An insurrection requires intelligence

[Catsnmeters]

Yes, my legitimate distrust of the legal system IS a valid legal defense of those who were convicted.

It's valid for your opinion but it is not legally valid.

Your distrust is subjective.

Legal judgements are based on facts.

To be convicted of a crime requires there to be criminal intent, not just a mistake. So the jury was likely badly instructed.

Everyone convicted of crimes that day had intent to do what they did.

Do you have an example otherwise?

I have been on half a dozen juries, and they were all terrible because the prosecutors lied and the naive jury believed them.

Your personal anecdotes and subsequent claims are irrelevant.

The prosecutors basically claimed that the jurors had to convict is the evidence was 51% in favor of guilt, and that was an outright lie.
The standard is overwhelming preponderance, beyond any reasonable doubt, which actually implies something like 98%.
We have one of the worst legal systems in the whole world, with the largest % imprisoned.
And it is obvious, since things like Dred Scott, Prohibition, the War on Drugs, etc., are all obviously illegal.

What does this have to do with the convicted seditious conspirators?

I am sorry you don't like our legal system.

Which country to you think has a better system and do you think they would absolve the seditious conspirators of their crimes?

And YES, if they actually believed there was voter fraud, then their actions not only were legal, but patriotic and to be celebrated.

No offense but that is an absurd contention.

Your logic would mean every crime would justified.

Your logic is so flawed I am starting to believe your motive is not reasonable discussion, but create, obfuscate, and mislead naive Americans to believe anyone who truly believes their crime is just, is not criminally liable?

How can that be real?

If you spent a month trying to determine if your bank was robbing you are not, and the bank and all banking officials refused to investigate, then YES, of course then you ARE obligated to rob the bank. It is the bank and the banking officials who have the legal obligation to prove to you otherwise. If they refuse, then they are part of the illegal conspiracy.

This is cartoon like.

And by the way, anyone who askes for a "yes" or "no" answer is an automatic liar because there actually is no question where that is appropriate. Only lawyers try to lie like that.

You were free to explain your answer.

All computers are easily hacked. To prove otherwise would require the manufacturer to reveal all internals, such as operating system code. Which was never done. So anyone claiming the voting machines can not be remotely rigged, is just a liar. The fact Dominion won the case is proof of how badly our court system is. Its like Dred Scott all over again.

Certainly what you say is correct.

Anyone saying little green men could not have climbed into voting machines and changed votes is a liar. It could have happened.

You need to prove it. Nobody has.

And again you lie by claiming a "plethora of investigations", when that is clearly not true and there has never been a single investigation. There was never time for one. For example, no one ever followed the people dumping bags full of ballots into the drop boxes. And if they were elderly facilities, no one ever did a handwriting analysis to determine if the staff was filling in the ballots instead of the elderly. Basically nothing has ever been looked into at all, in any way. And voter fraud is likely much worse now than 2000, when is was absurdly bad already.

That is just regurgitated nonsense.

Stop flailing and try to be specific while providing links. I don't have time for Gish gallop.

Thanks.

 

[Rigby5]

There was no reason to delay the certification of the election. All 50 states had certified.

Trying to have Hang Mike Pence throw it back to red state houses would have installed him.

That is a lie.
Delaying certification does not "throw it back to the red state houses", and there was no way for Trump to ever be installed.
Without certification, then Congress acts and by passes Pence.

 

[Lesh]

Insurrection is a legal term that is actually enumerated in federal law. It comes with a well established list of consequences including disqualification for elective office and well it should.

Now then. ..j6. let's make some observations. First of all Trespassing. Very stupid. I don't care who opens the door or who does the inviting. You should know better and what the hell is this? I mean are you serious?

View attachment 885644
Who could possibly take this seriously? Did this guy think he was helping?

So let's talk about first amendment and protesting.
It's allowed! Trespassing is not.
Destruction of federal property.
Bad idea!

If you're stupid enough to fall for agents provacatuer....then what can I say. You're stupid.

Does this fit the classic description of an actual insurrection? Hardly. That's actually a silly stretch. I will concede that the judiciary has a right to be harsh. I believe that 2020 was an illegitimate election. However you can't fix that by trespassing at the Capitol.

Real patriotism dictates that you find an answer within the legal boundaries even if your opponent did not.

This event never had a snowball's chance in hell at affecting a change in the election results. If 50 groups simultaneously besieged 50 state's capitols seeking to destroy actual physical election records Ok.... insurrection. But this? Nah....this was just sublime STUPID.

It sure looks like the Feds planned it and facilitated it. All they needed was dupes to fill in the numbers.

That's my 2 cents

Jo

Wait… so if you dress stupid you can’t be guilty of crimes?

That’s the gist of what you claimed

 

[Rigby5]

It's valid for your opinion but it is not legally valid.

Your distrust is subjective.

Legal judgements are based on facts.



Everyone convicted of crimes that day had intent to do what they did.

Do you have an example otherwise?



Your personal anecdotes and subsequent claims are irrelevant.



What does this have to do with the convicted seditious conspirators?

I am sorry you don't like our legal system.

Which country to you think has a better system and do you think they would absolve the seditious conspirators of their crimes?



No offense but that is an absurd contention.

Your logic would mean every crime would justified.

Your logic is so flawed I am starting to believe your motive is not reasonable discussion, but create, obfuscate, and mislead naive Americans to believe anyone who truly believes their crime is just, is not criminally liable?

How can that be real?



This is cartoon like.



You were free to explain your answer.



Certainly what you say is correct.

Anyone saying little green men could not have climbed into voting machines and changed votes is a liar. It could have happened.

You need to prove it. Nobody has.


That is just regurgitated nonsense.

Stop flailing and try to be specific while providing links. I don't have time for Gish gallop.

Thanks.

My opinions are based on the obvious fact the Jan6 protestors could not possibly in any way have altered the election in any negative way.
Those claiming it intended to, have to be absolute liars who are themselves attempting insurrection.

Those convicted of sedition when there is zero evidence that any sedition was even remotely possible, clearly is malicious prosecution intended to illegal bias the up coming election.

Obviously not every crime is justifiable, but when there is no evidence or even any remote possibility of a corrupt motive, then is cannot possibly be a criminal act.

We have a terrible legal system, with obviously illegal laws in history, like slavery, the Dred Scott Decision, Prohibition, the Alien and Sedition Art, the War on Drugs, etc.
We likely should have had another rebellion around 1890, to prevent the illegal Spanish American war. And it seems more than obvious that this corrupt legal system is attempting to illegally prevent or at least bias the next election. Which really would be an insurrection.

As far as voter fraud, there is no easy way for "little green men" to do anything, since no one has ever seen them. But it is trivial for computers to commit voter fraud, since we all know very similar computer hacks are done ALL THE TIME.
So anyone claiming it is impossible is obviously lying.
It is so easy that no rational person should ever have allowed computers to be used as voting machines.
And there are dozens of other obviously easy ways to commit voter fraud on a wholesale basis.
Anyone denying that is obviously lying.
And anyone preventing investigation into voter fraud is obviously also guilty, regardless of whether or not it could have tipped the election.

 

[otto105]

That is a lie.
Delaying certification does not "throw it back to the red state houses", and there was no way for Trump to ever be installed.
Without certification, then Congress acts and by passes Pence.

So, what were the fake electors then from those red states.

 

[Rigby5]

Wait… so if you dress stupid you can’t be guilty of crimes?

That’s the gist of what you claimed

I think you will find that the point is that if you deliberately dress outrageously, you are not trying to get way with a crime, but instead are deliberately trying to draw attention to something you think is wrong and need public attention to fix.

 

[Chillicothe]

Well, as much as I love this bar.....I still could only get through about 40 of these little fantasy posts.

In truth, I probably don't need to see more. The first 40 offered lotsa.....lotsa...... opportunities. So let's play with some.
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This event never had a snowball's chance in hell at affecting a change in the election results. .... But this? Nah....this was just sublime STUPID.

OK, no need to debate the 'stupidity' quotient.
But will, point out --- who is the purported hand inside the stupid-puppet?
Well, it appears to be the 'stable genius' himself......which surprises who, exactly?
Don does dumb stuff. Says stupid stuff. You know that. I know that. Everybody knows that.
So, there is that.
----------------------------------------

"It sure looks like the Feds planned it and facilitated it. All they needed was dupes to fill in the numbers."

"Feds planned it and facilitated it"? Really?
I guess that means we do hafta go back to debating 'stupid'.
Here, good post J.O. watch this.
Do these Proud Boys look 'fed'-like to you? Civil servants? Deep State bureaucrats?
Or are gonna claim they are 'deep cover'?

Proud Boys Led Major Breaches of Capitol on Jan. 6, Video Investigation Finds (Published 2022)

A monthslong Times investigation using court documents, text messages and videos reveals how teams of Proud Boys instigated critical breaches of the Capitol on Jan. 6.

www.nytimes.com

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That's my 2 cents

Get more money.
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"This whole j6 thing looks like a professional construct designed and implemented by a team of psycologists using an unusually high concentration of hot button issues, images and circumstances;"

Oh boy.
Here J.O.....watch this. (again) Proud Boys Led Major Breaches of Capitol on Jan. 6, Video Investigation Finds (Published 2022)

Does Joe Biggs and colleagues look like a team of psychologists to you?

----------------------------------------------------------

Holy crap. A steady stream of these threads. Still!

Don't discourage 'em too much, M58.
These blokes are fun.

--------------------------------------

Convictions from a corrupt court do not impress me or any other thinking person.

Well, actually, poster Lastamender, it was several courts. Several judges.
So there is that. Regardless if you think you are a thinking person, or not.
---------------------------------------------

Never Ever Never were in a position to take over US government and run their own

Oh, how right your are. Those knuckleheads were...as poster JustOffal perceptively points out..... just stupid MAGA's cultists.

But, in truth, they were merely cannon fodder, or as I read on this venue....they were the deus ex machina Trump and enablers intended to use as their reason to cancel the legitimate EC votes and then substitute their own fraudulent EC ballots.

In short, Trump and conspirators were trying to keep the existing US government....not replace it. It was, after all, them.
---------------------------------------------------

the creation of homO, a group of left wing homos pretending to support Trump

And good poster EMH enters the discussion and adds his gravitas and validation to the other MAGA's here.

Thanx, amigo. You kinda make my point, to be honest.


-------------
I love this bar!

 

[Rigby5]

So, what were the fake electors then from those red states.

I keep reading about "fake electors", but nothing has any substance.
I do not see how "fake electors" are remotely possible, and I have read NOTHING that substantiates that any fake electors ever existed.
There always are alternate electors prepared, but they can't do anything.
Electors cast their vote in an open meeting of the state legislature, and everyone knows who they are and how they are supposed to vote.
So I see no possible way for any elector fraud.

 

[Catsnmeters]

While I agree a seditious attempt does not have to succeed in order to be prosecutable, it does at least have to have been possible.
And there is absolutely no possible way to keep Trump in office with the Jan 6 protest.

1. Possibility is subjective and thus irrelevant. Even the most sophisticated attempts could be considered objectively possible or not. That is not a standard for law.

2. Again. You must not be familiar with the fake electors scheme and the Eastman memo.

Since none of the protestors brough weapons capable of subduing the police, the police could easily have forced them all out at any time.

1. Police were subdued and beaten.

2. Many "weapons" were brought and and utilized against the capital.

3. People were also armed with firearms and Trump knew they were armed when he sent them to the capital.

3. So in your opinion an unarmed mob is not capable of subduing police?

You are wasting my time with these rediculous assertions.

Since none of the protestors brought sleeping bags, they all had to leave that day either way.
So then at worst, the election certification could only at most been delayed a single day.
In what possible way could that have remotely been beneficial to Trump?

Again, you must not be familiar with the Eastman memo and fake electors.

Sedition does not have to succeed in order to be prosecutable, but the actions of those involved have to at least appear as if they thought it could have succeeded.

Please link that contention. You are stating that a poorly planned seditious conspiricy is not criminal.

Anyone else seeing this stuff? Lol.

And it obvious could not have.
No one could have been so deranged as to think a 1 day delay would at all help Trump in anyway.

Again, evidently you are not familiar with the fake electors scheme and the Eastman memo.

I am aware of how alternate electors are always selected by all parties ahead of time, and that the state legislature listens to and tallies the elector's votes, so no fake electors are at all possible.
The state legislators already know who the valid electors are and how they are supposed to vote.

And that is the crime. The fake electors forged documents claiming to be the real electors.

Have you not read the indictments?

Really...are you going to tell me that forgery is not illegal if they think the election was stolen?

And again, you are totally wrong about what sedition is.
The protestors were not against the way the government is supposed to be run, but were claiming there was a criminal alteration of how the government is supposed to be run, and in effect they were acting as vigilantes.
That is NOT sedition at all, but is being hyper patriotic, the exact opposite.

That violates the law and your subjective opinion regarding what is sedition and what is patriotic is irrelevant.

The courts convicting them of sedition likely are corrupt liars, (unless there is more that have not been told about, which is very unlikely).

"Likely" is a great propaganda word.

If your proof is your opinion then you are wasting my time.

 

[Rigby5]

Well, as much as I love this bar.....I still could only get through about 40 of these little fantasy posts.

In truth, I probably don't need to see more. The first 40 offered lotsa.....lotsa...... opportunities. So let's play with some.
----------------------------------------------


OK, no need to debate the 'stupidity' quotient.
But will, point out --- who is the purported hand inside the stupid-puppet?
Well, it appears to be the 'stable genius' himself......which surprises who, exactly?
Don does dumb stuff. Says stupid stuff. You know that. I know that. Everybody knows that.
So, there is that.
----------------------------------------


"Feds planned it and facilitated it"? Really?
I guess that means we do hafta go back to debating 'stupid'.
Here, good post J.O. watch this.
Do these Proud Boys look 'fed'-like to you? Civil servants? Deep State bureaucrats?
Or are gonna claim they are 'deep cover'?

Proud Boys Led Major Breaches of Capitol on Jan. 6, Video Investigation Finds (Published 2022)

A monthslong Times investigation using court documents, text messages and videos reveals how teams of Proud Boys instigated critical breaches of the Capitol on Jan. 6.

www.nytimes.com

-------------------------------------------------------


Get more money.
--------------------------------------------------

Oh boy.
Here J.O.....watch this. (again) Proud Boys Led Major Breaches of Capitol on Jan. 6, Video Investigation Finds (Published 2022)

Does Joe Biggs and colleagues look like a team of psychologists to you?

----------------------------------------------------------


Don't discourage 'em too much, M58.
These blokes are fun.

--------------------------------------


Well, actually, poster Lastamender, it was several courts. Several judges.
So there is that. Regardless if you think you are a thinking person, or not.
---------------------------------------------

Oh, how right your are. Those knuckleheads were...as poster JustOffal perceptively points out..... just stupid MAGA's cultists.

But, in truth, they were merely cannon fodder, or as I read on this venue....they were the deus ex machina Trump and enablers intended to use as their reason to cancel the legitimate EC votes and then substitute their own fraudulent EC ballots.

In short, Trump and conspirators were trying to keep the existing US government....not replace it. It was, after all, them.
---------------------------------------------------



And good poster EMH enters the discussion and adds his gravitas and validation to the other MAGA's here.

Thanx, amigo. You kinda make my point, to be honest.


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I love this bar!

That makes no sense.
The electors are known to the state legislators they announce their vote to, and the state legislators know already how the electors are supposed to cast their vote.
Then the state congressmen carry that vote collected in the state legislature, to congress, where they announce it to all of Congress, who also know what the vote was supposed to be.
So there is absolutely no opportunity at all for anyone to ever substitute anything for the legitimate vote.

Nor is there anyway for Trump to have stayed in office.
When his term runs out, that is it, he is history.
If there is a problem with the next president, Trump has nothing to do with it.
The Speaker of the House can be president pro-tem if necessary.
But the previous president can never stay in office.
No one would ever write a law like that, encouraging insurrection.

 

[Rigby5]

1. Possibility is subjective and thus irrelevant. Even the most sophisticated attempts could be considered objectively possible or not. That is not a standard for law.

2. Again. You must not be familiar with the fake electors scheme and the Eastman memo.



1. Police were subdued and beaten.

2. Many "weapons" were brought and and utilized against the capital.

3. People were also armed with firearms and Trump knew they were armed when he sent them to the capital.

3. So in your opinion an unarmed mob is not capable of subduing police?

You are wasting my time with these rediculous assertions.



Again, you must not be familiar with the Eastman memo and fake electors.



Please link that contention. You are stating that a poorly planned seditious conspiricy is not criminal.

Anyone else seeing this stuff? Lol.



Again, evidently you are not familiar with the fake electors scheme and the Eastman memo.



And that is the crime. The fake electors forged documents claiming to be the real electors.

Have you not read the indictments?

Really...are you going to tell me that forgery is not illegal if they think the election was stolen?



That violates the law and your subjective opinion regarding what is sedition and what is patriotic is irrelevant.


"Likely" is a great propaganda word.

If your proof is your opinion then you are wasting my time.

Wrong.
It is irrational and illegal to claim there was a plot that is impossible.
There is absolutely no way for Pence to have selectively voided some electors, thus allowing Trump to win.
He can only certify or not.
So regardless of what the does, Trump would not remain president.
And I am familiar with the Eastman papers, and they do not in any way suggest that there is any way for Trump to have stayed in office.

The actual evidence suggests that Trump believed there was voter fraud, and that an actual investigation would have revealed that.
That was the only possible way he could ever have another term.

And no, police were NOT subdued or beaten.
Only one cop fell and was temporarily vulnerable.
But at any time, is any cop felt at all vulnerable, they could and would have just started shooting.
They shot Ashlie Babbitt for no reason at all, so clearly they always had total control.

And you are way confused if you keep talking about elector forgeries.
There ZERO papers involved the electors casting their votes.
They do it verbally, in the state legislature.

 

[Rigby5]

The fed? Yeah, I've heard of him. He pled guilty, so no he didn't claim entrapment. If you don't know the answer it's okay not to say something stupid instead.

The point of me bringing up Ray Epps is that he was on video encouraging the protestors constantly to go into the capital, but then himself did not.
That implies he was an agent provocateur.
If he actually thought going into the capital was such a good idea, he would have also participated.

 

[Rigby5]

Jesus, Rigby5 , I have no time to play these games. Everything about your arguments is dumb, illogical, or irrelevant. This is not about individual Jan. 6th protester’s motivations, but juries, prosecutors and judges certainly take that into consideration in individual cases in deciding verdicts and sentencing. which is only one reason why penalties vary and are often mild. Again, most of those convicted confessed to breaking the law!

There were undoubtedly silly fools (like yourself?) who may have “meant well” and just got excited and found themselves doing illegal things they later regretted on Jan. 6th … without being in the slightest consciously part of any “criminal conspiracy,” let alone “insurrection.”

That has nothing to do with the charges being brought against Trump and hard core conscious organizers of his attempt to disqualify and “steal” certified state electoral slates and throw the election into the House to keep himself in power illegally … or any of the other crimes he and his alleged seditious co-conspirators are charged with.

The motivations and trials of many really violent individual protestors who battled cops and broke into the Capitol also has little to do with all the other criminal charges being brought against Trump and others who never entered the Capitol. Except perhaps to the extent that they are charged with exciting and provoking such actions, as in Giuliani’s incitement to “trial by combat.” “Leaders” like Trump are being adjudicated in their own court trials separately for their own alleged crimes, as they should be, and they have expensive lawyers and all the rights provided by our judicial system, where they have the right to appeal right up to the Conservative Republican-dominated Supreme Court.

Damn, here I am wasting my time with you again!

Wrong.
The point is the individual convictions were illegal since the protestors clearly were not trying to harm the existing laws, but to try to get them enforced when they were not being enforced.
They wanted an official investigation into voter fraud, and the lack of that investigation was illegal.

As far as Trump goes, that makes no sense because there is absolutely zero way for Trump to have used the protestors in any way, to have remained in power.
No matter if Pence certified or not, Trump would be out of office.

 

[Rigby5]

There was no reason to delay the certification of the election. All 50 states had certified.

Trying to have Hang Mike Pence throw it back to red state houses would have installed him.

Wrong.
At most the protestors could only delay certification 1 day.
And the point of the protest was just to get an official investigation, which not only had never been done, but was illegal not to do.

Nothing Pence could have done would have "thrown it back to the red state houses".
Nor could the red state houses alter the way the electors had voted already.
Nothing at all would have benefited Trump in any way.

 

[otto105]

Wrong.
At most the protestors could only delay certification 1 day.
And the point of the protest was just to get an official investigation, which not only had never been done, but was illegal not to do.

Nothing Pence could have done would have "thrown it back to the red state houses".
Nor could the red state houses alter the way the electors had voted already.
Nothing at all would have benefited Trump in any way.

Investigation of what? All states certified as fair and accurate.

As of today, no accusation of massive voter fraud has been proven.

So, what were the fake electors.

 

[Catsnmeters]

Wrong.
It is irrational and illegal to claim there was a plot that is impossible.
There is absolutely no way for Pence to have selectively voided some electors, thus allowing Trump to win.
He can only certify or not.
So regardless of what the does, Trump would not remain president.
And I am familiar with the Eastman papers, and they do not in any way suggest that there is any way for Trump to have stayed in office.

Regardless of your thots and feels on the potential conclusions of the seditious conspiracy, seditious conspiricy does not need to be possible in order for it be seditious conspiracy...unless it says so in the definition I posted earlier.

Can you highlight where that is stated as a condition please.

The actual evidence suggests that Trump believed there was voter fraud, and that an actual investigation would have revealed that.
That was the only possible way he could ever have another term.

There were several investigations and what Trump believed does not excuse breakimg the law.

Again, that is an outlandish assertion that could potentially make any illegals act legal.

And no, police were NOT subdued or beaten.

Yes they were.

Only one cop fell and was temporarily vulnerable.

Not true.

But at any time, is any cop felt at all vulnerable, they could and would have just started shooting.
They shot Ashlie Babbitt for no reason at all, so clearly they always had total control.

They shot her because she was a violent traitor breaking into the capital with other violent traitors.

And you are way confused if you keep talking about elector forgeries.
There ZERO papers involved the electors casting their votes.
They do it verbally, in the state legislature.

They forged documents. That is illegal.

 

[EMH]

And good poster EMH enters the discussion and adds his gravitas and validation

EMH hit the dead center of the yellow bullseye. Q-Anon is a homO controlled false flag hate hoax group and Jacob Chansley is a left wing Zionist homo who is pals with the Pelosi Klan as well as homO and Big Mike, and likely is pals with dePape too...