An Informal Debate on Race Relations in the United States Including Its History

[Porter Rockwell]

Here comes the christian identity junk. This country was already inhabited. You bought slaves over here. What YOU have done is validate Newsvines introduction. You have lose the debate already.

If I've lost any debate then the truth has no place here. All I'm doing is to quote history. You've not disputed the facts. Sticking a label on the material and declaring a winner in a REAL debate would have eliminated you. I've already addressed the fact that there were people here; however, you ignored TWO important facts:

1) They were not civilized which didn't give them much of a chance in a fight AND

2) The colonists took the land based upon the internationally accepted Right of Conquest... which I bolded and whether it was right or wrong, it was perfectly legal. Adding insult to injury I went on to make a correlation between current U.S. policies toward other nations and the fact that we do it in foreign lands without any discussion or debate and, instead of forming a factual response to that you told a bare faced, rotten, stinking lie. You think that everybody that doesn't bow down and kiss your royal ass is "Identity." You proclaim anyone that disagrees with you to be racist, etc. and most people put your dumb ass on ignore. One thing that is the irrefutable truth here is that you are a low down, no good, lying piece of shit. Now, are we going to have a debate or do you want a pissing match OR does the OP want me to disappear? I can be uninvited as quickly as I got invited.

 

[IM2]

The second part of the definition of ENTITLEMENT is: A right to benefits specified by law or contract. I will continue to say whites have no room to talk about how others have an entitlement mentality. I am now about to present why. Whenever the conversation is about race, inevitably we have to listen to a lecture about how whites were never given anything. I have been told how blacks should do things more like whites. That blacks need to pull themselves up by the bootstraps. History shows these comments to be at best, a misstatement. Anyone making such a comment really needs to do an honest assessment of how whites actually accomplished what they have. I am not sure they want us as to do things the exact same way. Doing so would include creating laws to confiscate all property and money whites have, creating laws making it illegal for whites to educate themselves and pass laws making whites chattel. Just a few things to consider because there are many more and none of them are good. Some folks might want to slow down on the lectures. Let us look at a few examples of how benefits were granted as specified by law or policy.

In 1618, the Virginia colony passed "the Great Charter of privileges, orders and laws." Among these laws was a provision that any person who settled in Virginia or paid for the transportation of another person to settle in Virginia would get fifty acres of land for each immigrant. The right to receive fifty acres per person, or per head, was called a headright. It got even better for colonists as those who paid for slaves also got 50 acres per slave. The practice was continued by the government of Virginia after the Virginia Company dissolved. This procedure remained in effect for 161 years until May 1779. Headrights were not only limited to Virginia. The headright system was used in Maryland, Georgia, North Carolina and South Carolina. Headrights were just the first of many government handouts of free stuff or guarantees providing whites with economic development assistance.

A right to benefits specified by law or contract. The Constitution of the United States is the supreme law of this land. Included in the constitution is the 3/5th’s compromise. The Three-Fifths Compromise is found in Article 1, Section 2, Clause 3 of the United States Constitution. It says: “Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.”

There are all kinds of stories telling us how the so called founders struggled for several years to figure out how to figure out how much of a person blacks would count as human in order to be determined for representation in congress. After all blacks could not be as human as whites, no way! Starting in 1783 our wise and omniscient founders began to try figuring out how to count slaves as population for representation. By 1787, they figured it out. This ridiculous “conclusion’ blacks did not agree to, allowed actual humans to count as 3/5th’s of a person because they were slaves. Whites still counted as whole people. Yet there were free blacks so the compromise would not have conferred entitlements just on whites, so according to white conservative Limbaugh logic, this renders my claims as simply a black man whining.

“This unfortunate difference of color, and perhaps of faculty, is a powerful obstacle to the emancipation of these people.”

Thomas Jefferson ​

Let me keep on crying and show you another example. On March 26, 1790, the United States of America decided who could be a citizen of this country for the first time. This was a congressional decision named The Naturalization Act of 1790. The act states: “any alien, being a free white person,” could apply for citizenship, so long as he or she lived in the United States for at least two years, and in the state where the application was filed for at least a year. The new law also provided that “children of citizens of the United States that may be born … out of the limits of the United States shall be considered as natural born citizens.” Please notice the first 7 words. Only whites were entitled to be citizens of this country. Never mind the Native American nations already here. Blacks could forget about it. But hey “we’ve never been given anything because of our race.” Everybody knows you had better not be standing behind a horse when it raises its tail because you know what’s coming. When whites say the government has never given them anything, it’s the same stuff.

One of the greatest miscarriages of justice in this nation’s history was a direct rebuttal to the claim of all men are created equal called Dred Scott v. Sandford. I am not going into all the particulars of this case. I am not a law professional or legal expert. The court’s opinion says all you need to know. “A black man has no rights a white man is bound to respect.” Just think about that one. Can anyone say special rights or extra rights? Because that is the end result of Dred Scott v. Sandford. Whites were given additional rights and special status while blacks had no rights and no constitutional protection by law. I guess the equal protection clause did not apply to blacks at that time. But hey, that’s just how they thought back then. Funny how that rationale is not applied to Nat Turner since the slaves back then thought about killing whites who enslaved them.

"But not only did they give them land, "they built land grant colleges with government money to teach them how to farm. Not only that, they provided county agents to further their expertise in farming. Not only that, they provided low interest rates in order that they could mechanize their farms."

"Not only that, today many of these people are receiving millions of dollars in federal subsidies not to

farm, and they are the very people telling the black man that he ought to lift himself by his own bootstraps. And this is what we are faced with, and this is the reality."

Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.​

There was a series of acts in beginning in 1850 that primarily provided whites with one of the greatest government economic assistance programs ever. They were called the Homestead Acts. These acts gave 600,000 families or 1.6 million Americans land basically for free as incentive to move west.

“And be it further enacted, That to all white male citizens of the United States or persons who shall have made a declaration of intention to become such, above the age of twenty-one years, emigrating to and settling in said Territory between the first day of December, eighteen hundred and fifty, and the first day of December, eighteen hundred and fifty-three; and to all white male citizens, not hereinbefore provided for, becoming one and twenty years of age, in said Territory, and settling there between the times last aforesaid, who shall in other respects comply with the foregoing section and the provisions of this law, there shall be, and hereby is, granted the quantity of one quarter section, or one hundred and sixty acres of land, if a single man; or if married, or if he shall become married within one year after becoming twenty-one years of age as aforesaid, the quantity of one half section, or three hundred and twenty acres, one half to the husband and the other half to the wife in her own right, to be designated by the surveyor-general as aforesaid: Provided always, That no person shall ever receive a patent for more than one donation of land in said Territory in his or her own right: Provided, That no mineral lands shall be located or granted under the provisions of this act.”

The Donation Land Claim Act of 1850, Section 5​

This act gave FREE land to whites to settle in what is now Oregon, Washington, Idaho, and parts of Wyoming and Montana. This land was given away from 1850 until 1854. In 1854 the government decided to charge 1.25 per acre. The law expired in 1855. In addition, several government programs were created to help whites in this westward expansion.

For those who do not understand the reality of how the past extends into today, I present you the Morrill Act of 1862. Early American society and the economy was based on agriculture. In the mid-1800s, the U.S. population was over 80 percent rural. So as Dr. King so eloquently described, the government saw the need to provide education and services to assist whites moving west in order to help them survive on the free land the government provided. Because of that the United States Congress passed the Morrill Act of 1862 better known as the Land Grant Act. The act gave each state 30,000 acres of land per senator that was to be used to provide education in agriculture, home economics, mechanical arts, and any other profession available during that time period in American history. They used the grants of land to build colleges, thus Land Grant colleges are one result of the Morrill Act.

The Homestead Acts began more than one decade before the end of slavery. This alone should provide evidence of the limited benefit this act had for blacks in America. The overturning of Field Order 15 by President Andrew Johnson also reduced the positive effect such land grants would have provided for blacks. The 1863 Homestead Act provided that a person had to be a citizen in order to qualify and blacks were not given citizenship until 1866. But the major impediment for blacks in regard to homesteading was the lack of documentation. This lack of documentation was due to slavery. Many of the newly freed slaves did not have the documents needed to prove their identity, such as birth certificates. Blacks were able to get the documentation after registering for citizenship once freed but that documentation was not considered proof by whites This was one method whites at that time used in order to restrict the freedmen from acquiring status.

After a lifetime of slavery it should be noted that many freed blacks did not have complete knowledge of the law. Because it was illegal for blacks to read or write, it should not be surprising that many blacks did not have the documents needed or the ability to write wills in order to pass down land ownership to succeeding generations. If land was not specifically passed down to named people, the property would go to all of the next in line, and they could sell their land without informing anybody else. This inability to provide documents proving identity made it hard for newly freed slaves to gain ownership of land and many other things. The disingenuous argument is made declaring how blacks could homestead, but that argument will not recognize or mention the impediments blacks faced in order to do so. These impediments limited blacks, yet it did not stop them. In a lot of cases white violence did.

Needless to say, blacks were not allowed to attend many Morrill Act institutions. So in order to combat this, the U.S Congress came up with the Agricultural College Act of 1890, (26 Stat. 417, 7 U.S.C. § 321 et seq.) or easier remembered as the Morrill Act of 1890. Signed on August 30, 1890, the Second Morrill Act made it so that black Americans could be admitted into Land Grant Colleges. States having separate colleges for blacks and whites were required to create colleges to train black students in agriculture, mechanical arts, and architecture just like whites. This law created some of the Americas legendary HBCU’S, but until desegregation became the law, black land grant colleges were not equally funded. These land grants established white economic advancement and as Dr. King said, they established an economic floor for the European immigrants that entered America. At the same time blacks were freed from slavery and that economic floor was ripped out from under them thanks to President Andrew Johnson.

On April 16, 1895, the United States Supreme Court rendered one of the sorriest decisions in American history. It was known as Plessy vs. Ferguson. From this decision came the principle of separate but equal. This decision was steeped in racism because it determined that blacks were not worthy to be in the same facilities and that racial segregation was fine just as long as equal facilities existed for blacks. So while whites believed blacks were inferior, they were supposed to make certain that blacks and whites had equal facilities even if the races were to stay apart. States made certain to enforce the separate part, but the equal never came. Not for blacks. For whites though, it was an entirely different story. Black public facilities were often cheaply built and blacks schools were underfunded. Black communities lacked amenities white communities had.

 

[IM2]

If I've lost any debate then the truth has no place here. All I'm doing is to quote history. You've not disputed the facts. Sticking a label on the material and declaring a winner in a REAL debate would have eliminated you. I've already addressed the fact that there were people here; however, you ignored TWO important facts:

1) They were not civilized which didn't give them much of a chance in a fight AND

2) The colonists took the land based upon the internationally accepted Right of Conquest... which I bolded and whether it was right or wrong, it was perfectly legal. Adding insult to injury I went on to make a correlation between current U.S. policies toward other nations and the fact that we do it in foreign lands without any discussion or debate and, instead of forming a factual response to that you told a bare faced, rotten, stinking lie. You think that everybody that doesn't bow down and kiss your royal ass is "Identity." You proclaim anyone that disagrees with you to be racist, etc. and most people put your dumb ass on ignore. One thing that is the irrefutable truth here is that you are a low down, no good, lying piece of shit. Now, are we going to have a debate or do you want a pissing match OR does the OP want me to disappear? I can be uninvited as quickly as I got invited.

You aren't speaking truth. You are posting racism.

The people here when whites got here and there was no international right of conquest then nor has there ever been. I don't require my ass to be kissed, you're a racist and what you have posted is Christian Identity garbage.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

No, I have a problem with people like you who clearly hate people based on skin color and want power over others.
People like you aren't to be trusted..... ever. You are always scheming to take advantage over others.

While it's obvious that you and most people on U.S. Message Board don't like IM2 however I don't believe it's for the reasons you state.

From what I know of IM2 the only people he detests (not going to use the word hate) are the white racists here who continue to denigrate and disparage him because he gives as good as he gets in response to the racial animosity directed at him.

I find it very intriguing however that you think he wants control over others, exactly in what capacity do you imagine this? And why are you afraid of that because for almost our entire lives white people have been in control of our job opportunites, our housing opportunities, educational opportunites, have been the police officers in our communities, etc. Why is it that you seem to think that if IM2 were in a position of authority that he would use it to abuse or hurt someone because that's what you're implying otherwise there would be no need to be frightened.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Hey Everyone, I'm getting a late start and have been trying to catch up by reading everything but it's going to take a while.

So far I'm not seeing anyone defending the position that America is not racist, just insults. You all want to contribute something or are you here just to gripe?

And please, stop insulting and making personal attacks on the other commenters. You all are not honoring the agreement, including the people who are here that weren't invited. And that says something.

 

[IM2]

Rockwell,

What you claim is based on old European belief called scientific racism.

read post 28.

 

[freyasman]

While it's obvious that you and most people on U.S. Message Board don't like IM2 however I don't believe it's for the reasons you state.

From what I know of IM2 the only people he detests (not going to use the word hate) are the white racists here who continue to denigrate and disparage him because he gives as good as he gets in response to the racial animosity directed at him.

I find it very intriguing however that you think he wants control over others, exactly in what capacity do you imagine this? And why are you afraid of that because for almost our entire lives white people have been in control of our job opportunites, our housing opportunities, educational opportunites, have been the police officers in our communities, etc. Why is it that you seem to think that if IM2 were in a position of authority that he would use it to abuse or hurt someone because that's what you're implying otherwise there would be no need to be frightened.

Because almost every single person I have ever encountered in a position of authority, has abused that authority at least some of the time.
And I don't buy his act; he hides his intentions behind reams of information, much of which is nothing but biased bullshit, but honestly it wouldn't matter if it was all true, because it's just noise.... it's a distraction.
His behavior is just like that of every predator I have ever encountered, distract and deflect while maneuvering to a position of advantage, and then overwhelm the victim when they are not expecting it.
You deal with that by refusing to pay attention to their diversions and telling them to back the fuck off. And if they don't, then your fears about their intentions are now confirmed, aren't they?
So go ahead and hurt them with a clear conscience.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

NewsVine_Mariyam
Your comment... I can't adequately express how incredulous it is to me to hear people attempt to claim that the people of the United States, which was founded by white supremacists, some how magically had a change of hearts and minds after 171 years of legally sanctioned oppression and subjugation of people of African descent and were able to leave behind their deeply held beliefs of racial superiority, simply because the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed, effectively putting an end to legal racial discrimation.
Shows me you have no intent to discuss racial issues. Your mind is clearly closed. You, incredulously, seem to think that white people today are the same people as those that first came here. What an ignorant statement. That somehow we are tainted people. Which, by definition, is racist.

First of all, if you can show me what in my opening statement is false, I'd appreciate it.

Secondly, does it matter if the people today are not the same people if they hold the same beliefs? Because we know that ever since the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed, that people have continued to violate it's provisions and engage in racial discrimination against African Americans among others and not just in employment, but housing, education, etc.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

And telling me I must "shut my mouth and listen" is a blatant attempt to silence others...... fuck that, fuck you, fuck the horse you rode in on, and fuck everybody in the Yellow Pages with the same last name as you.

Nobody tells me to shut up unless they are willing to kill or die over it.
That's how strongly I feel about that.


If that "community" wants to better itself they can, right now and today, with no help from anyone else, stop having kids out of wedlock...... fatherless kids do worse by every metric there is.
You want shit to be better? Then fucking make it better.

You realize that wasn't directed to you personally right?

Please refrain from insulting and making personal attacks on the other invitees. And really, the way you to speak to women is rather appalling. Do you speak to your wife that way?

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Well this thread went to shit fast.
Here is my surprise look.......

Yeah that would be your evaluation, but then again look who brought the shit to it.

Still believe you're not a racist?

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

there are many "colleges" that specialize in flunking students and taking government grants to do just that.
Let's see a raise of hands in how many of you know there are colleges that have over 90% fail rate? Anyone?
You would think this would be identified and those schools examined as to why they have such extraordinary fail rates.
But instead of doing that - the government keeps INCREASING the funds - so the schools just keep right on taking the money and failing students. NO ONE IS INTERESTED IN SOLVING THE PROBLEM.

Then please post some information or a hyperlink so that we can research this and see what you're speaking of.

 

[katsteve2012]

If I misconstrued your response, then I apologize.

 

[katsteve2012]

If I misconstrued your response, then I apologize.

Fair enough No. No apology is necessary, but I respect that you did.

 

[freyasman]

You realize that wasn't directed to you personally right?

Please refrain from insulting and making personal attacks on the other invitees. And really, the way you to speak to women is rather appalling. Do you speak to your wife that way?

I love my wife, I don't even know you people. Why the hell would I treat you the same as I do her?

As to how I speak to women, it's the same way I address men; I'm all about equality. If you don't like that, find yourself a burkha and I'll introduce to some guys I know in Afghanistan.

 

[freyasman]

Fair enough No. No apology is necessary, but I respect that you did.

I'm not going to re-read everything but it is entirely possible I snapped at you without thinking because I was busy chewing someone else's ass. Sometimes I grab a shotgun instead of a rifle.
I've done that before, so if that happened here, mea culpa.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

This thread is already mostly dead anyway.
There will be no discussion of any value when you allow extremist to be a part of it. They will take over and totem post, derail any beginnings of a discussion.
The thread was doomed anyway... FFS it started with the premise that whites, by nature, are racist.
So, yeah.... it's a joke thread.

I think you're projecting but acknowleging your own biases is good.

The thing you missed by jumping to an immediate conclusion is that I specifically mentioned events that have occured since 1964. What I alluded to is the same mindset and belief system as those white supremacists who founded the nation exists today in white racists. I don't understand why this is such a point of contention to you all unless you yourselves are racists and know that you're included in the group I'm speaking of. Otherwise it wouldn't even register with your conscience.

The point remains and forever will, that people who aren't racist don't engage in racist behavior. They don't use racist slurs, they don't discriminate against others based on race, etc. Whatever you think and feel is one thing however when those racist ideas that you think and feel turn into discriminatory actions, that's where the problem lies and that's what is still happening in spite of the passage of the Civl Rights Act of 1964. That is what this thread is about but includes the history of why the white supremacists thought the way they did originally all the way up to why they feel the way they do today in 2020.

 

[katsteve2012]

I'm not going to re-read everything but it is entirely possible I snapped at you without thinking because I was busy chewing someone else's ass. Sometimes I grab a shotgun instead of a rifle.
I've done that before, so if that happened here, mea culpa.

We all at one point have done so. I certainly have before.

 

[OldLady]

Does informal mean you're gonna use the N word?

Flopper, the Bull Ring debates are only open to those who have been invited. You can read and react, but posts are reported to be removed. It's just the rules, nothing personal.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

I love my wife, I don't even know you people. Why the hell would I treat you the same as I do her?

As to how I speak to women, it's the same way I address men; I'm all about equality. If you don't like that, find yourself a burkha and I'll introduce to some guys I know in Afghanistan.

Yeah, I didn't think so Does she know that you have such a low opinion of black people in general?

And you not knowing how to behave in mixed company has nothing to do with equality, it's a lack of basic social graces and skills.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

People like you are how cults manage to exist.

Gullible..... (smh)

I'm really curious about this. Where you the way you are before you entered the military or did you become this way due to being in the military?