Animal Activists Kill The Horse-Drawn Carriage Industry

[toobfreak]

But unlike animals - we have rights. We aren't property.

Horses have rights too. They are only seen as property by the people who would own them and w/o rights by the people who would rather not acknowledge them. As always, it is one group imposing their rule over another because they have the power to do so-- -- -- like the government. Not because they are right or just, but because they have the power. All living things have rights, that said, I still think horses and animals in general have it better and more recognized rights today than ever. People go to jail now for doing things to dogs that 60 years ago they freely got away with. And 60 years before that, got away with doing to people.

Even Barnum and Bailey, the circuses closed now because of animal rights. Sure, I bet things were not always ideal or even obeyed in toting elephants and lions around from city to city, but I think overall, they were getting treated better than ever. But the idea of a circus of big animals caged and trained and disciplined to PERFORM for people's entertainment itself simply became politically malfeasant in today's world of the guilt-ridden activist.

Horses, at odds with their appearance, are actually incredibly fragile - huge animals on thin legs with finicky digestive systems that can kill them. They aren't that tough, they just manage to endure.

Well, I know something of animals having had pets all my life, and horses having once dated a horse vet. Horses in the wild are pretty tough and roam in rugged terrain out west where it can also be incredibly hot. Again, The real concern seems to come about when the conditions are imposed by PEOPLE. There are ways to operate and retain the charm of old world horse and buggies as an alternate and nostalgic mode of transportation and minimize or eliminate the traffic and other concerns, if the desire is there.

I'd like to see a world where urban horses worked like people - 5 days a week, then 2 days off in a pasture with their mates and several times a year - a month off at pasture. Where there were workplace safety standards strictly adhered to for them.

Not sure why that would be a problem. I mean, there are plenty of horses to go around. It's not 1860 anymore where horses are needed for war and pulling heavy wagons over mountains no matter what anymore. I don't think anyone wants to rent a carriage ride around Chicago with the concern that the animal is being mistreated, whipped, beaten, starved or might drop over dead.

I think when a city loses, sacrifices or gives up its nostalgia, it loses something very important. We can make steel roller coasters, yet there is something different special about the old style wood ones. We can make digital MP3 music files, yet there is something different and special (and better) about analog LPs. Preserving our past and our connections to the past helps us better understand and appreciate the present and where we came from as well as where we are going for the future. Rather than a bullet train going 90 mph, a horse drawn carriage is a calm, relaxing, peaceful and blood-pressure lowering alternative, just as taking the Amtrak is to flying a jet.

Chicago shouldn't fight to preserve and fix their horse carriage industry to keep it viable because they need it, but because it adds an ineffable quality of life to those living there. Where I live, there is a great deal of preservation of the past, from old bridges to even antique incline trolleys going up steep hills. The people do not want to lose their connections with the past.

 

[Coyote]

But unlike animals - we have rights. We aren't property.

Horses have rights too. They are only seen as property by the people who would own them and w/o rights by the people who would rather not acknowledge them. As always, it is one group imposing their rule over another because they have the power to do so-- -- -- like the government. Not because they are right or just, but because they have the power. All living things have rights, that said, I still think horses and animals in general have it better and more recognized rights today than ever. People go to jail now for doing things to dogs that 60 years ago they freely got away with. And 60 years before that, got away with doing to people.

Agree.

But the concept of rights with animals is complicated because rights also confer responsibilities. But they have, IMO, the right to the best most natural life possible. Social species should have the company of their kind, those that graze and forage should have access to forage and pasture, not mud lots and tight confinement. All should have quality food, respectful treatment (because they have given up their freedom for us), good care and not be subject to abusive practices.

But the reality of human society is that they are property and we can legally abuse in many ways. And yes, they are better off now than 69 years ago, no question. But things can continue to improve and should don’t you think?

Even Barnum and Bailey, the circuses closed now because of animal rights. Sure, I bet things were not always ideal or even obeyed in toting elephants and lions around from city to city, but I think overall, they were getting treated better than ever. But the idea of a circus of big animals caged and trained and disciplined to PERFORM for people's entertainment itself simply became politically malfeasant in today's world of the guilt-ridden activist.

It doesn’t take a guilt-ridden activist to recognize the serious abuses of exotic animals in circus or the substandard environments they were subject to even though they were getting treated “better than ever”. All the more tragic when you realize elephants are highly intelligent animals that form complex multigenerational bonds, much like humans. I think we are becoming aware that some things just can’t be morally tolerated anymore, much like cock fighting, dog fighting and bear baiting are not.

Horses, at odds with their appearance, are actually incredibly fragile - huge animals on thin legs with finicky digestive systems that can kill them. They aren't that tough, they just manage to endure.

Well, I know something of animals having had pets all my life, and horses having once dated a horse vet. Horses in the wild are pretty tough and roam in rugged terrain out west where it can also be incredibly hot. Again, The real concern seems to come about when the conditions are imposed by PEOPLE. There are ways to operate and retain the charm of old world horse and buggies as an alternate and nostalgic mode of transportation and minimize or eliminate the traffic and other concerns, if the desire is there.

What do horses in the wild largely do all day? Graze, move slowly from area to area, unles spooked. They have free will to avoid inhospitable areas unless forced into them.

Last part, I agree. But it means regulation and care. And as you said, the desire to do so.

I'd like to see a world where urban horses worked like people - 5 days a week, then 2 days off in a pasture with their mates and several times a year - a month off at pasture. Where there were workplace safety standards strictly adhered to for them.

Not sure why that would be a problem. I mean, there are plenty of horses to go around. It's not 1860 anymore where horses are needed for war and pulling heavy wagons over mountains no matter what anymore. I don't think anyone wants to rent a carriage ride around Chicago with the concern that the animal is being mistreated, whipped, beaten, starved or might drop over dead.

Agree! Working animals should have the same protections and rights as working people.

I think when a city loses, sacrifices or gives up its nostalgia, it loses something very important. We can make steel roller coasters, yet there is something different special about the old style wood ones. We can make digital MP3 music files, yet there is something different and special (and better) about analog LPs. Preserving our past and our connections to the past helps us better understand and appreciate the present and where we came from as well as where we are going for the future. Rather than a bullet train going 90 mph, a horse drawn carriage is a calm, relaxing, peaceful and blood-pressure lowering alternative, just as taking the Amtrak is to flying a jet.

Chicago shouldn't fight to preserve and fix their horse carriage industry to keep it viable because they need it, but because it adds an ineffable quality of life to those living there. Where I live, there is a great deal of preservation of the past, from old bridges to even antique incline trolleys going up steep hills. The people do not want to lose their connections with the past.


View attachment 312530

I hear on that...

Beautiful photo

 

[toobfreak]

But the concept of rights with animals is complicated because rights also confer responsibilities. But they have, IMO, the right to the best most natural life possible. All should have quality food, respectful treatment (because they have given up their freedom for us), good care and not be subject to abusive practices.

My pets certainly had the best most natural, quality respectful good care and freedom from abuse! One of them was even buried is a custom built hermetic case surrounded by machined metal parts designed to protect and last hundreds of years.

One of them even made it onto the cover of my credit card. You can see she "permitted" me to photograph her, while secretly admitting she was enjoying the attention. And she knew she deserved it too. I was lucky to have her.

Sometimes she even let me have half the bed.