And here we go: Pedophilia is being normalized.

[irosie91]

You might want to refresh your memory.

thanks ---I always appreciate a scholarly update-----but regarding the
development of "sexuality" in females----I am ok -------

Obviously not since you seem to think puberty is a stage in embryonic development.

The stage in embryonic development where gender characteristics begin to form is called sexual differentiation not puberty. Puberty is the stage where the body becomes sexually mature and that doesn't happen in utero.

You are focusing on SEMANTICS-----the term "sexually mature" has no meaning at all. ----it is a CONTINUUM. I am a biologist----not a sociologist. For "sexually mature" ---talk to MAGARET MEADE.

No, I'm focusing on the facts. You claim to be a biologist yet you tried to claim embryos go through puberty when they don't unless there is something wrong with them.

Ahhhhhhh, I hate to tell you but that is just an ankle biter who is creating static / running interference in this thread.

Don't try and make a sane and logical conversation out of it, because they sure aren't.

I am completely logical-----proctologists have no notion regarding the PROFOUND effect of "sexual hormones" on the development of the BRAIN. -------they have their heads inserted in ------the other end. -----they actually believe that a human forms around the caudal end of its digestive tract and that gastrulation TRUMPS the Notochord

 

[Exquisite]

You might want to refresh your memory.

thanks ---I always appreciate a scholarly update-----but regarding the
development of "sexuality" in females----I am ok -------

Obviously not since you seem to think puberty is a stage in embryonic development.

The stage in embryonic development where gender characteristics begin to form is called sexual differentiation not puberty. Puberty is the stage where the body becomes sexually mature and that doesn't happen in utero.

You are focusing on SEMANTICS-----the term "sexually mature" has no meaning at all. ----it is a CONTINUUM. I am a biologist----not a sociologist. For "sexually mature" ---talk to MAGARET MEADE.

No, I'm focusing on the facts. You claim to be a biologist yet you tried to claim embryos go through puberty when they don't unless there is something wrong with them.

Ahhhhhhh, I hate to tell you but that is just an ankle biter who is creating static / running interference in this thread.

Don't try and make a sane and logical conversation out of it, because they sure aren't.

::: big sigh :::

I know, I made my point a while ago but I can't resist ... I'm too soft-hearted ... even trolls need love.

 

[irosie91]

thanks ---I always appreciate a scholarly update-----but regarding the
development of "sexuality" in females----I am ok -------

Obviously not since you seem to think puberty is a stage in embryonic development.

The stage in embryonic development where gender characteristics begin to form is called sexual differentiation not puberty. Puberty is the stage where the body becomes sexually mature and that doesn't happen in utero.

You are focusing on SEMANTICS-----the term "sexually mature" has no meaning at all. ----it is a CONTINUUM. I am a biologist----not a sociologist. For "sexually mature" ---talk to MAGARET MEADE.

No, I'm focusing on the facts. You claim to be a biologist yet you tried to claim embryos go through puberty when they don't unless there is something wrong with them.

Ahhhhhhh, I hate to tell you but that is just an ankle biter who is creating static / running interference in this thread.

Don't try and make a sane and logical conversation out of it, because they sure aren't.

::: big sigh :::

I know, I made my point a while ago but I can't resist ... I'm too soft-hearted ... even trolls need love.

what point did you think you made-? that you can name the date and time of day that PUBERTY HITS?

 

[Exquisite]

Obviously not since you seem to think puberty is a stage in embryonic development.

The stage in embryonic development where gender characteristics begin to form is called sexual differentiation not puberty. Puberty is the stage where the body becomes sexually mature and that doesn't happen in utero.

You are focusing on SEMANTICS-----the term "sexually mature" has no meaning at all. ----it is a CONTINUUM. I am a biologist----not a sociologist. For "sexually mature" ---talk to MAGARET MEADE.

No, I'm focusing on the facts. You claim to be a biologist yet you tried to claim embryos go through puberty when they don't unless there is something wrong with them.

Ahhhhhhh, I hate to tell you but that is just an ankle biter who is creating static / running interference in this thread.

Don't try and make a sane and logical conversation out of it, because they sure aren't.

::: big sigh :::

I know, I made my point a while ago but I can't resist ... I'm too soft-hearted ... even trolls need love.

what point did you think you made-? that you can name the date and time of day that PUBERTY HITS?

Have a good day.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Not All Pedophiles Have Mental Disorder

In a move toward destigmatizing pedophilia, the American Psychiatric Association (APA) in its updated Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), distinguishes between pedophiles who desire sex with children, and those who act on those desires.

The former group -- those who want to have sex with children but whose desires are not distressing or harmful to themselves or others -- is no longer classified as having a psychiatric condition in the updated DSM.

This is pretty similar to how homosexuality was normalized back in 70s.

Thoughts?

The left can draw all manner of parallels between blacks and homosexuals, despite race and sexuality not being even vaguely the same thing, but drawing parallels between one mental disorder being normalized and another possibly being normalized, they're just stumped.

And before any of you get your panties wadded up your ass, I am referring to homosexuality as a mental disorder here primarily in reference to the fact that it was listed in the DSM at one time, and not as a value judgement regarding it.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I would not consider it a mental disorder at all. Pedophilia is fucked up and kinda twisted... but it's not a mental disorder.

​

Based on what criteria?

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

Not All Pedophiles Have Mental Disorder

In a move toward destigmatizing pedophilia, the American Psychiatric Association (APA) in its updated Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), distinguishes between pedophiles who desire sex with children, and those who act on those desires.

The former group -- those who want to have sex with children but whose desires are not distressing or harmful to themselves or others -- is no longer classified as having a psychiatric condition in the updated DSM.

This is pretty similar to how homosexuality was normalized back in 70s.

Thoughts?

The left can draw all manner of parallels between blacks and homosexuals, despite race and sexuality not being even vaguely the same thing, but drawing parallels between one mental disorder being normalized and another possibly being normalized, they're just stumped.

And before any of you get your panties wadded up your ass, I am referring to homosexuality as a mental disorder here primarily in reference to the fact that it was listed in the DSM at one time, and not as a value judgement regarding it.

Women used to be locked in mental institutions for having the temerity to think they could live by themselves without being under control of a man.

Epileptics used to be considered possessed by the devil.

Knowledge changes perception. Besides homosexuality what other behaviors used to be considered a mental illness Yahoo Answers

Pedophilia is harmful to children. Those who act on their attraction to children are committing a criminal offence . Homosexuality harms no one and was decriminalized long ago.

I asked this of the OP poster and did not get an answer......who the hell do you think wants to "normalize " pedophilia?

 

[iamwhatiseem]

The OP does bring in to question something that deserves considering. Are leftist groups, and progressive leftist in general, trying to lessen the severity of public opinion of pedophilia? Worse yet - lessen the severity of criminal punishment on molestation and child/adult sex when consensual?

 

[Skylar]

Not All Pedophiles Have Mental Disorder

In a move toward destigmatizing pedophilia, the American Psychiatric Association (APA) in its updated Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), distinguishes between pedophiles who desire sex with children, and those who act on those desires.

The former group -- those who want to have sex with children but whose desires are not distressing or harmful to themselves or others -- is no longer classified as having a psychiatric condition in the updated DSM.

This is pretty similar to how homosexuality was normalized back in 70s.

Thoughts?

The left can draw all manner of parallels between blacks and homosexuals, despite race and sexuality not being even vaguely the same thing, but drawing parallels between one mental disorder being normalized and another possibly being normalized, they're just stumped.

Pointless and arbitrary discrimination is the same. And there were enough parallel's in its application that the USSC cited cases involving race based discrimination when describing why discrmination against gays was invalid.....5 times in the last 20 years.

As for pedophilia being 'normalized', its not. There's no child molestor who is being told its okay to **** kids. The APA is simply drawing a distinction between those attracted to kids.....and those that **** them. It would be the same distinction between those that have violent impulses. And those that are actually violent.

You may not be able to understand the distinction. But the law certainly can.

 

[Skylar]

The OP does bring in to question something that deserves considering. Are leftist groups, and progressive leftist in general, trying to lessen the severity of public opinion of pedophilia? Worse yet - lessen the severity of criminal punishment on molestation and child/adult sex when consensual?

Which 'leftist groups' are champiniong pedophilia? its the wingers that keep bringing this topic up. Not the 'leftists'.

And how is recognizing the distinction between feelings of pedophilia and actually ******* kids 'lessening the severity of criminal punishment on molestation and child/sex when consenual'.

Specifically. And feel free to quote the APA to back your argument. You'll find that 'consensual' has nothing to do with the distinction they are drawing. The difference between thinking and acting is.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

The OP does bring in to question something that deserves considering. Are leftist groups, and progressive leftist in general, trying to lessen the severity of public opinion of pedophilia? Worse yet - lessen the severity of criminal punishment on molestation and child/adult sex when consensual?

What evidence do you have that anyone-besides perhaps pedophiles-are trying to promote pedophilia and lessen penalties for it. And why the hell would it be leftist progressive? Let me tell you something, I am a leftist progressive and I made a career out of protecting children from sexual abuse and putting the perpetrators under the ******* jail.

 

[Skylar]

The OP does bring in to question something that deserves considering. Are leftist groups, and progressive leftist in general, trying to lessen the severity of public opinion of pedophilia? Worse yet - lessen the severity of criminal punishment on molestation and child/adult sex when consensual?

What evidence do you have that anyone-besides perhaps pedophiles-are trying to promote pedophilia and lessen penalties for it. And why the hell would it be leftist progressive? Let me tell you something, I am a leftist progressive and I made a career out of protecting children from sexual abuse and putting the perpetrators under the ******* jail.

There's jack shit. This is just trying to use molestation victims as horses to ride for political mileage.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

The OP does bring in to question something that deserves considering. Are leftist groups, and progressive leftist in general, trying to lessen the severity of public opinion of pedophilia? Worse yet - lessen the severity of criminal punishment on molestation and child/adult sex when consensual?

Which 'leftist groups' are champiniong pedophilia? its the wingers that keep bringing this topic up. Not the 'leftists'.

And how is recognizing the distinction between feelings of pedophilia and actually ******* kids 'lessening the severity of criminal punishment on molestation and child/sex when consenual'.

Specifically. And feel free to quote the APA to back your argument. You'll find that 'consensual' has nothing to do with the distinction they are drawing. The difference between thinking and acting is.

I don't know what leftist groups, but I have seen a lot of examples of atrocious light sentencing and even refusals by some judges to incarcerate offenders.
Hollywood in the past few years has certainly gone a long way to sexualize children especially prepubescent girls...dressing them in provocative outfits, adult hair styles and make up.
Is there a "movement" of sorts in any political spectrum to lessen the negative opinions the general populace has on sexualizing children and pedophilia? That is my question.

As to APA's distinction...kind of a grey area. And perhaps it is a slippery slope.
I think it is important to be able to identify AND label those with paedophilia, and NOT waiting until they act out.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

O.C. judge who gave child molester reduced sentence is asked to resign - LA Times

Sex offender gets light sentence for molesting 8 victims - NY Daily News

Light Sentence for Child Molester Leaves Vermont Judge Under Fire Fox News

OC Judge Cuts 15 Years Off Mandatory Sentence of Man Convicted of Sodomizing Toddler KTLA

One Percenter Convicted Of Raping Child Dodges Jail Because He Will Not Fare Well

 

[Skylar]

The OP does bring in to question something that deserves considering. Are leftist groups, and progressive leftist in general, trying to lessen the severity of public opinion of pedophilia? Worse yet - lessen the severity of criminal punishment on molestation and child/adult sex when consensual?

Which 'leftist groups' are champiniong pedophilia? its the wingers that keep bringing this topic up. Not the 'leftists'.

And how is recognizing the distinction between feelings of pedophilia and actually ******* kids 'lessening the severity of criminal punishment on molestation and child/sex when consenual'.

Specifically. And feel free to quote the APA to back your argument. You'll find that 'consensual' has nothing to do with the distinction they are drawing. The difference between thinking and acting is.

I don't know what leftist groups, but I have seen a lot of examples of atrocious light sentencing and even refusals by some judges to incarcerate offenders.

Those instances are pretty rare. And usually involves issues of statutory rape where the 'kids' are in their mid to late teens. While technically minors, they're sexually active and can look quite adult. And even then, sentencing can be pretty severe, especially if the offender is a man and the victim is a girl. But in the last 10 years the disparity between women being sentenced and men on these kinds of crime has shored up to near equivalence.

Actual pedophilia generally involves prepubescence. And there's no one advocating ******* kids beyond NAMBLA. And those fuckers are disavowed by pretty much everyone.

Hollywood in the past few years has certainly gone a long way to sexualize children especially prepubescent girls...dressing them in provocative outfits, adult hair styles and make up.

I think that's more of a reflection of the fashion trends that already exist. Middle school girls aren't dressing like they did when I was a kid. They seem in such a rush to grow up. And again, the focus is on looking older. These girls are trying their best to look like grown women.

That's really not where pedophilia generally lies. They're looking for kids that are kids. Its the childhood they're attracted to. If they were attracted to females that look like mature women, they could find plenty of age appropriate partners.

Is there a "movement" of sorts in any political spectrum to lessen the negative opinions the general populace has on sexualizing children and pedophilia? That is my question.

I don't think so. I think there is a worship of youth. But not necessarily children. Young people in their 20s wield a grossly disproportionate influence given their contributions, skills and wisdom. I think kids see this power and influence and push to reach it earlier than they did before. `I'd say that the push to look more mature is a synthesis. Its clearly reflected in media which in turns reflects in behavior. But it goes both ways.

It would be an interesting conversation to see what pushes kids, especially girls, toward that degree of self sexualization that early. But I really don't think its 'leftists'.

As to APA's distinction...kind of a grey area. And perhaps it is a slippery slope.

I don't think so. The APA's standard is usually bad outcomes. ******* kids hurts people. Thinking about ******* kids, not so much. And the distinction between thought and action is pretty clear and thoroughly distinct. Both in terms of recognition and punishment.

If the line were fuzzy, I'd be more concerned. Its as clear as day. If you touch kids, you've crossed a line. If you haven't, you haven't.

I think it is important to be able to identify AND label those with paedophilia, and NOT waiting until they act out.

[/quote]

There seem to be people that don't feel compelled to act out on their fantasies. I know plenty of folks who have some pretty twisted ideas rolling around in their heads that they're never actually going to do. For those who feel a compulsion to act, even if they haven't yet.......we're on the same page. That's a high risk group. For those who merely fantasize but have no compulsion to act.....creepy as ****. But a qualitative difference.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

The OP does bring in to question something that deserves considering. Are leftist groups, and progressive leftist in general, trying to lessen the severity of public opinion of pedophilia? Worse yet - lessen the severity of criminal punishment on molestation and child/adult sex when consensual?

Which 'leftist groups' are champiniong pedophilia? its the wingers that keep bringing this topic up. Not the 'leftists'.

And how is recognizing the distinction between feelings of pedophilia and actually ******* kids 'lessening the severity of criminal punishment on molestation and child/sex when consenual'.

Specifically. And feel free to quote the APA to back your argument. You'll find that 'consensual' has nothing to do with the distinction they are drawing. The difference between thinking and acting is.

I don't know what leftist groups, but I have seen a lot of examples of atrocious light sentencing and even refusals by some judges to incarcerate offenders.

Those instances are pretty rare. And usually involves issues of statutory rape where the 'kids' are in their mid to late teens. While technically minors, they're sexually active and can look quite adult. And even then, sentencing can be pretty severe, especially if the offender is a man and the victim is a girl. But in the last 10 years the disparity between women being sentenced and men on these kinds of crime has shored up to near equivalence.

Actual pedophilia generally involves prepubescence. And there's no one advocating ******* kids beyond NAMBLA. And those fuckers are disavowed by pretty much everyone.

Hollywood in the past few years has certainly gone a long way to sexualize children especially prepubescent girls...dressing them in provocative outfits, adult hair styles and make up.

I think that's more of a reflection of the fashion trends that already exist. Middle school girls aren't dressing like they did when I was a kid. They seem in such a rush to grow up. And again, the focus is on looking older. These girls are trying their best to look like grown women.

That's really not where pedophilia generally lies. They're looking for kids that are kids. Its the childhood they're attracted to. If they were attracted to females that look like mature women, they could find plenty of age appropriate partners.

Is there a "movement" of sorts in any political spectrum to lessen the negative opinions the general populace has on sexualizing children and pedophilia? That is my question.

I don't think so. I think there is a worship of youth. But not necessarily children. Young people in their 20s wield a grossly disproportionate influence given their contributions, skills and wisdom. I think kids see this power and influence and push to reach it earlier than they did before. `I'd say that the push to look more mature is a synthesis. Its clearly reflected in media which in turns reflects in behavior. But it goes both ways.

It would be an interesting conversation to see what pushes kids, especially girls, toward that degree of self sexualization that early. But I really don't think its 'leftists'.

As to APA's distinction...kind of a grey area. And perhaps it is a slippery slope.

I don't think so. The APA's standard is usually bad outcomes. ******* kids hurts people. Thinking about ******* kids, not so much. And the distinction between thought and action is pretty clear and thoroughly distinct. Both in terms of recognition and punishment.

If the line were fuzzy, I'd be more concerned. Its as clear as day. If you touch kids, you've crossed a line. If you haven't, you haven't.

I think it is important to be able to identify AND label those with paedophilia, and NOT waiting until they act out.

There seem to be people that don't feel compelled to act out on their fantasies. I know plenty of folks who have some pretty twisted ideas rolling around in their heads that they're never actually going to do. For those who feel a compulsion to act, even if they haven't yet.......we're on the same page. That's a high risk group. For those who merely fantasize but have no compulsion to act.....creepy as ****. But a qualitative difference.[/QUOTE]

I can go with that.
I just hope we never get to the point to where Japan for instance is. What a creepy-creepy society. The entire anime/toon porn is just completely fucked up. I firmly believe that people who start watching this shit will certainly develop a taste for it in the real world...obvious natural progression. This weird "teen girly boy" thing that is HUUUGE in Japan is so strange, I see no natural reason why middle aged women are going ga-ga in droves over basically tranny 13 year old looking boys. Bizarre.
But it does show how a society can change with things like this. Japan's uber-conservative/traditional ways becoming this whacked out bizaro-world in just one generation is remarkable.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

O.C. judge who gave child molester reduced sentence is asked to resign - LA Times

Sex offender gets light sentence for molesting 8 victims - NY Daily News

Light Sentence for Child Molester Leaves Vermont Judge Under Fire Fox News

OC Judge Cuts 15 Years Off Mandatory Sentence of Man Convicted of Sodomizing Toddler KTLA

One Percenter Convicted Of Raping Child Dodges Jail Because He Will Not Fare Well

The premise of the thread is that pedophilia is being normalized.

You are posting these 5 articles about some rapes and child molestation cases that arguably were not handles appropriately. However, not all of them involved pre pubescent children which is the definition of pedophilia.

In any case, even if they were all actual cases of pedophilia, how does a few antidotal accounts like this relate to the OP?

If your point is that pedophilia is really being normalized , you have to do a better job of it than this. Name some names and organization that want to do so.

Describe the activities that they are engaged in. Explain their motives. I've asked this before of others and got nothing and do not expect much now either. It is irresponsible to imply that we are on some sort of slippery slope to pedophilia when you can't back it up.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

O.C. judge who gave child molester reduced sentence is asked to resign - LA Times

Sex offender gets light sentence for molesting 8 victims - NY Daily News

Light Sentence for Child Molester Leaves Vermont Judge Under Fire Fox News

OC Judge Cuts 15 Years Off Mandatory Sentence of Man Convicted of Sodomizing Toddler KTLA

One Percenter Convicted Of Raping Child Dodges Jail Because He Will Not Fare Well

The premise of the thread is that pedophilia is being normalized.

You are posting these 5 articles about some rapes and child molestation cases that arguably were not handles appropriately. However, not all of them involved pre pubescent children which is the definition of pedophilia.

In any case, even if they were all actual cases of pedophilia, how does a few antidotal accounts like this relate to the OP?

If your point is that pedophilia is really being normalized , you have to do a better job of it than this. Name some names and organization that want to do so.

Describe the activities that they are engaged in. Explain their motives. I've asked this before of others and got nothing and do not expect much now either. It is irresponsible to imply that we are on some sort of slippery slope to pedophilia when you can't back it up.

USA began with legalized pedophilia with the marriage age set at 10. As it stands right now, we have legalized hebephilia (sex with young teens) as per AoCs which allow young teens ot have sex with one another, and other laws allowing children as young as 12 to marry adults (Massachusetts et al.)

I don't see any concerted effort to make it widely acceptable, but I am seeing some worrisome things in how it's depicted in media and entertainment. Family Guy's pedophile old man character for one, South Park's "Cartman joins NAMBLA" episode for another. And certain adult-child themes in other recent movies like the animated "Up" about the old man and young boy, and "Wreck-It Ralph" with an adult type character befriending the female charcater he refers to as a kid. On the surface innocent and unremarkable, but under scrutiny raises my eyebrows when considered as a trend "normalizing" adult-child relationships however innocent. Trying to get people okay with something involves gradual steps, if you do too much too fast your aim is easier to see, do it gradual over many years incrementally...

It's worth keeping an eye on.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

Not All Pedophiles Have Mental Disorder

In a move toward destigmatizing pedophilia, the American Psychiatric Association (APA) in its updated Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), distinguishes between pedophiles who desire sex with children, and those who act on those desires.

The former group -- those who want to have sex with children but whose desires are not distressing or harmful to themselves or others -- is no longer classified as having a psychiatric condition in the updated DSM.

This is pretty similar to how homosexuality was normalized back in 70s.

Thoughts?

Similar? Horseshit. When homosexuality was dropped as a mental illness it was because the psychiatric community came to understand that homosexuals were quite capable of functioning just like everyone else and that the only thing that distinguished them from others is their sexual preference. They never made a distinction between those who act on their interests and those who do not.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

O.C. judge who gave child molester reduced sentence is asked to resign - LA Times

Sex offender gets light sentence for molesting 8 victims - NY Daily News

Light Sentence for Child Molester Leaves Vermont Judge Under Fire Fox News

OC Judge Cuts 15 Years Off Mandatory Sentence of Man Convicted of Sodomizing Toddler KTLA

One Percenter Convicted Of Raping Child Dodges Jail Because He Will Not Fare Well

The premise of the thread is that pedophilia is being normalized.

You are posting these 5 articles about some rapes and child molestation cases that arguably were not handles appropriately. However, not all of them involved pre pubescent children which is the definition of pedophilia.

In any case, even if they were all actual cases of pedophilia, how does a few antidotal accounts like this relate to the OP?

If your point is that pedophilia is really being normalized , you have to do a better job of it than this. Name some names and organization that want to do so.

Describe the activities that they are engaged in. Explain their motives. I've asked this before of others and got nothing and do not expect much now either. It is irresponsible to imply that we are on some sort of slippery slope to pedophilia when you can't back it up.

USA began with legalized pedophilia with the marriage age set at 10. As it stands right now, we have legalized hebephilia (sex with young teens) as per AoCs which allow young teens ot have sex with one another, and other laws allowing children as young as 12 to marry adults (Massachusetts et al.)

I don't see any concerted effort to make it widely acceptable, but I am seeing some worrisome things in how it's depicted in media and entertainment. Family Guy's pedophile old man character for one, South Park's "Cartman joins NAMBLA" episode for another. And certain adult-child themes in other recent movies like the animated "Up" about the old man and young boy, and "Wreck-It Ralph" with an adult type character befriending the female charcater he refers to as a kid. On the surface innocent and unremarkable, but under scrutiny raises my eyebrows when considered as a trend "normalizing" adult-child relationships however innocent. Trying to get people okay with something involves gradual steps, if you do too much too fast your aim is easier to see, do it gradual over many years incrementally...

It's worth keeping an eye on.

No US state sets the age of consent for marriage at 10. Some states allow marriage at 16 with parental consent and a few do not set a minimum age but parental consent AND a court order is required for marriage at an age lower that what is set for that state, usually 17 or 18. Age of marriage in the United States - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Sex between young teens has nothing to do with pedophilia. Neither is an adult. It is generally allowed as long as the age difference is not to great. In NJ it's 4 years.

There may be references to pedophilia in TV shows which is probably irresponsible but I am hard pressed to believe that there will ever be general support for relaxing the laws. It is child abuse plain and simple. Why the hell are we even talking about this? It has something to do with Obergefell, doesn't it?