal to negotiate realistically, has so eroded Israeli support for the support of a two state solution that now the chief proponent of two states, the Labor Party, is on the verge of disappearing. The only way the Palestinians can improve their quality of life and the futures of their children is to accept this reality they have created and learn to live peacefully within the framework laid out by Israel. What's past is past and will never come again.

I agree up to a point, and that point is Israeli political right has also engineered a situation that contributes the the demise of a two state solution.

Agree that the Palestinians must accept a new reality. So must the Israeli’s. The Palestinians are going to conveniently go away and the status quo is both expensive to maintain and unsupportable long term in terms of human rights. Creating a multi tiered system of rights, freedoms and citizenship is not very sustainable for peace. I think Israel’s new National Law is problematic as well.

Probably some form of federation is what is needed

Some form of relocation...50+ mostly Islamic countries only one Jewish one.

In fact if the money and diplomatic support were available, large numbers of Palestinians would leave today.

Would they if diplomatic opportunities and economic support were instead used to improve the local economies? The embargo ended?

What “large numbers” want to leave?

What people don’t seem capable of understanding is that just because a country is Islamic it is culturally similar.

America and Russia are Christian majority, as is Germany and Greece. I guess they are all the same huh?

Percentage of those wishing to emigrate stands at 41% in the Gaza Strip and 24% in the West Bank.

Palestinian Public Opinion Poll No-58 | PCPSR

Gaza is being destroyed between Israel’s embargo and Hamas’ malfeasance, the economy is a wreck. I think they would not want to leAve if they had a better future.

 

[toomuchtime_]

n RE: Annexing West Bank
⁜→ AzogtheDefiler, et al,

As the Secretary-General said, some number of year ago (≈ 2013) → No Policy to Fight Terrorism Can Succeed without Addressing Conditions Promoting Its Spread.

No matter what Israel does:

• Do nothing.
• Nation Build (doing something).
• Create the new and necarry commercial and economic trading superstructure. (doing it right).​

A necessary start is to kick-off one, then another and then another, see Post #148 of this Thread until the entire face of West Bank has changed (assuming that our friend "P F Tinmore does not find this change in → contrivention with International Law.

(COMMENT)

Programs (ex Post #148 supra) like this, we all know, will cost big bags of money (BBM). If Israel just unilaterally annexes the whole seen, the consequences are going to cause pain and BBM. If Israel simply builds infrastructure, it is going to have to maintain the new infrastructure and the border status quo. This too will mean BBM.

But if we make a nothing place like al-Ayzariyah (WB) and turn it into a huge regional central Exchange for the B2B Centers and Partnerships it will be like a putting a match to kindling.

Just one example and why,
Most Respectfully,
R

Jerusalem was the religious, economic, and cultural center if the West Bank.

Virtually all cities and villages have lost some or all of their land to Area C. For example: Bethlehem has lost all but 18% of its land. Where is the space for residential, industrial, and agricultural zones?

Trump's "deal of the century."

• The Palestinians will live in bantustans cut off from the resources needed to develop an economy.
• All travel, trade, and tourism would have to pass through Israel.
• All imports and exports would have to pass through Israel.
• Israeli factories will be placed along the wall. Palestinians who pass background checks can get permits to get low level employment. These factories would not be "in Palestine" so they would not be subject to Palestinian laws, unions, or taxes.

The only real problem the Palestinians have is that they are cut off from reality. The slim possibility there could ever be a Palestinian state ended with the second intifada, and now because of their refusal to negotiate realistically, they no longer have any voice in what happens to area C. Their continued violence and refusal to negotiate realistically, has so eroded Israeli support for the support of a two state solution that now the chief proponent of two states, the Labor Party, is on the verge of disappearing. The only way the Palestinians can improve their quality of life and the futures of their children is to accept this reality they have created and learn to live peacefully within the framework laid out by Israel. What's past is past and will never come again.

I agree up to a point, and that point is Israeli political right has also engineered a situation that contributes the the demise of a two state solution.

Agree that the Palestinians must accept a new reality. So must the Israeli’s. The Palestinians are going to conveniently go away and the status quo is both expensive to maintain and unsupportable long term in terms of human rights. Creating a multi tiered system of rights, freedoms and citizenship is not very sustainable for peace. I think Israel’s new National Law is problematic as well.

Probably some form of federation is what is needed

Worrying that the two state delusion may not be possible is like worrying that the dinosaurs may become extinct. The reality is that the Palestians are free to govern themselves in area A and B and carrying out 95% of the functions of a sovereign state, but there is no political entity among the Palestinians that can credibly offer peace to Israel, so there can not be a Palestinian state and Israeli security forces will continue to operate throughout Judea and Samaria.

The Palestinians destroyed the confidence of Israelis in a peaceful two state solution with the second intifada, although it took a few years before some Israelis realized it, and today, there is no right or left on this issue - the left destroyed itself by hanging on to the two state delusion long after most Israelis realized it was not possible - and today few in Israel object in principle to annexing the Israeli settlements in Judea and Samaria but while some have confidence to do it right away, others are anxious about what the result will be.

It wasn’t just the Palestinians that destroyed confidence in a two state solution.

No, it was entirely the Palestinians. In the midst of negotiations, they launched the second intifada and since they have again and again refused to negotiate with Israel.

 

[Coyote]

Jerusalem was the religious, economic, and cultural center if the West Bank.

Virtually all cities and villages have lost some or all of their land to Area C. For example: Bethlehem has lost all but 18% of its land. Where is the space for residential, industrial, and agricultural zones?

Trump's "deal of the century."

• The Palestinians will live in bantustans cut off from the resources needed to develop an economy.
• All travel, trade, and tourism would have to pass through Israel.
• All imports and exports would have to pass through Israel.
• Israeli factories will be placed along the wall. Palestinians who pass background checks can get permits to get low level employment. These factories would not be "in Palestine" so they would not be subject to Palestinian laws, unions, or taxes.

The only real problem the Palestinians have is that they are cut off from reality. The slim possibility there could ever be a Palestinian state ended with the second intifada, and now because of their refusal to negotiate realistically, they no longer have any voice in what happens to area C. Their continued violence and refusal to negotiate realistically, has so eroded Israeli support for the support of a two state solution that now the chief proponent of two states, the Labor Party, is on the verge of disappearing. The only way the Palestinians can improve their quality of life and the futures of their children is to accept this reality they have created and learn to live peacefully within the framework laid out by Israel. What's past is past and will never come again.

I agree up to a point, and that point is Israeli political right has also engineered a situation that contributes the the demise of a two state solution.

Agree that the Palestinians must accept a new reality. So must the Israeli’s. The Palestinians are going to conveniently go away and the status quo is both expensive to maintain and unsupportable long term in terms of human rights. Creating a multi tiered system of rights, freedoms and citizenship is not very sustainable for peace. I think Israel’s new National Law is problematic as well.

Probably some form of federation is what is needed

Worrying that the two state delusion may not be possible is like worrying that the dinosaurs may become extinct. The reality is that the Palestians are free to govern themselves in area A and B and carrying out 95% of the functions of a sovereign state, but there is no political entity among the Palestinians that can credibly offer peace to Israel, so there can not be a Palestinian state and Israeli security forces will continue to operate throughout Judea and Samaria.

The Palestinians destroyed the confidence of Israelis in a peaceful two state solution with the second intifada, although it took a few years before some Israelis realized it, and today, there is no right or left on this issue - the left destroyed itself by hanging on to the two state delusion long after most Israelis realized it was not possible - and today few in Israel object in principle to annexing the Israeli settlements in Judea and Samaria but while some have confidence to do it right away, others are anxious about what the result will be.

It wasn’t just the Palestinians that destroyed confidence in a two state solution.

Why would the world want another mostly Islamic country? You cannot name one that shares Western values of humanity that is mostly Muslim? Please explain that one.

Why would I care? I don’t much like any strongly religious countries. The more fundamentalist the worse it is for women, human rights, religious freedoms.